Divine Invitation

[ContraMundum]

I just reported this thread. Not any post in particular, but the whole thread. I wrote, "This is a discussion about Divine Invitation, a position paper by FFOZ promoting non-observance for non-Jews. The base premise of this discussion is not 'Torah positive' as demanded by the SoP. This paper and the resultant discussion is in fact, also critical of various levels of Torah observance; another violation of the SoP. Since it is unsuitable for discussion in this environment, I strongly suggest it be moved to General Theology."

Great answers BTW David. I couldn't agree more. But this isn't FFOZ, so I don't see that we should be obligated to host their heresy. Anyone that wants to discuss this tripe is welcome at their website or to open a thread in General Theology where its proponents will receive more support from our mainstream Christian brethren anyway. The proponents of this position paper are welcome in either location. That is my position.

You should keep in mind that serial reporting is not only a nuisance but has in the past incurred a ban.

 

[ContraMundum]

Nope actually the position reverts to Judaism in which Christianity is in somewhat of an agreement.

Nowhere does the position say observance is done away for non Jews.

Quite true. The notion being presented here that the Torah and the particular observances of it is clear cut at all times for all peoples is quite bizzare. It's certainly not a Jewish doctrine.

The real thing happening here is about a play in silencing discussion and placing one position as the last word on the Torah. A position not one Jew holds, ironically.

The Torah sledgehammer idea is not Jewish. In fact, the attitude it seems to create is so far removed from real Torah observance it clearly is not Torah. Sure, the Torah is referenced and cited...but the conclusion looks rather like it was formed from a fundamentalist Christian paradigm. This is weird.

 

[Yahudim]

First I would like to publicly state that I have wronged ContraMundum.​

I made some assumptions about this man that were incorrect and my statements about him, based on those assumptions were likewise incorrect. For this and for the personal pain I now know that my remarks must have had on him, I now make a public apology for all of my brothers and sisters to witness. I was wrong.

He is my brother in Messiah no matter our differences in doctrine and viewpoint. I am truly sorry for any pain I caused. That said, our differences remain. I hope to conduct our discussion of these differences in a much more civil manner.

ContraMundum, I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me. I know I have wronged you and I am truly sorry.

The more I read your stuff and compare it to proper MJ position statements out there in the world the more I am convinced that the onus is on you to prove that the mainstream MJ position is not "true" MJism, and your take on it is. It seems to me that you take a very radical "everyone must keep the 613 laws" position which is ill-defined at best and certainly foreign to mainstream MJism. Also, your take on what constitutes being "Torah positive" as per SoP is a bit strict (compared to most MJs) and without a lot of grace or warranty of MJ historical praxis. IOW- I don't think you are right on calling all the shots on halacha.

Brother, please take this criticism in the spirit it is offered, but no one can keep all 613 laws without violating them, as I am sure a Torah teacher of your stature is fully aware. I keep hearing this same phrase used in relation to this argument from people that know better and I can only marvel as to why they say it. I know that "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female..." but I don't see that I am obligated to the laws of nidda.

You say, "The more I read your stuff and compare it to proper MJ position statements... etc.". This is not as if it is my stuff. This is the majority view held here in this place. It is reflected in the SoP, one based on the majority opinion - polled, voted, agreed upon by this forum membership and ratified by Christian Forums administration. This is not the FFOZ, the MJAA, the UMJC, or any other Alphabet organization claiming rights they do not possess. This is a forum that reflects the majority view of its membership on Torah observance. You should probably get over that.

You say. "Also, your take on what constitutes being "Torah positive" as per SoP... etc." Why make this about me? This sounds like your problem is with the Messianic site adviser and not me. All of our statement about Torah observance are supposed to be positive. Look around. In this thread alone there have been numerous statements about Torah observance that do not endorse it.

Perhaps it is about time you put forward exactly what you think everyone should believe and practice? Point by point, law by law. Including the proper way that you think each law should be done. Please begin.

If you prove yourself right I promise publically that I'll forward your teachings to the MJAA and the UMJC and others to make sure they fall in line. I wonder how they will respond.

