Divine revelation of hell?

[KleinerApfel]

Ugh!

I have heard one or two authors or speakers mention people who claim to have been taken by the Lord into hell, allowwed to suffer the most horrendous experiences there, and told to come back and warn everyone.

A lot of it sounds extremely extra-biblical, even anti-biblical, but they justify it by saying that the unbelievers need to hear this.

As if the Bible doesn't say enough already to make an informed decision?
Why would God add new, detailed, personal experiences so that people who regfuse to read His word can be given someone else's version instead, and so that will save them?

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man we are told nobody can cross the chasm, and even if they rose from the dead and went back, they would not be believed.

How can these people be saying they have done exactly that? And why oh why do so many apparently mature Christians not only believe them, but urge others, including unbelievers and even children to read this stuff?

It is a tragedy, because it undermines the Bible and causes fear, and fear takes one heck of a lot of getting rid of for some, especially those who have a distorted picture of God before they come to know Him.
Hmm, fear and bondage, I wonder who is behind all that then?

(Sorry, was I ranting a little!:o )

God bless, love Sue

 

[enoch son]

Hell as they saw it isn't in the book! Sound like the angel of light was having some fun.

 

[9-iron]

I read a book about one such person who claimed to be carried to hell nightly by the Lord over several weeks. Supposedly, it was too much for them to handle all at once, so for a few hours each night after she fell asleep she would actually visit hell.

I got about half-way through and really tried to finish the book. However, everytime I picked it up, I felt I was watching one of those Sci-Fi/Horror movies from the 70's!!!

 

[He put me back together]

When it comes to seeing "hell" so one can warn people, I think the story of Lazarus and the rich man could fairly well suffice, unless someone refuted the absoluteness of it.

But when it comes to whether Yahweh will give us a vision concerning the grave or Gehenna, for one reason or another, what about John? He saw a vision, at least of Gehenna. He might not have seen the nature of the grave, but he did see the lake of fire, at least in symbolism.

But in truth, most visions of "hell" that I hear of, especially when said to be literal, suffer terribly from a variety of syndromes:

1. In addition to just being silly, they have more of a tendency to follow pop-culture hell cliches of demons flying around torturing people...instead of being tormented themselves, as the Bible says they will be.

2. These pop-cliches don't come from Hebrew culture or the Scriptures, but inserts from pagan traditions.

3. They always and continually speak of flames this, burning that, lava this, lava that. They forget that flames are not the only metaphors used in the Bible to describe Sheoul or Gehenna. They also forget why flames made a good metaphor to the Hebrew people.

4. Given the Biblical precedent of flames, the flames still rarely burn anyone in these "visions." They're just decoration. The torment comes from some wacky disillusioned perversion of man-made torture devices, naturally operated by demons that look like goblin rejects from the LOTR films.

5. None of these visions hold a candle to what human beings have done to one another while still alive in this world.

 

[enoch son]

When it comes to seeing "hell" so one can warn people, I think the story of Lazarus and the rich man could fairly well suffice, unless someone refuted the absoluteness of it.

But when it comes to whether Yahweh will give us a vision concerning the grave or Gehenna, for one reason or another, what about John? He saw a vision, at least of Gehenna. He might not have seen the nature of the grave, but he did see the lake of fire, at least in symbolism.

But in truth, most visions of "hell" that I hear of, especially when said to be literal, suffer terribly from a variety of syndromes:

1. In addition to just being silly, they have more of a tendency to follow pop-culture hell cliches of demons flying around torturing people...instead of being tormented themselves, as the Bible says they will be.

2. These pop-cliches don't come from Hebrew culture or the Scriptures, but inserts from pagan traditions.

3. They always and continually speak of flames this, burning that, lava this, lava that. They forget that flames are not the only metaphors used in the Bible to describe Sheoul or Gehenna. They also forget why flames made a good metaphor to the Hebrew people.

4. Given the Biblical precedent of flames, the flames still rarely burn anyone in these "visions." They're just decoration. The torment comes from some wacky disillusioned perversion of man-made torture devices, naturally operated by demons that look like goblin rejects from the LOTR films.

5. None of these visions hold a candle to what human beings have done to one another while still alive in this world.

If one get into the depth of the thing one will see that the flames always mean purification not punishment.

 

[Hadron]

If one get into the depth of the thing one will see that the flames always mean purification not punishment.

