Divorce due to abuse

[jobob]

Sorry.....if there is nothing but bad fruit (anger, etc) these folks are NOT christian.......

For a good tree does not bring forth corrupt fruit, neither does a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good. And an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth the evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
(Luk 6:43-45)

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

We all sin.........how convienent......

Shall we tell the woman who just had her head beaten in .......''well, we all sin sister"

The man who does NOT show fruit is NOT a christian........plain and simple

I did not say that she should endure the abuse, in fact I have stated quite the opposite. I have only stated that if the abuser claims to be a Christian then the abused should not remarry.

READ THIS AGAIN and tell me if you think we are NOT sure........

You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
(Mat 7:16-20)

So all of your fruit is perfect? You never sin? That is ridiculous on it's very face. You are using that scripture to promote a doctrine of perfection and that is not Biblical. What if this is the only bad fruit, he is gracious at work, he is a polite driver, he is submissive to the others in his church? You do not know his heart and cannot claim to.

Sorry.....if there is nothing but bad fruit (anger, etc) these folks are NOT christian.......

You do not know what other fruit is in ther lives, and therefore cannot judge them on this one thing. Like I said, the abused that has a spouse that claims to be a believer should not remarry. You cannot show otherwise and it is better to be sure than to lead yourself into sin. Your claiming that we can be sure is fallacy as only God knows men's hearts.

 

[SirKenin]

Looks pretty plain to me.

It means that if a non-Christian man is happy living with a Christian wife, she should not divorce him. But if he feels that he can't deal with being married to a righteous woman, can't handle living an upright life, she should let him leave.

It says NOTHING about abuse. It's not written. It's not implied. Putting words in the mouth of the Bible is a deadly sin.

 

[jobob]

I did not say that she should endure the abuse, in fact I have stated quite the opposite. I have only stated that if the abuser claims to be a Christian then the abused should not remarry.



So all of your fruit is perfect? You never sin? That is ridiculous on it's very face. You are using that scripture to promote a doctrine of perfection and that is not Biblical. What if this is the only bad fruit, he is gracious at work, he is a polite driver, he is submissive to the others in his church? You do not know his heart and cannot claim to.




You do not know what other fruit is in ther lives, and therefore cannot judge them on this one thing. Like I said, the abused that has a spouse that claims to be a believer should not remarry. You cannot show otherwise and it is better to be sure than to lead yourself into sin. Your claiming that we can be sure is fallacy as only God knows men's hearts.

Im sorry, are you changing the WORDS of the text itself?

again READ this passage.

You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.
(Mat 7:16-20)

A christian CANNOT have the fruit of HATE ........which is what it takes to beat a woman

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

We have only one fruit to judge this person on, did you read the rest of my post? You are in fact taking that verse completely out of context, the preceding verse speaks of false prophets and the verses you quoted are how to identify FALSE PROPHETS. The opening lines of that chapter would be more applicable in this case, lets have a look at those shall we?

Matthew 7:
1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

You stated you were leaving this thread earlier and quoted Christ's words "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". You are doing just that here, you are casting stones. You take scripture out of context to show that we can tell if someone is a Christian. If we were to judge you by your fruits would you hold up to the test? Or would we simply be then judged by the same standard. You are elvating abuse to a higher level than other sin here, can you explain that? And also explain how you are using the method of discering false prophets to judge a person that has not claimed to be a prophet?

 

[jobob]

For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), proving what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
(Eph 5:8-11)

 

[jobob]

Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law. But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Gal 5:19-26)

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Are you without sin? You are promoting a doctrine of perfectionism here and that is by no means scriptural. I have already shown that you have taken Matt 7 out of context. Do you sin? If so can you show me in the scripture how your sin is less than the sin of an abuser?

 

[Galadriel]

It means that if a non-Christian man is happy living with a Christian wife, she should not divorce him. But if he feels that he can't deal with being married to a righteous woman, can't handle living an upright life, she should let him leave.

It says NOTHING about abuse. It's not written. It's not implied. Putting words in the mouth of the Bible is a deadly sin.

WEll, if the man was a Christian in the first place, should he be treating his wife like less than an animal? If he feels he has the need to beat her and treat her like garbage? I question his genuiness, if he REALLY is a Chrisitan man, shouldn't he be bettering himself, shouldn't he be coming around? Lots of these women have stuck it out for some time with no sign of betterment on the abusers part. Its plain the man is not seeking to better anything but his own selfish abusive ways, and that is not Christian in the least. Hes not even trying.

