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Divorce, simply put

PilgrimToChrist

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could protestants get an annulment?
hmmm... I dunno... this is an interesting question

Protestants are not Catholics and so are not under Canon Law.

They can't mke up their own kangaroo court tribunals or have the spouses decide for themselves whether or not they have a true marriage so there would be no one to judge. So even if some putative Protestant marriages are not true marriages, there is no one to rule otherwise.
 
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sunlover1

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You make clear that you don't understand what an annulment is.
Not at all.
Seen it done, studied about it and in fact my
stepmom (who was married twice before my dad)
has been through it.
Anyone can google it and study it.
As i said, very interesting and a simple concept.

If we're both in sects, then we are both screwed.
Not screwed, just foolish and out of God's will.
I don't belong to one. Christian is what I be.
I don't recall anyone saying Catholics were better people because we mae delicious beer. We are simply recalling the facts.
Beer?
If you guys are responsible for Heineken I'll join today.
:blush:

Courting FTW!
:clap:
 
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sunlover1

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Protestants are not Catholics and so are not under Canon Law.

They can't mke up their own kangaroo court tribunals or have the spouses decide for themselves whether or not they have a true marriage so there would be no one to judge. So even if some putative Protestant marriages are not true marriages, there is no one to rule otherwise.
Sure there is!
:D

I do not think Jesus ever said divorce was allowed. :cool:
OR.. it 'could' be that it's one of those many many things He did that wasn't recorded.
:p
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Divorce happens. Wish it wasn't so, but it is.
The Orthodox Church allows for this and has a process of restoration and the possibility of remarriage. The entirety of it is penitent in nature, even if one is the victim of spousal abandonment/adultery...we all play a part.

Sometimes there is a marriage, and it falls apart. This is true between spouses, friends, and between us and God. We CAN walk away from covenant- happens all the time.

Should divorce be the unpardonable sin? Should we pretend that there never was a marriage so we can skirt the issue?

No offense to my RCC brethren, but anullment to me just seems illogical and lacking boldness to confont failure and restoration.
But that's my impression.
 
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sunlover1

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Divorce happens. Wish it wasn't so, but it is.
The Orthodox Church allows for this and has a process of restoration and the possibility of remarriage. The entirety of it is penitent in nature, even if one is the victim of spousal abandonment/adultery...we all play a part.

Sometimes there is a marriage, and it falls apart. This is true between spouses, friends, and between us and God. We CAN walk away from covenant- happens all the time.
Well looky here, the voice of reason.
:thumbsup:

Should divorce be the unpardonable sin? Should we pretend that there never was a marriage so we can skirt the issue?
I don't see truth in either of these ..
Attended an AOG church when I was first "reborn".
They wouldn't let me help in the nursery. Guess why.


No offense to my RCC brethren, but anullment to me just seems illogical and lacking boldness to confont failure and restoration.
But that's my impression.
Speaking the truth in love.
Very nice.
:thumbsup:
 
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98cwitr

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Divorce happens. Wish it wasn't so, but it is.
The Orthodox Church allows for this and has a process of restoration and the possibility of remarriage. The entirety of it is penitent in nature, even if one is the victim of spousal abandonment/adultery...we all play a part.

Sometimes there is a marriage, and it falls apart. This is true between spouses, friends, and between us and God. We CAN walk away from covenant- happens all the time.

Should divorce be the unpardonable sin? Should we pretend that there never was a marriage so we can skirt the issue?

No offense to my RCC brethren, but anullment to me just seems illogical and lacking boldness to confont failure and restoration.
But that's my impression.

If you at least acknowledge it as a sin you're doing a lot better than most ^_^
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Well looky here, the voice of reason.
:thumbsup:
From me, no less..;)


I don't see truth in either of these ..
Attended an AOG church when I was first "reborn".
They wouldn't let me help in the nursery. Guess why.
They take that whole provision for deacons and bishops and apply it to all church ministry. Very unfortunate.