Why oh, why do people insist on preaching Universalism? What sense does it make to even preach the Gospel if all that people had to fear was a big ol' slap on the wrist at the end?

 

[enoch son]

Why oh, why do people insist on preaching Universalism? What sense does it make to even preach the Gospel if all that people had to fear was a big ol' slap on the wrist at the end?

Why oh why do people talk about something they don't understand or haven't study. We will all pass trough the firer of God. I for one will run into it, others will have to be throw. It's better to go trough it now then later. I have never preached that's it a "slap on the wrist". If you are going to jump on my belief of total reconclition get it right! Rom.5;10,2 Cor. 5;19 It's the world that was reconcile not just man. The pride of man makes me sick.

 

[Hadron]

Why oh why do people talk about something they don't understand or haven't study. We will all pass trough the firer of God. I for one will run into it, others will have to be throw. It's better to go trough it now then later. I have never preached that's it a "slap on the wrist". If you are going to jump on my belief of total reconclition get it right! Rom.5;10,2 Cor. 5;19 It's the world that was reconcile not just man. The pride of man makes me sick.

You can be sick all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the firer is here on earth right now and the believers are passing through it. Those who do not believe will be cast into the biggest fire of all time, not to come out purified, but to meet the end that they have chosen for themselves.

 

[psalms 91]

God is a God of love but He is also a God of judgement and to deny it is wrong biblically. Hell is spoken of enough in the bible to be real and to be very important. The bible does not repeat itself unless it is very important. Have you ever nopticed when Jesus said verily verily twice it was a very important point? This is also why I have such a pronblem with the OSAS and find it unbiblicial

 

[enoch son]

You can be sick all you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the firer is here on earth right now and the believers are passing through it. Those who do not believe will be cast into the biggest fire of all time, not to come out purified, but to meet the end that they have chosen for themselves.

Frist part I agree with. The scond part Chap. and ver. please.

 

[enoch son]

God is a God of love but He is also a God of judgement and to deny it is wrong biblically. Hell is spoken of enough in the bible to be real and to be very important. The bible does not repeat itself unless it is very important. Have you ever nopticed when Jesus said verily verily twice it was a very important point? This is also why I have such a pronblem with the OSAS and find it unbiblicial

So then you have a doctrine of works base on the law?

 

[Hadron]

Frist part I agree with. The scond part Chap. and ver. please.

Ok.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NIV)
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
​

The choice is yours: life or death.

Matthew 3:7-10 (NIV)
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
​

Eternal death and fire are waiting for those who do not choose wisely.

If you are not an heir to the kingdom of heaven, then where do you go?

Matthew 13:24-30 (NIV)
Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
​

But wait, there's more!

Matthew 13:36-43 (NIV)
Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
​

Sorry, but this is pretty clear. Jesus even explained this parable so that all may understand. There is no room for extra-biblical interpretation here, which is what I'm assuming will follow.

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

There is an idea that says when hell is cast into the lake of fire that it too will be completely destroyed.
Whadda think?

 

[enoch son]

Ok.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NIV)

This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

​

The choice is yours: life or death.

Matthew 3:7-10 (NIV)

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

​

Eternal death and fire are waiting for those who do not choose wisely.


If you are not an heir to the kingdom of heaven, then where do you go?

Matthew 13:24-30 (NIV)

Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'

" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'

" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

​

But wait, there's more!

Matthew 13:36-43 (NIV)

Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

​

Sorry, but this is pretty clear. Jesus even explained this parable so that all may understand. There is no room for extra-biblical interpretation here, which is what I'm assuming will follow.

No not at all. The weeds are demons not people. The devil can't sow people. Let alone the fact that hell is mistranslated it should be Gehenna or the valley of hinnom which is a place of purification. All flesh is going there. "FLESH AND BLOOD CAN'T INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" so it looks like your's and my flesh is going there too. Basing a doctrine on a parble is not even bible 101.

 

[BenAdam]

No not at all. The weeds are demons not people. The devil can't sow people. Let alone the fact that hell is mistranslated it should be Gehenna or the valley of hinnom which is a place of purification. All flesh is going there. "FLESH AND BLOOD CAN'T INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" so it looks like your's and my flesh is going there too. Basing a doctrine on a parble is not even bible 101.

I agree that it should be Gehenna, but from all the reading I have been able to do, the Vale of Hinnom was a garabage dump, a place to destroy refuse, not a place of purification. Thoughts?

