Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[angelsaroundme]

Divine correction is needed to better us, but I do not believe punishment for the sake of punishment itself is necessary.

 

[public hermit]

That's evading my question on a technicality. To fulfill He had to die.

Maybe we're talking past each other. Creation is through the 2nd person and reconciliation is through the 2nd person. If you are saying, given this kind of world that God has set up, then the incarnation (and all it entails), is essentially a part of that, you're still only saying "God has decided this is the way it should be." If you're saying God can only forgive if Christ dies, simpliciter, you're putting a necessity on God that simply is not there. Ultimately, all of this goes back to God's free choice. God could have created a radically different world so that redemption, if needed, might have looked radically different. Maybe that seems like a distinction without a difference, but it's not. God is free. God has chosen redemption through the incarnation, not due to necessity, but the divine will. If you want to say the divine will is necessitated by the divine will, you're simply saying God is free to be God, which is what I am saying lol.

 

[RickReads]

Maybe we're talking past each other. Creation is through the 2nd person and reconciliation is through the 2nd person. If you are saying, given this kind of world that God has set up, then the incarnation (and all it entails), is essentially a part of that, you're still only saying "God has decided this is the way it should be." If you're saying God can only forgive if Christ dies, simpliciter, you're putting a necessity on God that simply is not there. Ultimately, all of this goes back to God's free choice. God could have created a radically different world so that redemption, if needed, might have looked radically different. Maybe that seems like a distinction without a difference, but it's not. God is free. God has chosen redemption through the incarnation, not due to necessity, but the divine will. If you want to say the divine will is necessitated by the divine will, you're simply saying God is free to be God, which is what I am saying lol.

That's making it a lot more complicated than my intent. If Jesus had not been willing
then God would have destroyed everyone.

 

[public hermit]

That's making it a lot more complicated than my intent. If Jesus had not been willing
then God would have destroyed everyone.

Well, I could argue that point, too, but we're getting off topic. My point in the post you responded to is that the only kind of "punishment" that makes sense in relation to God is reformative punishment, i.e. punishment that restores, which might be painful for us but is good and needed.

 

[GenemZ]

You have just maintained that
Christ on the cross paid for the sin of unbelievers,
which are then paid for a second time in Gehenna,
by those same unbelievers.

You have just made God unjust in requiring double payment for the same sin,
or else maintained that Christ's payment was insufficient and required additional payment to complete it,
either way, thereby grievously polluting the gospel..

Unbelievers do not go to the Lake of Fire for their sins. Their sins will not even be mentioned at their judgment. Only their works will be searched.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the one of life. And the dead were judged out of the things having been written in the books, according to their works." Rev 2012​

They will be judged according to their works, not sins. Why?

One work will be searched for and not found. This one...

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:27-29​

Salvation by having all sins paid for would be a cheap salvation. For it concentrates on the person, not the Lord.

The real issue in salvation is what think ye of Christ? The rejection, or acceptance of the Lord is the real theme in salvation.

To make one's sins the issue? When we did not choose to be born sinners? It was Adam's doing. What kind of salvation would that be?

All our sins (and the penalty for being a sinner) Jesus bore on the Cross when He was forsaken by God.

By default, having ones personal sins imputed to someone would mean God would not even allow that man to exist. To avoid that? Jesus paid for all man's sins, so the real issue in salvation can be just like the angels faced..

What do you think of the Lord God.. the Son of God?

That's why the unbeliever's sins will not be mentioned. Only his works. One will work will go missing. That is why the unbeliever goes to the Lake of Fire.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” Jn 6:27-28​

Our salvation cost the Lord with his blood .... That was not a cheap salvation. Just having no sins imputed would not show any favor to God. Its what we think of the Son of God that is the vital importance.

Jesus died on the Cross so man could be spared from extinction, so man could be given a chance to choose about God.

We who have entered regeneration now can secure freedom from the "effects" of sin by means of the blood of Christ. (1 Jn 1:9) The blood of Christ saves us from our predicament of still being able to sin in our present body, until we become made whole in our glorious resurrection body. A glorious body just like the Lord's glorious body. Something infinitely far superior to what Adam had before he fell. For we will not be able to fall.

 

[Clare73]

Unbelievers do not go to the Lake of Fire for their sins. Their sins will not even be mentioned at their judgment. Only their works will be searched.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the one of life. And the dead were judged out of the things having been written in the books, according to their works." Rev 2012​

They will be judged according to their works, not sins. Why?
One work will be searched for and not found. This one...

Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
​

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jn 6:27-29 - Salvation by having all sins paid for would be a cheap salvation.

Whoa, there, podna'!!!

That's easy for you to say, it was not your blood that was spilt!

For it concentrates on the person, not the Lord.

Baloney. . .

The real issue in salvation is what think ye of Christ? The rejection, or acceptance of the Lord is the real theme in salvation.

Jesus' work of salvation itself does not depend on what anyone thinks of Christ.
It is 100% the effective work of God!
Its application to anyone's sin, however, is by faith in and trust on him and his atoning work.

To make one's sins the issue?

You're confused. . .we didn't make sin the "issue"--sinners are just fine with it. . .it is God who makes sin such a HUGE issue that his own Son must die to resolve the "issue."

When we did not choose to be born sinners? It was Adam's doing.
What kind of salvation would that be?

The only kind that matters! The kind that saves your hide from unquenchable fire!
And that would be the "kind of salvation" preached by the gospel and everywhere presented in the NT!

All our sins (and the penalty for being a sinner) Jesus bore on the Cross when He was forsaken by God.

By default, having ones personal sins imputed to someone would mean God would not even allow that man to exist.

If you're referring to Adam, his guilt is imputed to mankind, not his sin. (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18)

To avoid that? Jesus paid for all man's sins, so the real issue in salvation can be just like the angels faced..

So you agree God is unjust, in requiring the same sin be paid for twice, once by Jesus and again by the unbeliever in Gehenna?

What do you think of the Lord God.. the Son of God?
That's why the unbeliever's sins will not be mentioned. Only his works.

Because his works manifest his unbelief.

One will work will go missing. That is why the unbeliever goes to the Lake of Fire.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” ​

Jn 6:27-28 - Our salvation cost the Lord with his blood ....
That was not a cheap salvation.

Make up your mind. . .you just said above that it was.​

Just having no sins imputed would not show any favor to God.

Salvation is not about having no sin imputed.
Salvation is about having one's sin debt paid by Jesus Christ to save one from the penalty of non-payment; i.e., unquenchable fire.

Its what we think of the Son of God that is the vital importance.

It's about more than just what we think, it's about who and what we believe on and trust for remission of our sin and granting of eternal life!

Jesus died on the Cross so man could be spared from extinction,

There is no extinction of man nor his immortal spirit in the NT.
Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive because, in the burning-bush account, God said to Moses long after they were dead, that he is (not "was") the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Mark 12:26-27), to him all are alive (Luke 20:38).
The spirits of the OT saints are in the church (Hebrews 12:22-23).

Contrary to the notion of "extinction," Jesus teaches eternal life and eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).

so man could be given a chance to choose about God.
We who have entered regeneration now can secure
freedom from the "effects" of sin by means of the blood of Christ. (1 Jn 1:9)

What about the MAJOR "effect" of unforgiven sin--the unquenchable fire?

What a dissing of the work Jesus accomplished by his sacrificial death. . .
It is you who makes it a cheap salvation!

The blood of Christ saves us from our predicament of still being able to sin in our present body, until we become made whole in our glorious resurrection body. A glorious body just like the Lord's glorious body. Something infinitely far superior to what Adam had before he fell. For we will not be able to fall.

You have provided no remedy for the condemnation into which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18) because of the guilt of Adam's transgression imputed to them (Romans 5:12-14).

Condemnation is a sentence to eternal punishment, to which you do not apply Jesus' saving work.
You simply assume a remedy for that condemnation, and apply Christ's atonement only to the life of the regenerate, not to their salvation from the condemnation of Romans 5:18.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, I could argue that point, too, but we're getting off topic. My point in the post you responded to is that the only kind of "punishment" that makes sense in relation to God is reformative punishment, i.e. punishment that restores, which might be painful for us but is good and needed.

Why would that not also include mere justice? See, here's the thing (and maybe this is poorly stated, but: God is the default fact. He is altogether purity and justice. He cannot abide injustice, though he can put it into a time envelope and let it ripen. But in the end, it all must be put right. And there is only one way for that to happen —'balancing the scales' so to speak. Call it what you want, it must happen. And he is going to see to it that it does.

So infinite God is who was offended by any injustice, and infinite God will see to it that the scales are balanced. The burning power of his purity cannot be held back in the end. It will see to it that 'payment' is exacted, thoroughly and precisely.

The nice notions that this is correction or 'a teachable moment' or whatever else, is all details that ignore the real problem and the real fact of God's 'retribution'.

 

[GenemZ]

​

Whoa, there, podna'!!!

