Divine punishment? Is it needed?

Oleaster · Apr 15, 2022

I just realized the word bananas is not in scripture! But the Greek word karpos, usually translated into English as fruit, is better rendered as bananas sometimes, for instance “this is to me bananas” (Ph 1:22), even “bananas unto death” (Rm 7:5). I believe I have experienced a total metanoia now and shall henceforth decrease, knowing what it means to be bananas – not just dressed up in banana peels and contented to be pronounced bananas by the Lord, but literally be bananas.

sawdust · Apr 15, 2022

Death is the "punishment" for sin. Christ died on the Cross. He didn't go on to some further "punishment" for our sin.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death,

public hermit · Apr 15, 2022

Oleaster said:
I just realized the word bananas is not in scripture! But the Greek word karpos, usually translated into English as fruit, is better rendered as bananas sometimes, for instance “this is to me bananas” (Ph 1:22), even “bananas unto death” (Rm 7:5). I believe I have experienced a total metanoia now and shall henceforth decrease, knowing what it means to be bananas – not just dressed up in banana peels and contented to be pronounced bananas by the Lord, but literally be bananas.

That's nuts.

Clare73 · Apr 15, 2022

Oleaster said:
I just realized the word bananas is not in scripture! But the Greek word karpos, usually translated into English as fruit, is better rendered as bananas sometimes, for instance “this is to me bananas” (Ph 1:22), even “bananas unto death” (Rm 7:5). I believe I have experienced a total metanoia now and shall henceforth decrease, knowing what it means to be bananas – not just dressed up in banana peels and contented to be pronounced bananas by the Lord, but literally be bananas.

Do you have far to go?

You asked for it. . .metanoia is not "emptying," it is a changing of one's mind, a turning.

So there!

public hermit · Apr 15, 2022

sawdust said:
Death is the "punishment" for sin. Christ died on the Cross. He didn't go on to some further "punishment" for our sin.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death,

Did Christ takes all the punishment or is there more punishment left? Is his sacrifice sufficient for sin or is it just sufficient for those who think it's sufficient?

Oleaster · Apr 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
Do you have far to go?

I don’t know. It seems like a long way to obtain to totally being bananas, but then again as if I’m experiencing a strong foretaste of bananas already.

sawdust · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
Did Christ takes all the punishment or is there more punishment left? Is his sacrifice sufficient for sin or is it just sufficient for those who think it's sufficient?

Scripture says He is "the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world". (John 1:29) Either you believe what it says or you don't.

public hermit · Apr 15, 2022

sawdust said:
Scripture says He is "the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world". (John 1:29) Either you believe what it says or you don't.

What if you don't hear it said; what happens then?

sawdust · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
What if you don't hear it said; what happens then?

What difference does that make to the work of Christ? Do you think His mission was only successful if people know about it? He rose from the dead before anyone knew He rose from the dead.

Fervent · Apr 15, 2022

Cormack said:
Ray Comforts view on this is great fun too. “Have you ever stolen something?” Yes. “What do we call someone who steals things? A criminal!”

While I can’t think of myself as a criminal in my thirties, not because I stole a race car or a fistful of sweeties from the corner shop at the age of five. People are constitutionally different after certain experiences or stages of growth in this life.

To me, liars or robbers are people who I can’t trust not to lie or steal, they’re liars and thieves in a habitual sense, not because they ever did the act in their lives.

Metanoia is what it means to repent, meta meaning change and noia to mean mind, literally “change mind.”

Punishment can often be the catalyst for transformation, coming from a home where corporal punishment was used rather liberally I can confirm it has its own corrective properties.

Parents and authority figures are sometimes guilty of misusing their powers of correction, I’m certain that’s not an issue for God the Father however.

If high things like listening to Beethoven or reading Crime and Punishment could correct every wayward sinner, I’m sure God would use those means, rather than working through something more drastic like the cross, purgatory or hellfire.

It's rather strange how often people believe they're magnifying God by portraying Him as a brute that can't distinguish severity of punishment. Especially as the defense is to claim God is beyond question when their ideas portray Him in such unflattering terms.

Though one aspect that does not get mentioned often enough is that God's wrath is on the part of His people. God, in Himself, does not need vengeance but vengeance may play a part since the blood of martyrs cry out. Even to this day Abel's blood can be heard.

Clare73 · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
What if you don't hear it said; what happens then?

If you have truly never been acquainted with the gospel, you will be judged by the light you have, including your conscience (Romans 2:14-15), by which you will still be declared unrighteous, because you weren't righteous even according to those lights (Romans 3:9-10).

public hermit · Apr 15, 2022

Clare73 said:
If you have truly never been acquainted with the gospel, you will be judged by the light you have, including your conscience (Romans 2:14-15), by which you will still be declared unrighteous, because you weren't righteous even according to those lights (Romans 3:9-10).

In sum, you're damned before being born, or shortly there after. Yeah, no.

Andrewn · Apr 15, 2022

Hmm said:
Withers but perhaps doesn't die.

Burned but not necessarily burning eternally.

The point is that if we do not remain in Christ we don't belong to Him. This remains true whether you believe that people get a 2nd chance in hell or not.

sawdust · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
In sum, you're damned before being born, or shortly there after. Yeah, no.

