Divorce, simply put

[PilgrimToChrist]

A couple of people did pick up on the OP's blurring of the distinction between the Old Law and the New. Two unbaptized people may get divorced, as in the Mosaic Law. But two baptized people cannot for any reason. If, for instance, there is abuse or infidelity, there can be separation -- even civil divorce -- but the mrriage remains ("what God has joined together, let no man rend asunder"). The "adultery exception" is probably a mistranslation or at least does not allow for remarriage but merely separation. Paul says that if two unbaptized people get married and then one comes to the faith but their spouse forbids them to practice it, divorce is possible.

But between Christians, there is no such thing as divorce -- separaton for grave reasons, yes -- but not divorce. Whoever enters into a second marriage commits adultery. Jesus was being very clear, not just talking about "unrealistic ideals".

 

[Rhamiel]

i am going to have a cup of earl gray and see how this thread goes
mmmm sounds like a plan

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I appreciate your zealousness for covenant!

We must remember that it is not a covenat between two people but three. Christian marriage is a Sacrament.

But what if?????

For instance, what about anullment?

Annulment says there was no true marriage to begin with. For instance, in US civil law, if the marriage was not consummated or there was no real consent, the marriage is null -- it didn't really happen. In Catholic Canon Law, there are more requirements to get married such as fidelity and desire for children. If you get married to a man who doesn't want kids and you realize a year into it that you really do want kids and he refuses to budge, you can obtain an annulment since producing children is the primary end of marriage. If you find out that your husband has been cheating on you the whole time you were married, you can obtain an anulment because he had no intention of being faithful to you. If your husband leaves you for a younger womn 10 years down the road, that's a much harder sell. Annulments are concerned with whether there were any defects on the wedding day which meant that the couple was never truly married. It is not the same as divorce (even though in the US in recent years it has been treated as such, causing much scandal).

What about abuse? (we risk our lives to keep a covenant? is there nothing
higher than covenant?)

Nothing says you have to live with your husband. Feel free to separate, get a restraining order and obtain full custody. But you should also try to get him to therapy and heal the marriage. But even if they marry someone else, you cannot -- even if he is a horrible person and you never want to see him again, and even if you are civilly divorced, you are still married to him and to be with another would be adultery.

 

[HAPMinistries]

But even if they marry someone else, you cannot -- even if he is a horrible person and you never want to see him again, and even if you are civilly divorced, you are still married to him and to be with another would be adultery.

Though I agree with 90% of what you are saying, when the unbelieving spouse departs the marriage, you are free. I still agree that our focus is to be 100% to reconcile the marriage, but once the spouse has married someone else, it is time for that person to have peace and allow them to move on with their life.

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

As I say this, yes, the Church today has allowed the bar to be set too low, never focus on marriages being restored. This also can be manipulated.

Simply put, a covenant is to be kept, otherwise, it may as well not exist. When you make a covenant, and then do not honor the covenant, the covenant is broken.

It is wrong to demand one person to keep a broken covenant. That 'honor' only belongs to the person who honors and keeps it. If you sign a contract to buy a car at a price, then the dealership decides to not give you the vehicle, are you still to pay for the vehicle you never received? Do you believe a just court would make you pay for a product you never received?

Likewise, to demand faithfulness of someone who has not received faithfulness is both absurd and destructive.

It is better to do as the scripture says, "let him depart." By remaining faithful to the broken covenant, you are not letting go.

 

[myways]

Likewise, to demand faithfulness of someone who has not received faithfulness is both absurd and destructive.

This is exactly what we do to Christ. And yet He remains faithful. This is our example.

 

[HAPMinistries]

This is exactly what we do to Christ. And yet He remains faithful. This is our example.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As I said, our focus should be on restoration of the marriage 100% of the time. BUT, what do you do with the unrepentant?

The unrepentant, you let them go, as Christ does.

Here is the example I have found in scripture:
Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.




Breaking it down:

Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

Caught in fornication.


Jer 3:7a And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me.

Given an opportunity to repent and restore the marriage/relationship.


Jer 3:7b But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

God judged by their fruit, and separated by 'divorce'.


Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

A new covenant, a covenant that was not only with Israel and Judah, but to the Gentiles.