 

[jobob]

Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law. But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Gal 5:19-26)

 

[jobob]

Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law. But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Gal 5:19-26)

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

WEll, if the man was a Christian in the first place, should he be treating his wife like less than an animal? If he feels he has the need to beat her and treat her like garbage? I question his genuiness, if he REALLY is a Chrisitan man, shouldn't he be bettering himself, shouldn't he be coming around? Lots of these women have stuck it out for some time with no sign of betterment on the abusers part. Its plain the man is not seeking to better anything but his own selfish abusive ways, and that is not Christian in the least. Hes not even trying.

I did not say that the abused should stay (lets stop using women, men are abused as well), I said that if the spouse claims to be a Christian then re-marraige would be against the scripture and no-one has managed to prove otherwise. I too would question is genuineness, and his dedication, but I would not put myself on the level of God and question his salvation. For the simple reason that we cannot know another's standing with God then if the abuser claims to be a Christians then re-marriage would not be scriptural.

 

[jobob]

I did not say that the abused should stay (lets stop using women, men are abused as well), I said that if the spouse claims to be a Christian then re-marraige would be against the scripture and no-one has managed to prove otherwise. I too would question is genuineness, and his dedication, but I would not put myself on the level of God and question his salvation. For the simple reason that we cannot know another's standing with God then if the abuser claims to be a Christians then re-marriage would not be scriptural.

brother WE can know.........we can KNOW the ONLY way we are instructed to know........by thier FRUITS........

Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law. But those belonging to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become glory-seeking, provoking one another, envying one another.
(Gal 5:19-26)

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

jobob: You are not going to prove your point. You cannot know a man's heart and claiming different is placing yourself on a level equal to God. We all sin, we are fallen and saved only by grace. You are espusing a doctrine of perfection. Do you mean to say that you never get angry? That would be a lie, it is impossible to never be angry, and yet it is listed in your quotes. Also please note that adultery is the first in that list and adultery is what re-marriage is if the initial divorce was not for Biblical reasons. You have successfully erorded your own argument.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

brother WE can know.........we can KNOW the ONLY way we are instructed to know........by thier FRUITS........

So according to the way you present this, let me take your logic out to another end. Divorce not in accordance with scripture and subsequent remarriage is adultery, the person was not a Christian to begin with then. Can you see how you logic is flawed? When applied to the debate at hand you condem the person who remarries, the one you are defending in the same manner you condem the abuser. The rules do not varry, they are the same for everyone. Your logic is flawed.

 

[E-beth]

First of all, this thread is going beyond the limits of reasonable debate. If you can't take someone disagrreing with you, then either don't read, put them on ignore, or go offline to be mad and rant.

Many years ago, I was a virgin bride of a Christian man. My college sweetheart. I was faithful to him throughout our marriage. He was not. For whatever reason, be it anger, mental illness, etc, he began to get abusive. First it was verbal, then emotional, then physical. About seven years ago, he became so angry that I accidently dropped a broom on his foot that he picked the broomstick up and popped me so many times in the head and stomache that I miscarried a baby I didn't even know I had. Still, I stayed with him, because "God hates divorce". So I suffered in silence, lying to my friends and family about how bruises came to be. My self-esteem was in the toilet. My prayers became, "dear Lord, please just let one of us DIE!"

What was my crime? I was faithful, I maintained my marriage covenant. My reward was a husband that not only beat me and screamed at me whenever life didn't go the way he wanted, but also one that cheated on me with prostitutes.

Finally he took me to divorce court. He didn't want to live with someone who had learned Tae Bo and who wouldn't forgive and forget like she had a billion times before.

I maintain that I am blameless in teh shattering of my marriage. And I cannot believe a God of love would want me to remain loveless and celibate my whole life because of a past marriage to someone so seeped in sin that no one else mattered.

Malachi 2
16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [1] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

To me, this passage equates violence with being unfaithful. No one should have to live in a dangerous situation or remain loveless. God wants us to be happy, and in situations of abuse, I cannot see how God would consider a second chance at being loved as a sin. But sure, I can perfectly understand how God could command my ex husband to never remarry.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

First of all, this thread is going beyond the limits of reasonable debate. If you can't take someone disagrreing with you, then either don't read, put them on ignore, or go offline to be mad and rant.