Speaking the truth in love.
Very nice.
:thumbsup:
Thanks.
Divorced Christians need grace and restoration. It's one of THE most difficult things for a devout and sincere believer to go through, with all of the attendant feelings of shame, failure, etc- not to mention how one can actually forgive and move on- especially with the betrayal of adultery.

And it is happening to MILLIONS of Christians.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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If you at least acknowledge it as a sin you're doing a lot better than most ^_^
It is 'sin'- hamartia, 'to miss the mark.'

It requires neither condemnation nor justification/rationalization. Each party is 100% at fault for their part, and God will restore and instruct. He is mighty to save, even if a marriage cannot be saved.
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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I think the kids suffer the most. When their parents divorce the children pay for their parent's debt. It can be like a curse.
True- but parents who are restored help their kids to restore. Most of the brokenness for kids, in my estimation, seems to take place after the fact, by virtue of parents resentfulness toward one another, parents backsliding into alcohol/drug abuse, promiscuity- the kids are watching.

I know that's heavy trip to lay on parents, but we are held to a stricter judgement and answer for our parenting.

All the more reason for churches to restore their divorced members
 
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HAPMinistries

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That is the passage I was referring o when I said that Paul talked about the marriage between a baptized person and an unbaptized person. Paul refers to "the unbelieving spouse" not two believing ones. The marriage between two baptized people is inseperable.

What you are saying i that if you know your wifeis having an affair, that gives you the right to have your own affair. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Also, this is why I said that marriage between Christians is the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and not a mere civil contract. "Until death do us part" is binding.

Two wrongs do not make a right, but one wrong breaks a covenant.

After the covenant is broken, you are set free, in peace.

With God as our example:
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


If God declares a person's faith to be 'dead' apart from works, how can you declare A marriage without works to be alive?

God is consistent from beginning to end:
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

To restore a relationship, repentance is a must.
When a person or nation decides to stay unrepentant:

Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8a And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce...


God lets it go, and expects the same, in both the OT and NT

Deu 24:4a Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife...
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart...



BUT
I absolutely agree with you assessment that 2 Christians should never get divorced. Of course, a Christian would recognize Adultery as sin, and refrain and repent of it if it happened.

I do not agree with your assessment on the people who were left and abandoned for other relationships.

As Deut says, you are not to return to that marriage.

Jesus even openly declared about marriage 2 very important facts of life here:
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.


Jesus recognized that this woman had no husband.
Jesus recognized 5 marriages.
Jesus recognized her current living in adultery, not married to the person she was sleeping with.

Your doctrine I find does not match scripture.
 
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HAPMinistries

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I do not think Jesus ever said divorce was allowed. :cool:

Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Yes, it is allowed, and if your spouse commits fornication, you go out free.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Yes, it is allowed, and if your spouse commits fornication, you go out free.

Sounds like an annulment to me. :cool:
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Not at all.
Seen it done, studied about it and in fact my
stepmom (who was married twice before my dad)
has been through it.
Anyone can google it and study it.
As i said, very interesting and a simple concept.

Then why are you trying to make it seem like Catholic divorce?

Not screwed, just foolish and out of God's will.
I don't belong to one. Christian is what I be.

Me too :p

Beer?
If you guys are responsible for Heineken I'll join today.
:blush:

Have some Chimay or other Trappist beer.

6a00d83454b13169e201348027ac60970c-800wi


Liquor is quicker:

distillery-in-voiron-6.jpg


Carthusian monks of the Grand Chartreuse producing their famous liqueur. This is also the monastery featured in the film "Into Great Silence". Carthusian monks are essentially hermits in community, much like Eastern monks, and they are noted for their reticence.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Two wrongs do not make a right, but one wrong breaks a covenant.

So even though Jesus says, "Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." (Mt 19:6), you are saying that it's perfectly possible for man to "put asunder" the marriage and indeed this happens if one spouse is unfaithful.