 

[sunlover1]

Annulment says there was no true marriage to begin with. For instance, in US civil law, if the marriage was not consummated or there was no real consent, the marriage is null -- it didn't really happen. In Catholic Canon Law, there are more requirements to get married such as fidelity and desire for children. If you get married to a man who doesn't want kids and you realize a year into it that you really do want kids and he refuses to budge, you can obtain an annulment since producing children is the primary end of marriage. If you find out that your husband has been cheating on you the whole time you were married, you can obtain an anulment because he had no intention of being faithful to you. If your husband leaves you for a younger womn 10 years down the road, that's a much harder sell. Annulments are concerned with whether there were any defects on the wedding day which meant that the couple was never truly married. It is not the same as divorce (even though in the US in recent years it has been treated as such, causing much scandal).

Yes, annulment is .................. an interesting concept, to be sure.

But even if they marry someone else, you cannot -- even if he is a horrible person and you never want to see him again, and even if you are civilly divorced, you are still married to him and to be with another would be adultery.

Wow.
So then you're saying that if you're RC, you can just get your marriage annulled and it's
"like it never happened"
But if you're not RC,,.. and even if he were to marry someone else.. you're GUILTY!

Yeah, no.
One is the same as the other.
or you have double standards.

 

[sunlover1]

i am going to have a cup of earl gray and see how this thread goes
mmmm sounds like a plan

Sounds like a great plan LOL.

I don't think we've arrived at truth yet.
Bits and pieces of it but ... we need deeper!

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, annulment is .................. an interesting concept, to be sure.

Wow.
So then you're saying that if you're RC, you can just get your marriage annulled and it's
"like it never happened"
But if you're not RC,,.. and even if he were to marry someone else.. you're GUILTY!

Yeah, no.
One is the same as the other.
or you have double standards.

well non-christians can get divorced, because it is not a sacremental marriage, it is more of a social contract type thing, this is whys the jews in the OT could get a divorce
also, annulment means that the marriage was not an honest, something happened to make it not a true marriage, like if they are closely related or if one of them was allready married. I am not sure of all the other criterisa for an annulment, i am not married or even dating anyone so all this marriage and sex stuff is not something I have really looked into

 

[sunlover1]

also, annulment means that the marriage was not an honest, something happened to make it not a true marriage, like if they are closely related or if one of them was allready married. I am not sure of all the other criterisa for an annulment,

TBH most of us are pretty cognizant of what an annulment is.
It's a simple concept.
My beef was with the attitude of "our sect can have it "annulled" but your sect is GUILTY!
LOL
it's all so silly to me when folks separate themselves from other Christians as if they're
better. Sorry. It is what it is.

i am not married or even dating anyone so all this marriage and sex stuff is not something I have really looked into

Dating stinks ... find a girl and skip right ahead to marriage.

 

[Rhamiel]

could protestants get an annulment?
hmmm... I dunno... this is an interesting question

 

[Kepha]

I don't think we've arrived at truth yet.
Bits and pieces of it but ... we need deeper!

Incorrect. You don't think 'You' and your sola Scriptura brethren have arrived at the truth yet. My question is, when will you and who resolves it permanently for you all? So far the Scripture alone has done a bang up job with it and even having 2000 years to clear it up.

And Paul spoke a nice bit about Marriage so it would be foolish to suggest He never wanted the "if divorce is ever acceptable" teaching clear.

 

[sunlover1]

Incorrect. You don't think 'You' and your sola Scriptura brethren have arrived at the truth yet. My question is, when will you and who resolves it permanently for you all? So far the Scripture alone has done a bang up job with it and even having 2000 years to clear it up.

And Paul spoke a nice bit about Marriage so it would be foolish to suggest He never wanted the "if divorce is ever acceptable" teaching clear.

I'm not interested in your divisive rhetoric.
If you'd like to have a civil conversation please
use civility when posting.
And reword the question because it's unclear as written.

 

[sunlover1]

could protestants get an annulment?
hmmm... I dunno... this is an interesting question

It is interesing...

I think there's more here Rham,
More than
"Let that man abuse my daughter.
DAMN her if she gets away from him."