Seriously. I'm really interested in this.

If my view were just an empty echo of those organizations, I would spend time in their forums where I could get my ego stroked ad nausium. Besides, judging by your tone, my views would get about as much traction over there as they do in General Theology. I'm OK with that. That is why I like it here, where the concept of Torah observance is protected by the SoP. I have said this too many times, but it still bears repeating. There are many places on the web where anyone can go to discuss how and who are NOT obligated to keep the Law. This isn't one of them.

You should keep in mind that serial reporting is not only a nuisance but has in the past incurred a ban.

You seem to be making assumptions about me. You might want to learn from my mistake. I made assumptions about you and had to eat my words. Btw, I am still very sorry about that. Seriously. I was wrong. I'm sorry.

Your brother in Him,
Phillip

 

[Yahudim]

Quite true. The notion being presented here that the Torah and the particular observances of it is clear cut at all times for all peoples is quite bizzare. It's certainly not a Jewish doctrine.

The real thing happening here is about a play in silencing discussion and placing one position as the last word on the Torah. A position not one Jew holds, ironically.

The Torah sledgehammer idea is not Jewish. In fact, the attitude it seems to create is so far removed from real Torah observance it clearly is not Torah. Sure, the Torah is referenced and cited...but the conclusion looks rather like it was formed from a fundamentalist Christian paradigm. This is weird.

My dear brothers,

There is not anything any more bizarre than to suggest that this forum membership should adhere to the beliefs of a modern traditional Jew. Nor should there any expectation that we, as Torah observant Messianic Judaism, should accept the traditions of mainstream Christianity on the topic of Torah obligation.

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (read: Goyim), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you(read: Torah): and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is a direct definitive statement and commandment of Y'shua in context, not some man-made tradition or strange doctrine painstakingly teased from the split-ends of a mistaken midrash.

Short version: Y'shua said to teach the Gentiles to observe Torah. You have a problem with that? You think that is 'bizarre'? Then please address your concerns to Him and not to me. I have done all that I am able, except to continue to share His commandments.

Blessings,
Phillip

 

[Shimshon]

Quite true. The notion being presented here that the Torah and the particular observances of it is clear cut at all times for all peoples is quite bizzare. It's certainly not a Jewish doctrine.

The real thing happening here is about a play in silencing discussion and placing one position as the last word on the Torah. A position not one Jew holds, ironically.

The Torah sledgehammer idea is not Jewish. In fact, the attitude it seems to create is so far removed from real Torah observance it clearly is not Torah. Sure, the Torah is referenced and cited...but the conclusion looks rather like it was formed from a fundamentalist Christian paradigm. This is weird.

Yes, thank you for again stating the plainly obvious. I'd say more, but my gag is quite tight around here these days. They have me all tied up to the temple supports.

 

[Yahudim]

Yes, thank you for again stating the plainly obvious. I'd say more, but my gag is quite tight around here these days. They have me all tied up to the temple supports.

Hi David,

Charles Ryalls asked about you recently. Do you have his contact info?

 

[yedida]

He wasn't so on topic because visionary is referring to the New Heaven and New Earth. In this case the Law was added to the Abrahamic covenant. If no golden calf incident then no '613 commandments'. I put that in parenthesis to show that I mean something. After the golden calf incident then came the 613 commandments. These commandments were given to a specific people's, the children of Israel.

Now the issue here is whether or not if other people's are obligated to observe in the same manner as the people who they were specifically given too.

Do whaaaat?

 

[yedida]

Divine Invitation isn't about non Torah observance for non Jews. It's a difference between being obligated or not. Divine Invitation doesn't condemn non Jews from observance, it addresses non Jews OBLIGATION.

So you are wrong.

It becomes Torah positive when a believer like yourself becomes observant in which the likes of FFOZ and myself wouldn't condemn or discourage. The issue is OBLIGATION.

I was adopted into the family that raised me. They weren't even God and I sure don't remember being given an "invitation" to obey their rules!!!

 

[yedida]

Nope actually the position reverts to Judaism in which Christianity is in somewhat of an agreement.

Nowhere does the position say observance is done away for non Jews.

