Divorce and remarriage

[mikesayen]

I notice you said a repentive spouse, but what about one who still is a believer but is hard of heart and unrepentant? My dad was a believer and understood the bible to say it was good and proper to beat his wife into "submission." In the name of "discipline" he would spank me with a belt until I was almost unconscious. One time he picked me up by the neck and thew me down the basement stairs. My mom left and divorced him when I was 6 to save both of our lives.

He had been a pastor.

Bible is clear, those who practice sins will not enter the kingsom of God Gal. 5:25-. The bible also says if we do not forgive the sins of any, God will not forgive our sins Matt. 6:15. So, those who are believers but chose to live in sin or unforgiveness will not enter eternal life. Heb. 6 also speaks about those who were once enlightening but reject it later on that they will be worse off. Many good pastors have been enlighten at one time but have turned out worse than an unbeliever. Sorry about your father. Your mom did not need to divorce him, she had other options like separation, calling the police, calling family members and the church to speak to him etc... Your father will be rewarded for his actions, either eternal life or eternal damnation.

 

[mikesayen]

I notice you said a repentive spouse, but what about one who still is a believer but is hard of heart and unrepentant? My dad was a believer and understood the bible to say it was good and proper to beat his wife into "submission." In the name of "discipline" he would spank me with a belt until I was almost unconscious. One time he picked me up by the neck and thew me down the basement stairs. My mom left and divorced him when I was 6 to save both of our lives.

He had been a pastor.

After hearing Jesus say that the only valid reason to divorce (for men only) your wife was for Porneia (sexual immorality/fornication) they were not ignorant of abuse. That is probably why the Desciples said "it is better not to marry!" Matt 19:10-11.

 

[Dave-W]

Sorry about your father. Your mom did not need to divorce him, she had other options like separation, calling the police, calling family members and the church to speak to him etc...

Options were very limited in the early 1960s. The police were called, and with her having broken bones and her clothes mostly torn off her, they almost hauled HER off to jail. And dad knew the bible well enough that he could convince almost anyone including seminarians that he was right.

Most of the family members were afraid of him. He carried brass knuckles.

Separation without divorce is a modern construct not recognized in the bible.

Your father will be rewarded for his actions, either eternal life or eternal damnation.

He definitely believed so I am fairly sure he went to eternal life.

 

[98cwitr]

Then who was the author of Hebrews writing to? Unbelievers?

Hebrews 3:15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”

4:7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

Right...it says "do not" and correct, Paul is speaking to the Hebrews who had not heard the Gospel and therefore had not heard the Word of God. Those who would hear and believe didn't have hard hearts, now did they?

 

[Dave-W]

Paul is speaking to the Hebrews who had not heard the Gospel

That is NOT the thrust of the book. It was written to Jewish believers as a warning for them not to leave the faith or grow hardened in their walk.

 

[mikesayen]

Options were very limited in the early 1960s. The police were called, and with her having broken bones and her clothes mostly torn off her, they almost hauled HER off to jail. And dad knew the bible well enough that he could convince almost anyone including seminarians that he was right.

Most of the family members were afraid of him. He carried brass knuckles.

Separation without divorce is a modern construct not recognized in the bible.

He definitely believed so I am fairly sure he went to eternal life.

Sorry, I am confused. Are you saying he was a good guy or a bad guy, your father? Even the demons believe, and many will say "I know you" but will not enter in. God will say "Depart, I never knew you." Only the rightous will enter into heaven, not the wicked. Of do you say this for your own peace of mind?

 

[98cwitr]

That is NOT the thrust of the book. It was written to Jewish believers.

So be it as it may (though they may have heard and NOT believed), they were not mature (Hebrews 5), and many still held onto OT Laws, traditions, and customs (Hebrews 10), which Paul is trying to get them to let go of. Paul goes so far as to even define faith in chapter 11, so I'm not so convinced that it was. I think Paul is trying to coax them, via the Spirit, to belief through this message that is the Book of Hebrews.

Look at Ephesians 4:18-19 and tell me if "they" is referring to a Christian or non-Christian. Do you think the "indulgence" in verse 19 could include adultery? Could it also include divorce and remarriage?

--

Can a man be a wife beater and a real Christian?

32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

 

[Dave-W]

The book was written to believers. Period. So was the rest of scripture. And since the date of the book was after Paul was killed, I doubt he wrote it. He was the apostle to the gentiles, not the Jews. (read Galatians)

Can a man be a wife beater and a real Christian?

The real question is can a man sin and still be a real Christian. Every christian has had at times sin in their lives. Few there be that are so sanctified that they are beyond it. (Wesley's doctrine of sanctification)

It would seem the true believers in Corinth were committing adultery and all kinds of stuff. Paul never told them they were not saved. He told them to stop sinning. Clearly the answer is yes.

Unless you think that wife beating is in a special category.

 

[Dave-W]

Sorry, I am confused. Are you saying he was a good guy or a bad guy, your father? Even the demons believe, and many will say "I know you" but will not enter in. God will say "Depart, I never knew you." Only the righteous will enter into heaven, not the wicked. Of do you say this for your own peace of mind?

He was a complicated man. He knew the bible better than almost any man I ever met. And yet he had some very strange ideas that he believed were supported in scripture.

But it sounds like you are supporting a works-based salvation here; i.e. if he was not good enough he would not be saved.