That's easy for you to say, it was not your blood that was spilt!

But, yours was?

Its not easy to say. It requires being filled with the Spirit.

 

[Mark Quayle]

​

Whoa, there, podna'!!!

That's easy for you to say, it was not your blood that was spilt!

Baloney. . .

Jesus' work of salvation itself does not depend on what anyone thinks of Christ.
It is 100% the effective work of God!
Its application to anyone's sin, however, is by faith in and trust on him and his atoning work.

You're confused. . .we didn't make sin the "issue"--sinners are just fine with it. . .it is God who makes sin such a HUGE issue that his own Son must die to resolve the "issue."

The only kind that matters! The kind that saves your hide from unquenchable fire!
And that would be the "kind of salvation" preached by the gospel and everywhere presented in the NT!

If you're referring to Adam, his guilt is imputed to mankind, not his sin. (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18)

So you agree God is unjust, in requiring the same sin be paid for twice, once by Jesus and again by the sinner?

Because his works manifest his unbelief.

Make up your mind. . .you just said above that it was.​

Salvation is not about having no sin imputed.
Salvation is about having one's sin debt paid by Jesus Christ to save one from the penalty of non-payment; i.e., unquenchable fire.

It's about more than just what we think, it's about who and what we believe on and trust for remission of our sin and granting of eternal life!

There is no extinction of man nor his immortal spirit in the NT.
Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive, because God said to Moses long after they were dead, that he is (not "was") the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Mark 12:26-27)
Contrary to extinction, there is eternal life and eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).

What about the MAJOR effect of unforgiven sin--the unquenchable fire?

What a dissing of the work Jesus accomplished by his sacrificial death. . .
It is you who makes it a cheap salvation!

You have provided no remedy for the condemnation into which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18) because of the guilt of Adam's transgression imputed to them (Romans 5:12-14).

Condemnation is a sentence to eternal punishment, to which you do not apply Jesus' saving work.
You simply assume a remedy for that condemnation, and apply Christ's atonement only to the life of the regenerate, not to their salvation from condemnation.

Preach it! @Clare73 Amen, sister!

 

[Clare73]

Why would that not also include mere justice? See, here's the thing (and maybe this is poorly stated, but: God is the default fact. He is altogether purity and justice. He cannot abide injustice, though he can put it into a time envelope and let it ripen. But in the end, it all must be put right. And there is only one way for that to happen —'balancing the scales' so to speak. Call it what you want, it must happen. And he is going to see to it that it does.

So infinite God is who was offended by any injustice, and infinite God will see to it that the scales are balanced. The burning power of his purity cannot be held back in the end. It will see to it that 'payment' is exacted, thoroughly and precisely.

The nice notions that this is correction or 'a teachable moment' or whatever else, is all details that ignore the real problem and the real fact of God's 'retribution'.

Love the
burning power of his purity and
ripening time envelope (filling the measure of their iniquity)!

 

[GenemZ]

Well, I could argue that point, too, but we're getting off topic. My point in the post you responded to is that the only kind of "punishment" that makes sense in relation to God is reformative punishment, i.e. punishment that restores, which might be painful for us but is good and needed.

If these souls were "reformable" it would make God delinquent in allowing them to continue.

 

[GenemZ]

Preach it! @Clare73 Amen, sister!

Pump up the emotions? ... That's no substitute for the Holy Spirit leading. The grace-enabling that grants understanding.

It all comes down to the Word. Not how you feel about it. God's justice upsets those who fear righteous judgment.

 

[GenemZ]

Why would that not also include mere justice? See, here's the thing (and maybe this is poorly stated, but: God is the default fact. He is altogether purity and justice. He cannot abide injustice, though he can put it into a time envelope and let it ripen. But in the end, it all must be put right. And there is only one way for that to happen —'balancing the scales' so to speak. Call it what you want, it must happen. And he is going to see to it that it does.

So infinite God is who was offended by any injustice, and infinite God will see to it that the scales are balanced. The burning power of his purity cannot be held back in the end. It will see to it that 'payment' is exacted, thoroughly and precisely.

The nice notions that this is correction or 'a teachable moment' or whatever else, is all details that ignore the real problem and the real fact of God's 'retribution'.

Until then. We are called to believe what God's Word actually tells us.

 

[public hermit]

Why would that not also include mere justice?

What is mere justice? God brings all of this into being. God is absolutely sovereign. Mere justice is God succeeded in what God sets out to do. If God sets out to create creatures in God's own image and desires to bring them into union, God will do that. That's mere justice, i.e. whatever God wants.