The position is about OBLIGATION. What makes Messianic Judaism different is that there isn't a discouragement with non Jews observance.

No discouragement? That's laughable!

 

[Yahudim]

I was adopted into the family that raised me. They weren't even God and I sure don't remember being given an "invitation" to obey their rules!!!

Tell 'em Sis.

 

[yedida]

My dear brothers,

There is not anything any more bizarre than to suggest that this forum membership should adhere to the beliefs of a modern traditional Jew. Nor should there any expectation that we, as Torah observant Messianic Judaism, should accept the traditions of mainstream Christianity on the topic of Torah obligation.

Mat 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (read: Goyim), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you(read: Torah): and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This is a direct definitive statement and commandment of Y'shua in context, not some man-made tradition or strange doctrine painstakingly teased from the split-ends of a mistaken midrash.

Short version: Y'shua said to teach the Gentiles to observe Torah. You have a problem with that? You think that is 'bizarre'? Then please address your concerns to Him and not to me. I have done all that I am able, except to continue to share His commandments.

Blessings,
Phillip

Amen!! Seems we are literally in the proverbial "between a rock and a hard place". What to do? What to do? No acceptance anywhere.
And you're right. It's not us they have a problem with, it's the Book we are all trying to live by, isn't it?

(And just why do you think you're so special that you're exempt from niddah? lol)

 

[yedida]

Tell 'em Sis.

Yep. My mom and dad also had 3 natural birth children and we were all raised with the "my way or the highway" attitude. God isn't as good a parent? He cares less? (For I know my parents thought their way was better for us in the long run then our childish way would have been.) God doesn't think His way is better for us? I don't believe it.

 

[etZion]

Been reading the Divine Invitation paper by FFOZ. I think the paper/theology is misunderstood. Actually it's contradictory.

Absolutely contradictory, I have not read this thread, so someone might have already mentioned, but Tim Hegg, has an excellent rebuttal of DI on his website...

 

[Yahudim]

Absolutely contradictory, I have not read this thread, so someone might have already mentioned, but Tim Hegg, has an excellent rebuttal of DI on his website...

Gotta link?

 

[etZion]

Gotta link?

Ha, that would be good right?

An Assessment of the "Divine Invitation" Teaching with Audio Book - FREE (direct download)

Just add to cart, it is free though.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Gotta link?

Here is a link to his free PDF:

http://www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/DivineInvitation_Response.pdf

 

[Steve Petersen]

Sad to see, but it seems that FFOZ is falling into the sway of Mark Kinzer. Much of what Kinzer has said in his book Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism I might agree with; but his notion of a 'bilateral ecclesia' that is 'equal but separate' really tees me off. He wants Gentiles out of Messianic congregations and back in church. I am not sure to what degree Boaz Michael has adopted this philosophy, but his new book Tent of David seems to be at least encouraging this for SOME Gentile Messianics. I hope it does not continue to evolve into the 'equal but separate' stance of Kinzer.

Jim Crow is apparently alive and well at the UMJC; pray he is shown the door at FFOZ.

 

[yedida]

Sad to see, but it seems that FFOZ is falling into the sway of Mark Kinzer. Much of what Kinzer has said in his book Post-Missionary Messianic Judaism I might agree with; but his notion of a 'bilateral ecclesia' that is 'equal but separate' really tees me off. He wants Gentiles out of Messianic congregations and back in church. I am not sure to what degree Boaz Michael has adopted this philosophy, but his new book Tent of David seems to be at least encouraging this for SOME Gentile Messianics. I hope it does not continue to evolve into the 'equal but separate' stance of Kinzer.

Jim Crow is apparently alive and well at the UMJC; pray he is shown the door at FFOZ.

I'm going to venture that it's a blessing to me that I don't know of this Jim Crow as I thought I was pretty up to speed with the folks at FFoZ....

 

[Steve Petersen]

I'm going to venture that it's a blessing to me that I don't know of this Jim Crow as I thought I was pretty up to speed with the folks at FFoZ....

Wanna know?

 

[visionary]

Wanna know?

sure..