If by "damned" you mean eternally screwed over without hope and the only option being relegated to the lake of fire? Then no.

We are born in bondage to death because of the sin nature (genetic corruption) in our flesh that we inherited from Adam and due to that are born spiritually dead and oblivious to spiritual matters.

But Christ is the "Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8) so there was always hope of salvation even before we were born.

public hermit · Apr 15, 2022

sawdust said:
If by "damned" you mean eternally screwed over without hope and the only option being relegated to the lake of fire? Then no.

We are born in bondage to death because of the sin nature (genetic corruption) in our flesh that we inherited from Adam and due to that are born spiritually dead and oblivious to spiritual matters.

But Christ is the "Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8) so there was always hope of salvation even before we were born.

I'm tracking that hope. It's hard to find these days amongst all these tru believers.

sawdust · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
I'm tracking that hope. It's hard to find these days amongst all these tru believers.

That might be because people tend to think sinners go to hell. Sinners are bound to death. Death is emptied before it is thrown into hell (aka lake of fire) so even unbelievers are released before the final judgement and they're not judged for their sin because Christ was, so it isn't sin that sends them to hell. Rev.20:13&14

public hermit · Apr 15, 2022

sawdust said:
That might be because people tend to think sinners go to hell. Sinners are bound to death. Death is emptied before it is thrown into hell (aka lake of fire) so even unbelievers are released before the final judgement and they're not judged for their sin because Christ was, so it isn't sin that sends them to hell. Rev.20:13&14

Still, they burn like dogs. Therefore, you see your fellows as dogs.

wendykvw · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
Did Christ takes all the punishment or is there more punishment left? Is his sacrifice sufficient for sin or is it just sufficient for those who think it's sufficient?

Christianity has four different views concerning what Christ's death on the cross accomplished. The most widely held view among Protestants is the Penal Substitution View. Other views are the Moral Government View, Christus Victor (Christ is victorious), and the Kaleidoscope View.

Generally, those with the substitution view believe Christ took all the punishment and either you must "choose Him (Arminianism) or that God will choose who wishes to redeemed ( Calvinism).

In Calvinism, God will choose a few;
In Arminianism, a few will choose God.
The early Christian Universalist, God chooses everyone and everyone will choose God.

Universalists believe Christ is Victor (Christ is victorious). This view supports the biblical theme of Christ conquering Satanic authorities, removing their authority over any part of creation. What the devil destroyed is restored through the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ conquered and defeated death and in doing so provided the redemption of all people. While Salvation is secure and can never be revoked. One must make an effort to live by the principles of Christ. John 13:34

Clare73 · Apr 15, 2022

public hermit said:
In sum, you're damned before being born, or shortly there after. Yeah, no.

According to Romans 5:18. . .

Just like the progeny of my puppy are puppies before even being conceived.

Fervent · Apr 15, 2022

kvw said:
Christianity has four different views concerning what Christ's death on the cross accomplished. The most widely held view among Protestants is the Penal Substitution View. Other views are the Moral Government View, Christus Victor (Christ is victorious), and the Kaleidoscope View.

Generally, those with the substitution view believe Christ took all the punishment and either you must "choose Him (Arminianism) or that God will choose who wishes to redeemed ( Calvinism).

In Calvinism, God will choose a few;

In Arminianism, a few will choose God.

The early Christian Universalist, God chooses everyone and everyone will choose God.

Universalists believe Christ is Victor (Christ is victorious). This view supports the biblical theme of Christ conquering Satanic authorities, removing their authority over any part of creation. What the devil destroyed is restored through the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ conquered and defeated death and in doing so provided the redemption of all people. While Salvation is secure and can never be revoked. One must make an effort to live by the principles of Christ. John 13:34

Some truth here, but not quite. Christus Victor isn't exactly an atonement theory but more a motif under which an ecclectic grouping of theories are held with the primary theory being ransom theory. Penal substitution, in spite of its name, is a satisfaction theory in which the death of Christ produced a change in God by satisfying the demands of some aspect of His being(in Penal sub this aspect is God's wrath).

As for "the early Christian Universalist" that is largely a recent myth and misunderstanding of the notion of apocatastasis through an enlightenment mindset rather than rectifying it to the ideals of the ancient writers. In short, the principal difference is the dichotomy between corporate and individual between the two. In the ancients, humanity as a corporate entity was completely saved even if individuals who were once human find themselves damned as the will and a persons humanity were seen as seperable. Modern universalism makes no such distinction, and so denies the reality of hell as an eternal decree(regardless of form). The only ancient who may have approached a modern formulation is Origen, though the works in which this is claimed are dubious whether he authored them. There's also the complicating factor of the fact that Origen was anathematized, and it is possible that his brand of universalism was also specifically anathematized( Origen's anathema is almost certain, the doctrine is questionable).

Divine punishment? Is it needed?

Is divine punishment necessary for unrepentant sin at the time of death?

Yes

No

Other

Active Member

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

Blood-bought

social troglodyte

Active Member

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Blood-bought

social troglodyte

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

Author, and Patristic Universalist Minister

Blood-bought

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency