Divorce, simply put

[HAPMinistries]

A "real" Christian sometimes stumbles and commits fornication or divorce before heart wrenching repentance...
Ask me how I know.

How do you know?

The amount of time in allowing someone to repent is debatable, personally, I went straight to her, and said I would not bring it up, I would forgive it and let it completely go, the only understanding is it never happens again. What she said at that time was it for me.

I would have allowed her back in my life later, had she repented later, but as far as liberty, she wanted to leave, she left, and after that moment, I let her go.

 

[sunlover1]

How do you know?

You don't want to know.

The amount of time in allowing someone to repent is debatable, personally, I went straight to her, and said I would not bring it up, I would forgive it and let it completely go, the only understanding is it never happens again. What she said at that time was it for me.

I would have allowed her back in my life later, had she repented later, but as far as liberty, she wanted to leave, she left, and after that moment, I let her go.

[/QUOTE]
I think you did well.

 

[sunlover1]

How do you know?

The amount of time in allowing someone to repent is debatable, personally, I went straight to her, and said I would not bring it up, I would forgive it and let it completely go, the only understanding is it never happens again. What she said at that time was it for me.

I would have allowed her back in my life later, had she repented later, but as far as liberty, she wanted to leave, she left, and after that moment, I let her go.

Reminds me.
What if she/he committed adultery 2 years ago and it was never addressed and
since he/she denies it, it cannot be resolved?
Den what?

 

[98cwitr]

Reminds me.
What if she/he committed adultery 2 years ago and it was never addressed and
since he/she denies it, it cannot be resolved?
Den what?

find some proof

 

[BreadAlone]

Interesting thoughts Breadalone
God loved us so much that "while we were yet sinners" He sent His son to die
for us, and we, who are made in His image, forgive those who sin against us.
Unrepentant or no.
Be blessed.

Those whose sins we do retain condemned and guilty shall remain (love that hymn).

If someone is unrepentant, they are resisting the work of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit and guilty of an unforgivable sin. If someone is living in a perpetual state of adultery against their spouse, then the other spouse may have no other recourse but divorce (in the hopes, of course, that the divorce will be a wake-up call for repentance!).

That would be the Biblical approach, I think.

 

[SummaScriptura]

You two who started today's homily, please, come back in 10 years and tell us again, ...if you can.

 

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>we do not say that you have to be with someone who is abusive, sometimes you have to seperate from your husband or wife because of abuse but you can not marry some one else because you are still married <snip>

You're forgetting something, you've just defined divorce: separation.

Women in biblical times did not have the luxury to "ah, I'll just live separately for a time, la ti da..." That would mean starving or turning to prostitution unless there was family to take them in, which with older women there was not.

Come back to me when you get all the wrinkles worked out.

 

[HAPMinistries]

Reminds me.
What if she/he committed adultery 2 years ago and it was never addressed and
since he/she denies it, it cannot be resolved?
Den what?

Fornication can be drawn at straws massively.

Now we are in personal opinion.

*Do I believe a person has grounds to get divorced because of a rumor? no

*Do I believe when a rumor is spoken, does a spouse have the right to ask their spouse to refrain from certain company for a certain amount of time, until the rumor is found out? yes, based on:
1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

But more directly to your quote, you can not address fornication until you are aware of it. So if it happens 1 week, 2 months, 3 years, or 40 years ago, when the other spouse finds out, they have every right to address it fully.

If the spouse repents, and already there is a time showing they have refrained, then there will be hurt feelings, but the repentance is real, you already know this. It certainly should be forgiven.

If the spouse in question continually denies the fornication, and there are many witnesses to condemn, there I believe it is best for the spouse to decide, because it is hard both ways. A simple solution would be, to ask if the spouse 'had' committed adultery, would they be repentant? They do not have to admit guilt, but could express their wishes.

That is just me though.

 

[MamaZ]

normally Baptists seem to understand the covenants are important, God joined two people together... and you think that we can destrory the works of God?
anyway, no there is no divorce, not that it is not allowed, but that you can not have it, it is not a real thing
Jesus did not say "divorce is bad" he said that if you get a divorce and marry someone esle you commite adultry

we do not say that you have to be with someone who is abusive, sometimes you have to seperate from your husband or wife because of abuse
but you can not marry some one else because you are still married
stick with Jesus, he said if you divorce and remarry you commite adultry

ya divorce verses anullment.. bout the same diff just a different word used.

 

[SummaScriptura]

ya divorce verses anullment.. bout the same diff just a different word used.

Agreed.

 

[HAPMinistries]

n/a

 

[Rhamiel]

ya divorce verses anullment.. bout the same diff just a different word used.

one is a disolution of a marriage
the other one means that the marriage was never legit to begian with

not the same thing, it is like with contracts, you can break a contract or through fraud a contract might not be binding

one is ending something
the other was never legit to start with

 

[MamaZ]

So when they say I do in front of witnesses and God it is not ligit?

 

[Uphill Battle]

but that is what a divorce is, to act like it never happened

I can assure you it is not.

I never forget that I ended up divorced. I'm not even the one who left, but the stigma still exists, even though I am now married to a good woman who is my perfect partner.

do you know how many people with failed marriages, sometimes through no fault of their own, are judged and degraded by the rule quoting self appointed arbiters? (this is not sect specific in intent)

we as Christians tear these people apart. Limb from limb, and we supposedly do so in God's name.

it's reprehenisble.

Agreed.

thirded. (word?!?)

 

[JacktheCatholic]

With the high rate of divorces it seems that marriage is no longer seen as Holy by the majority. It is a shame if this is true because it also means that the majority no longer sees God as important.

In many ways the state of the families in a country depicts that country's health IMO.

Regarding annulments... there seems to be ignorance as to the specifics of what an annulment is and why it is needed. Maybe there is also the factor of people being hard of heart. I know the RCC has many that fall in to this scenario and it is sad. Partly because I see it in my own family.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

It's just about to the point where I consider Catholicism and Protestantism two separate religions.

The more you study, the more I'm sure you will come to this conclusion. This is why we spend so much time talking past each other on GT and in the real world. If we stay on the shallow level, we all say that we love Jesus, that is why we are here, but pretty much everything else is different. We share the same Scriptures (at least the 66 we have in common) but how we approach them seems to differ dramatically. Catholicism is the Gospel, the various sects are corruptions of that Gospel.

The whole idea that you can't divorce someone, even if they threaten your life, beat you to near-death, verbally abuse you, harm your children, etc, is simply disgusting. To heck with the pope, I'll follow Jesus.

Who said anything about any popes? You say you want to follow Jesus, Jesus says that remarriage is adultery. St. Paul says that remarriage is only possible if a non-believer leaves a Christian spouse.

Certainly separation is warranted in some cases, such as in the case of abuse. But the marriage still remains. Divorce is contrary to the Natural Law, but God made some exceptions under the Old Law, which Jesus revoked when He taught the Sermon on the Mount. Marriage should not be entered into lightly because it can only be fully dissolved by death. This is why the Apostles were shocked at Jesus' teaching.

So the real quetion is whether to believe what Jesus said or just dismiss it as "idealism". Do we say that divorce is "sad" and "unfortunate" but "necessary" or follow Jesus and say that divorce is only possible in some rare cases (and never between two Christians) that God has established and that attempted remarriage is a grave sin? Do we follow Jesus or our own human "ethics"?

And it hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, excepting for the cause of fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.

Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery. His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I think she equates baptism with salvation.

Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also

Nevertheless, what does the topic of divorce have to do with salvation?

Baptism makes a new person. There is a difference between the baptized and the unbaptized. When St. Paul refers to the "unbelieving" spouse, he is referring not to a spouse who has committed a sin but rather the unbaptized, the non-Christian. "HAPMinistries" says that anyone who commits the slightest sin is no longer a Christian and therefore can divorce their Christian (sinless) spouse. But this is not the true standard because we all sin, yet we are all still believers because we trust in Christ's mercy and forgiveness. We are believers because we are baptized.

But to them that are married, not I but the Lord commandeth, that the wife depart not from her husband. And if she depart, that she remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband. And let not the husband put away his wife.

For to the rest I speak, not the Lord. If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she consent to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace.

For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

This exception where a non-Christian spouse leaves a Christian spouse is known as "the Pauline Exception". Religion is a higher good than marriage. But the Christian spouse is not supposed to leave the non-Christian spouse but rather to pray for them and to try to convert them to the faith. The Pauline Exception only applies to one Christian and one non-Christian spouse, when the non-Christian spouse leaves the Christian one. Not everyone who commits a sin is considered a non-Christian.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

So when they say I do in front of witnesses and God it is not ligit?

If a man holds a gun to a woman's head and forces her to say "I do", are they married? No. Because there was no true consent on the woman's part.

That is an extreme example -- that forced marriage is not true marriage. This is also why child marriage is not true marriage, even if an 9 year old says "I do" to her 30 year old "husband", it doesn't count. If you wake up with a hangover and a marriage certificate from an Elvis impersonator, it doesn't count.

But there are other ways in which the wedding can be defective.

For instance, what if one of the spouses was already married? They could not marry another person but rather the new marriage would be invalid because they were not really free to marry. This is often true with couples who have been civilly divorced.