 

[98cwitr]

The book was written to believers. Period. So was the rest of scripture. And since the date of the book was after Paul was killed, I doubt he wrote it. He was the apostle to the gentiles, not the Jews. (read Galatians)


The real question is can a man sin and still be a real Christian. Every christian has had at times sin in their lives. Few there be that are so sanctified that they are beyond it. (Wesley's doctrine of sanctification)

It would seem the true believers in Corinth were committing adultery and all kinds of stuff. Paul never told them they were not saved. He told them to stop sinning. Clearly the answer is yes.

Unless you think that wife beating is in a special category.

Can you biblically love (agape) a person and divorce them at the same time? What does that say about the martial vows we make?

 

[Dave-W]

Can you biblically love (agape) a person and divorce them at the same time? What does that say about the martial vows we make?

Yes. It says that covenants can be and sometimes are broken. Hard hearts do that.

 

[98cwitr]

Yes. It says that covenants can be and sometimes are broken. Hard hearts do that.

So if we break covenant with God, how does He handled that?

 

[Grafted In]

True, but that is increasingly off topic; and a major point of contention with our Baptist and Presbyterian brothers who hold to once saved always saved.

I believe in once saved always saved, but I truely appreciate those who can provide convincing evidence that my beliefs are in err.
So many who do not believe as I do tend to go way overboard to convince me that I am wrong.
So, like you said, it is becoming more and more off topic and does create contention, I thank my Lord Jesus for those who try in an increasingly difficult way to convince me I'm wrong.
I want to know God's heart on this issue.

 

[mikesayen]

He was a complicated man. He knew the bible better than almost any man I ever met. And yet he had some very strange ideas that he believed were supported in scripture.

But it sounds like you are supporting a works-based salvation here; i.e. if he was not good enough he would not be saved.

I am not saying if he was not good "enough" he will not be saved. I am saying if he was "evil" he will not be saved. His actions will show if he has a good eye, or a bad eye. Not to go off topic, and I do apologize for that, but I am concerned that your father beat you and your wife (I am guessing or severely abused her) that you still think he is going to heaven on what he "knows" and not what he "shows". Salvation is not by works, but works will show the type of tree someone is. Did he have "good" fruit or "bad" fruit. Of course, if he repented, as believers do in Scripture than that would definitely be a sign of "good fruit". Love ya brother.

 

[mikesayen]

I am not saying if he was not good "enough" he will not be saved. I am saying if he was "evil" he will not be saved. His actions will show if he has a good eye, or a bad eye. Not to go off topic, and I do apologize for that, but I am concerned that your father beat you and your wife (I am guessing or severely abused her) that you still think he is going to heaven on what he "knows" and not what he "shows". Salvation is not by works, but works will show the type of tree someone is. Did he have "good" fruit or "bad" fruit. Of course, if he repented, as believers do in Scripture than that would definitely be a sign of "good fruit". Love ya brother.

And to tell you the truth, your father should not have been praised by the Church for his knowledge but should have been chased by the Church with church discipline 1 Cor. 5. Give such a chance to repent with 2 or 3 witnesses, church elder board, then if he would have continued, handing such a one over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his soul would have been saved. The problem with American churches is that we do not confront a brother in sin privately, then with two witnesses, then before the church, as biblcially mandated. And the Church usually does not expel someone unless he is teaching something contrary to the Pastor and not according to his sinful life (i.e. shacking up with a person, adultery, sexual immorality etc...). And finally, if a person is divorcing their spouse not according to scripture, or remarriage in adultery, the church offers no church discipline, only books and counseling. Bringing it back on topic.

 

[Dave-W]

So if we break covenant with God, how does He handled that?

Indeed. That has been an ongoing argument for over 500 years. Us Arminianists believe that at some point, He will remove us from salvation:

Rom 11.20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Calvinists of course do not agree with that.

 

[Dave-W]

I am concerned that your father beat you and your wife (I am guessing or severely abused her) that you still think he is going to heaven on what he "knows" and not what he "shows".

Not my wife - HIS wife (my mother)

I was only a child at the time and was more than a decade and 150 miles away from meeting my (future) wife. I do not know for sure if he repented to God for that or not. I do know his next family did not experience that violence my mom and I did. That looks like repentance to me.

It is unbelief that keeps us out of salvation; not in how much sin we do or do not commit. And sins are covered when we repent.

 

[Dave-W]

Sometimes, divorce saves lives. Which is more important; the spouse remaining in the marriage, or remaining alive?

I have known some who believe and have counseled others that it is absolutely a salvic issue to stay in an abusive situation even if it costs the life of the abused. And women who got thrown out but move back in anyway saying that it is better to be beaten and killed than to burn forever in hell.

Not a very good choice of options IMO.

 

[Dave-W]

So, those who are believers but chose to live in sin or unforgiveness will not enter eternal life.

That is salvation by works. It is unbelief (which breaks the covenant) that removes us from salvation, not sins.

 

[98cwitr]

Indeed. That has been an ongoing argument for over 500 years. Us Arminianists believe that at some point, He will remove us from salvation:

Rom 11.20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Calvinists of course do not agree with that.

Bingo...and why were they broken off? Because of their unbelief (that is, lack of faithfulness). In context of this conversation, adultery is called unfaithfulness for a reason, and the covenant, like the one we have with God, is to remain faithful. Right?