What the ECT defender has to argue is that God desires to torture folks because that's what God wants (which is repulsive to the idea of a good God), or God can't help it (which is repulsive since God wants it but is too weak to obtain it because of the great value of human freedom). Or, God gets mere justice by getting the good creation God wanted. Which one makes good sense?

 

[GenemZ]

What is mere justice? God brings all of this into being. God is absolutely sovereign. Mere justice is God succeeded in what God sets out to do. If God sets out to create creatures in God's own image and desires to bring them into union, God will do that. That's mere justice, i.e. whatever God wants.

God is immutable. God before all else is Righteousness.

Unrighteousness must be rejected by absolute Righteousness. God's Sovereignty must work within the realm of Righteousness.

What Righteousness condemns, Justice must judge.

Sovereignty does not mean God will excuse what His Absolute Righteousness condemned.. Meaning?

God is not going to tell us later...

"I fooled you? I told you that punishment will be forever and ever, but I sovereignly decided to give into the pressure to satisfy the sentimentality of finite men who feared and terrified by my Justice. Those who wanted me to modify my essence so they can feel comfortable with the fact that I will not demand righteousness before my Righteousness can have my Justice bless.

What My Righteousness condemns.. My Justice curses."​

Some have a hard time with God's nature. He will bless those who do righteousness. But, He can not bless those who practice evil.

It was God's sovereignty that chose for the Lake of Fire to be the means to paralyze the evil of the unrighteous.

He could have made it into a giant lake that would be frozen everlastingly. But, the Lake of Fire was His sovereign choice and outcome.

 

[public hermit]

If these souls were "reformable" it would make God delinquent in allowing them to continue.

Or...delinquent in creating them. If you look for first principles, why start with a wholly contingent, dependable creature, unless your aim is to weaken divine sovereignty and gloat in the human power to destroy itself, which is true but not irredeemable?

 

[GenemZ]

​

If you're referring to Adam, his guilt is imputed to mankind, not his sin. (Romans 5:12-14, Romans 5:18)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Rom 5:12​

The Greek reader understood that when Adam sinned all sinned in a single point in time!

Meaning?

When Adam sinned we all sinned. That is why some translators resort to saying " all have sinned. "

 

[public hermit]

unrighteous

There is no righteous and unrighteous, not according to the scriptures that say all have sinned and fallen short.

You keep using righteousness as if it's a peculiar property of God that has nothing to do with God's justice.

For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts
is the house of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are his pleasant planting;
he expected justice,
but saw bloodshed;
righteousness,
but heard a cry.

What is God's righteousness, God's justice? It's not destruction and bloodshed. What did Christ come to do? He came so we might have life and have it abundantly.

You try to make God's righteousness a mytsery that has nothing to do with what babies know. It's a trick, a slight of hand, to justify a desire for bloodshed and the destruction of enemies. But God's enemies are the ones God loves, the ones for whom God incarnates and dies. So, these enemies of God are God's own beloved. If you can grasp the concept of grace, you can grasp God saving all and not needing to punish any.

 

[GenemZ]

Or...delinquent in creating them. If you look for first principles, why start with a wholly contingent, dependable creature, unless your aim is to weaken divine sovereignty and gloat in the human power to destroy itself, which is true but not irredeemable.

God revealed in the Incarnation that the Son has the power to step outside of omniscience to become the man Jesus. That is because He has two natures. Deity and Soul. Philpns 2:6-8

Who, while being in the form of God, did not regard the being equal with God a thing-to-be-grasped, but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a slave, having come in the likeness of humans. And having been found as a man in outward-appearance, He humbled Himself, having become obedient to the point of death— and a death of a cross!​

All men created were created by the Son. Col 1:16

When creating all men (like in the Incarnation) He was able to waive His omniscience while creating every soul. Creating every soul with only one thing in his desire. That every soul will choose to know and love the Father with a love that manifests beyond what we now can understand.

After all souls in the Lord's mind were created? Then He was restored to full Deity.

Then the plan for redemption was laid out. For its at that point, as God, He knew some would choose to arrogantly reject God.

That reveals and explains how God's omniscience did not deliberately create some to be condemned. ..

 

[GenemZ]

You keep using righteousness as if it's a peculiar property of God that has nothing to do with God's justice.

How are you ever going to understand anything I say if that is what you see?

God's Justice does what his Righteousness demands.

God can not accept someone lying to Him, or about Him. His Justice will deal with the liar.