So if your husband or wife cheats on you, you are saying that means you are no longer married? At what point does the marriage disappear? When he looks lustfully at another woman? If he kisses her? If he sleeps with her? If he abandons you for six months to be with her? If he pretends to marry her? Does that mean if he breaks it off with her to get back together with you that you have to get married all over again? Would you start counting your anniversaries at 'one' again?

After the covenant is broken, you are set free, in peace.

The marriage covenant between Christians can only be broken by death.

With God as our example:
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


If God declares a person's faith to be 'dead' apart from works, how can you declare A marriage without works to be alive?

Huh?

I am simply saying that if your husband cheats on you, he is still your husband. You are saying that he suddenly is not your husband.

God is consistent from beginning to end:
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

To restore a relationship, repentance is a must.
When a person or nation decides to stay unrepentant:

Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8a And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce...


God lets it go, and expects the same, in both the OT and NT

You are applying metaphorical language to something which is spoken of very clear. Jesus says there is no such thing as divorce and if someone tries to marry another, they are committing adultery. You say that you can twist Scripture to say that Jesus is wrong, that divorce really does exist. I find the plain words of Scripture much more reasonable.


Deu 24:4a Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife...
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart...

Which does not deal with Christians. Paul says "the unbelieving spouse", not "the believing spouse". If both spouses are believers, that is if they are baptized, there can be no divorce.

BUT
I absolutely agree with you assessment that 2 Christians should never get divorced. Of course, a Christian would recognize Adultery as sin, and refrain and repent of it if it happened.

But you are saying that adultery -- such as re-marriage -- is acceptable and not a sin.

I do not agree with your assessment on the people who were left and abandoned for other relationships.

As Deut says, you are not to return to that marriage.

You should not return to your wife? Deuteronomy is dealing with unbaptized people, with non-Christians, where divorce is possible by Divine dispensation. But with Christians, there is no such thing as divorce and so yes, you are supposed to return to your wife if you have an affair.

Jesus even openly declared about marriage 2 very important facts of life here:
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.


Jesus recognized that this woman had no husband.
Jesus recognized 5 marriages.
Jesus recognized her current living in adultery, not married to the person she was sleeping with.

The woman at the well was not a baptized Christian but a Samaritan. She only even knew Jesus was the Messiah when He explained it to her at the well.

Your doctrine I find does not match scripture.

Your doctrine does not match scripture.

Mt 19:1-10 said:
And it came to pass when Jesus had ended these words, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judea, beyond Jordan. And great multitudes followed him: and he healed them there. And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.

Under Natural Law, divorce is forbidden ("from the beginning it was not so") but under the Old Law, God gave a dispensation ("Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives") in order to prevent the violent from killing their wives so that they would be freed from them. This was what was under the Old Law, but in the New Law -- just as elsewhere Jesus says, "You have heard it said... but I say unto you" -- that this dispensation no longer exists "for any reason", except for the case of fornication (adultery). But still, if a husband leaves his wife for another woman, she is married to him and if she attempts to marry someone else, both she and her would-be new husband sin in their attempt at bigamy.
 
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PilgrimToChrist

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Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Yes, it is allowed, and if your spouse commits fornication, you go out free.

Not to marry again though. As I said, you can let your spouse go if there is a grave reason to do so (such as that he is violent), you don't have to live with them, you don't have to let them see your children, you could even get a civil divorce. But you are still technically married and cannot marry another person.

1Cor 7:10-11 said:
But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if she depart, that she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife.

Only death breaks a Sacramental marriage:

Rom 7:2-3 said:
For the woman that hath an husband, whilst her husband liveth is bound to the law. But if her husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. Therefore, whilst her husband liveth, she shall be called an adulteress, if she be with another man: but if her husband be dead, she is delivered from the law of her husband; so that she is not an adulteress, if she be with another man.
 
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Rhamiel

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Protestants are not Catholics and so are not under Canon Law.

They can't mke up their own kangaroo court tribunals or have the spouses decide for themselves whether or not they have a true marriage so there would be no one to judge. So even if some putative Protestant marriages are not true marriages, there is no one to rule otherwise.
they could go to the Catholic Church for annulments lol
 
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