Just doesn't sound like My Father's voice.

(You will be a wonderful husband one day)

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Though I agree with 90% of what you are saying, when the unbelieving spouse departs the marriage, you are free. I still agree that our focus is to be 100% to reconcile the marriage, but once the spouse has married someone else, it is time for that person to have peace and allow them to move on with their life.

1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

As I say this, yes, the Church today has allowed the bar to be set too low, never focus on marriages being restored. This also can be manipulated.

Simply put, a covenant is to be kept, otherwise, it may as well not exist. When you make a covenant, and then do not honor the covenant, the covenant is broken.

It is wrong to demand one person to keep a broken covenant. That 'honor' only belongs to the person who honors and keeps it. If you sign a contract to buy a car at a price, then the dealership decides to not give you the vehicle, are you still to pay for the vehicle you never received? Do you believe a just court would make you pay for a product you never received?

Likewise, to demand faithfulness of someone who has not received faithfulness is both absurd and destructive.

It is better to do as the scripture says, "let him depart." By remaining faithful to the broken covenant, you are not letting go.

That is the passage I was referring o when I said that Paul talked about the marriage between a baptized person and an unbaptized person. Paul refers to "the unbelieving spouse" not two believing ones. The marriage between two baptized people is inseperable.

What you are saying i that if you know your wifeis having an affair, that gives you the right to have your own affair. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Also, this is why I said that marriage between Christians is the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and not a mere civil contract. "Until death do us part" is binding.

 

[sunlover1]

Also, this is why I said that marriage between Christians is the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and not a mere civil contract. "Until death do us part" is binding.

Blood covenant is even more impressive.

Is there anything higher than a blood covenant?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Yes, annulment is .................. an interesting concept, to be sure.

Wow.
So then you're saying that if you're RC, you can just get your marriage annulled and it's
"like it never happened"
But if you're not RC,,.. and even if he were to marry someone else.. you're GUILTY!

Yeah, no.
One is the same as the other.
or you have double standards.

An annulment doesn't simply say the marriage is "like it never happened" it is a ruling that says the marriage never happened. To make a comparison to civl law, I could go before a judge to change my name. Beforethe ruling, my name is "Bob", then the judge orders a name change andnow my name is "Joe" -- the judge actually did something. If I go before the judge accused of killing my husband, the judge's ruling does not change anything but seeks to find the truth of what happened that night.

Divorce is like the first, annulment is like the second. Christian marriage is breakable only by death but this does not mean that every putative marriage is a true marriage -- just as not every person who gets arrested is actually guilty of the crime. That is where the courts come in, not to change reality but to understand what happened.

 

[Kepha]

I'm not interested in your divisive rhetoric.
If you'd like to have a civil conversation please
use civility when posting.
And reword the question because it's unclear as written.

You made a statement using the 'we' word which seemed to inevitably involve us Catholics since the thread never specified who it was speaking to. So I naturally took offense and found it necessary to address this.

Just please be more careful about who you're speaking for when using the 'we' word in the future.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

TBH most of us are pretty cognizant of what an annulment is.
It's a simple concept.

You make clear that you don't understand what an annulment is.

My beef was with the attitude of "our sect can have it "annulled" but your sect is GUILTY!
LOL
it's all so silly to me when folks separate themselves from other Christians as if they're
better. Sorry. It is what it is.

If we're both in sects, then we are both screwed.

I don't recall anyone saying Catholics were better people because we mae delicious beer. We are simply recalling the facts.

Dating stinks ... find a girl and skip right ahead to marriage.

Courting FTW!

 

[sunlover1]

You made a statement using the 'we' word which seemed to inevitably involve us Catholics since the thread never specified who it was speaking to. So I naturally took offense and found it necessary to address this.

Just please be more careful about who you're speaking for when using the 'we' word in the future.

Not quite sure why you're accusing me but w/e

Here's the conversation, I'll let the reader judge.
I'm looking for truth in love.. and help. Period.
(guess what " we" means to me )

peace out

i am going to have a cup of earl gray and see how this thread goes
mmmm sounds like a plan

Sounds like a great plan LOL.

I don't think we've arrived at truth yet.
Bits and pieces of it but ... we need deeper!