Many years ago, I was a virgin bride of a Christian man. My college sweetheart. I was faithful to him throughout our marriage. He was not. For whatever reason, be it anger, mental illness, etc, he began to get abusive. First it was verbal, then emotional, then physical. About seven years ago, he became so angry that I accidently dropped a broom on his foot that he picked the broomstick up and popped me so many times in the head and stomache that I miscarried a baby I didn't even know I had. Still, I stayed with him, because "God hates divorce". So I suffered in silence, lying to my friends and family about how bruises came to be. My self-esteem was in the toilet. My prayers became, "dear Lord, please just let one of us DIE!"

What was my crime? I was faithful, I maintained my marriage covenant. My reward was a husband that not only beat me and screamed at me whenever life didn't go the way he wanted, but also one that cheated on me with prostitutes.

Finally he took me to divorce court. He didn't want to live with someone who had learned Tae Bo and who wouldn't forgive and forget like she had a billion times before.

I maintain that I am blameless in teh shattering of my marriage. And I cannot believe a God of love would want me to remain loveless and celibate my whole life because of a past marriage to someone so seeped in sin that no one else mattered.

Malachi 2
16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [1] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

To me, this passage equates violence with being unfaithful. No one should have to live in a dangerous situation or remain loveless. God wants us to be happy, and in situations of abuse, I cannot see how God would consider a second chance at being loved as a sin. But sure, I can perfectly understand how God could command my ex husband to never remarry.

I can relate to your story, except my ex was never a christian. At one point he took my bibles and study books and burnt them. He was physically and mentally abusive to me. No one would have guessed cause I concealed it for years and he was one of those "good ole boys" and everyone liked him. He especially liked adultry! He made very little effort to hide his affairs from me. I finally divorced him. Years went by and I was lonely. I prayed and asked God if I could have a helpmate as I was so lonely. I now have a christian husband for 10 years and I thank God for our marriage. My husband loves me and hates adultry. I feel blessed.

 

[E-beth]

Same here.

God said "It is not good for a man to be alone."

I was willing to live a live without a husband. I was lonely, but after what I had been through, I wanted no part in it. But when I met my husband now, I felt God telling me to love again. Then when God blessed me with a baby, I knew that His blessing was on us.

 

[Follower of Christ too]

Same here.

God said "It is not good for a man to be alone."

I was willing to live a live without a husband. I was lonely, but after what I had been through, I wanted no part in it. But when I met my husband now, I felt God telling me to love again. Then when God blessed me with a baby, I knew that His blessing was on us.

Your story has given me another blesssing. God Bless

 

[katelyn]

First of all, this thread is going beyond the limits of reasonable debate. If you can't take someone disagrreing with you, then either don't read, put them on ignore, or go offline to be mad and rant.

Many years ago, I was a virgin bride of a Christian man. My college sweetheart. I was faithful to him throughout our marriage. He was not. For whatever reason, be it anger, mental illness, etc, he began to get abusive. First it was verbal, then emotional, then physical. About seven years ago, he became so angry that I accidently dropped a broom on his foot that he picked the broomstick up and popped me so many times in the head and stomache that I miscarried a baby I didn't even know I had. Still, I stayed with him, because "God hates divorce". So I suffered in silence, lying to my friends and family about how bruises came to be. My self-esteem was in the toilet. My prayers became, "dear Lord, please just let one of us DIE!"

What was my crime? I was faithful, I maintained my marriage covenant. My reward was a husband that not only beat me and screamed at me whenever life didn't go the way he wanted, but also one that cheated on me with prostitutes.

Finally he took me to divorce court. He didn't want to live with someone who had learned Tae Bo and who wouldn't forgive and forget like she had a billion times before.

I maintain that I am blameless in teh shattering of my marriage. And I cannot believe a God of love would want me to remain loveless and celibate my whole life because of a past marriage to someone so seeped in sin that no one else mattered.

Malachi 2
16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself [1] with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

To me, this passage equates violence with being unfaithful. No one should have to live in a dangerous situation or remain loveless. God wants us to be happy, and in situations of abuse, I cannot see how God would consider a second chance at being loved as a sin. But sure, I can perfectly understand how God could command my ex husband to never remarry.

Thanks for sharing this, E-beth. I can see where people are getting their negative view of remarriage, but the idea that someone who suffered abuse should have the privilege of being married revoked because of what someone else did doesn't seem to line up with what I know about God. I had looked at that verse in Malachi also, and was wondering if anyone else understood it that way in regard to violence.