If one of the spouses has no real intention of committing themselves for life but just wants a "starter marriage", that's not really a marriage because marriage is for life. If one of the spouses doesn't want kids, that is not really a marriage because marriage exists for the procreation of children. A couple who gets married with no intention of monogamy (ie. polyamory, swinging, open marriage, etc.) doesn't really marry. A marriage contracted entirely to obtain a visa with no intention of actually living as a married couple would be invalid. A spouse who conceals something very important (say, that he is a felon on the run, has AIDS, cannot have children, is addicted to cocaine, is a homosexual, etc.) commits fraud and therefore they do not marry (this would also be grounds for a civil annulment).

These are cases in which the marriage was actually invalid, that nothing happened when they said "I do". Therefore, they were never actually married. There had to be some defect at the time of the wedding which would render the marriage invalid in order for a (valid) Decree of Nullity to be granted. The fact that your husband was a jerk or cheated on you doesn't count. What God has joined together, let no man rend asunder -- there is no such thing as Christian divorce. No power on earth can break a true marriage (ratified and consummated), no matter what civil courts declare.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

That's what Jesus is recorded as having said when He gave an exception for "porneia."

Which doesn't mean "adultery". That is why there are two different words used in that passage:

&#7952;&#947;&#8060; &#948;&#8050; &#955;&#941;&#947;&#969; &#8017;&#956;&#8150;&#957; &#8005;&#964;&#953; &#960;&#8118;&#962; &#8001; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#973;&#969;&#957; &#964;&#8052;&#957; &#947;&#965;&#957;&#945;&#8150;&#954;&#945; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#949;&#954;&#964;&#8056;&#962; &#955;&#972;&#947;&#959;&#965; &#960;&#959;&#961;&#957;&#949;&#943;&#945;&#962; &#960;&#959;&#953;&#949;&#8150; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#8052;&#957; &#956;&#959;&#953;&#967;&#949;&#965;&#952;&#8134;&#957;&#945;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#8003;&#962; &#7952;&#8048;&#957; &#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#949;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#941;&#957;&#951;&#957; &#947;&#945;&#956;&#942;&#963;&#8131; &#956;&#959;&#953;&#967;&#8118;&#964;&#945;&#953;.

If you cheat on your spouse, you do not commit fornication, you commit adultery. So then why does Jesus use the word "&#960;&#959;&#961;&#957;&#949;&#943;&#945;&#962;" instead of "&#956;&#959;&#953;&#967;&#8118;&#964;&#945;&#953;"? "&#960;&#959;&#961;&#957;&#949;&#943;&#945;" refers to any illicit sexual activity, such as illicit or invalid marriage. He is saying that if you are in an illicit marriage, you can put away (He doesn't say divorce, since it's not really divorce) your spouse because it isn't a real marriage to begin with.

John the Baptist was mentioned already. Herod was "married" to his brother's ex-wife Herodias. John spoke out, saying that they were not married but living in sin (porneia, or committing fornication) and he lost his head for that.

We commit fornication by having sex with someone when neither of us are married. If one or both of us are married, and not to each other, it is adultery. What Jesus is saying is that "But I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, [unless you are not legally married but committing] fornication, maketh her to commit adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery."

 

[BL2KTN]

The more you study, the more I'm sure you will come to this conclusion. This is why we spend so much time talking past each other on GT and in the real world. If we stay on the shallow level, we all say that we love Jesus, that is why we are here, but pretty much everything else is different. We share the same Scriptures (at least the 66 we have in common) but how we approach them seems to differ dramatically. Catholicism is the Gospel, the various sects are corruptions of that Gospel.

Then let me unequivocally reject the gospel. I'll take Jesus instead.

Who said anything about any popes? You say you want to follow Jesus, Jesus says that remarriage is adultery. St. Paul says that remarriage is only possible if a non-believer leaves a Christian spouse.

False. Jesus says divorcing a woman, except for sexual immorality, makes her an adultress and that anyone who marries a divorced woman, except for sexual immorality, is an adulterer.

Prove otherwise.

Certainly separation is warranted in some cases, such as in the case of abuse. But the marriage still remains. Divorce is contrary to the Natural Law, but God made some exceptions under the Old Law, which Jesus revoked when He taught the Sermon on the Mount. Marriage should not be entered into lightly because it can only be fully dissolved by death. This is why the Apostles were shocked at Jesus' teaching.

Jesus said otherwise:

But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

You follow the RCC's teaching. I'll follow Jesus'.

Which doesn't mean "adultery". That is why there are two different words used in that passage

"Porneia" refers simply to a broad range of "sexual immorality." Go learn some Koine Greek.

The RCC and its perversion of Yeshua's message absolutely makes me want to vomit.

BL