 

[Father Rick]

Why oh why do people talk about something they don't understand or haven't study. We will all pass trough the firer of God. I for one will run into it, others will have to be throw. It's better to go trough it now then later. I have never preached that's it a "slap on the wrist". If you are going to jump on my belief of total reconclition get it right! Rom.5;10,2 Cor. 5;19 It's the world that was reconcile not just man. The pride of man makes me sick.

Just to clarify...

You are saying that you believe none will go to hell (as in a place of eternal punishment), but rather that all men will be purified to spend eternity with God? Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Pherious]

No not at all. The weeds are demons not people. The devil can't sow people. Let alone the fact that hell is mistranslated it should be Gehenna or the valley of hinnom which is a place of purification. All flesh is going there. "FLESH AND BLOOD CAN'T INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD" so it looks like your's and my flesh is going there too. Basing a doctrine on a parble is not even bible 101.

I'll pray for you brother. The hell you are saying doesn't exist, is waiting for those who don't know Christ. . THERE IS A HELL, AND THE BIBLE TEACHES IT! THERE IS NO MISTRANSLATION!

 

[KleinerApfel]

Hmm, I went away for a couple of hours and my thread went walkabout!

Ah well, it's an interesting thought, universalism. Carry on!

 

[9-iron]

Ah well, it's an interesting thought, universalism. Carry on!

yes, please carry on this is very enlightening thread, perhaps not very educational, but enlightening regardless.

 

[rapturefish]

Ugh!

I have heard one or two authors or speakers mention people who claim to have been taken by the Lord into hell, allowwed to suffer the most horrendous experiences there, and told to come back and warn everyone.

A lot of it sounds extremely extra-biblical, even anti-biblical, but they justify it by saying that the unbelievers need to hear this.

As if the Bible doesn't say enough already to make an informed decision?
Why would God add new, detailed, personal experiences so that people who regfuse to read His word can be given someone else's version instead, and so that will save them?

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man we are told nobody can cross the chasm, and even if they rose from the dead and went back, they would not be believed.

How can these people be saying they have done exactly that? And why oh why do so many apparently mature Christians not only believe them, but urge others, including unbelievers and even children to read this stuff?

It is a tragedy, because it undermines the Bible and causes fear, and fear takes one heck of a lot of getting rid of for some, especially those who have a distorted picture of God before they come to know Him.
Hmm, fear and bondage, I wonder who is behind all that then?

(Sorry, was I ranting a little!:o )

God bless, love Sue

I'm concerned about the tone of this... I assume we're talking about A Divine Revelation of Hell by Mary K. Baxter. First of all, the claim made by her is not the she actually went to hell and back but that she was given a revelation of hell, and then heaven over a period of time with the purpose of writing it down so that people might be saved.

Baxter has carefully backed up the things she saw with scripture. She has that respect for the word in that she is aware of the dangers of revealing anything that is outside the paradigm of scripture. The kind of experience that she describes sounds very much like something that John experienced on the isle of Patmos when he was given his revelation. I'm assuming by the place where this thread is located that most people here would believe in the supernatural gifts and that God does speak to people in visions and dreams today.

In addition, there is not a problem in describing a glimpse of hell so long as it causes people to be saved. I know some are irked by the fire and brimstone image of gospel of centuries past and prefer to focus on the grace message. But there are people that need to hear about the dangers of hell as a warning that this is what they're heading for unless they repent. I've read of near-death experiences of people who have lived errant and awful lives - they found themselves in a hell experience and saw a glimpse of the life they could end up with if they continued on the same path. Consequently some of them have emerged from the experience with a new commitment to the Lord.

The message about the dangers of hell is the right one for some people, and for others it may be better to read about heaven. Baxter also has written A Divine Revelation of Heaven to describe the things God revealed to her and perhaps those who have given up hope may find this inspiring.

To reveal a glimpse of hell by revelation is not new - it's in the bible. And I know the bible is not of satan, and yet there is dramatic detail about what happens to those who are not of the saints. I see a big difference between a person condemning people to hell by their words and a person in love warning people of the dangers of hell to the lost.

I would suggest reading the books and examining not just the scriptures that lace it throughout, but also the tone of the books. I see a gracious spirit behind it all and am convinced that this is of God. It adds nothing new to the bible by way of doctrine but offers a fresh glimpse of insight into something that is already in scripture.