Dispensationalism

[@@Paul@@]

Could someone please help with a few specific problems I’m having with Mid-Acts and Acts 28 Dispensationalism?

In Romans 16:7, Paul sends his greetings to saints whom he declares were “in Christ before me.” If being in Christ means the same here as in Galations 3:28 (neither Jew nor Greek, etc.), then the church (body of Christ) must have begun prior to Paul’s conversion. What else could he mean?

Another hint of the body of Christ existing before Paul’s conversion is found in Acts 9:5, where the Lord says, “I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest.” This implies that Jewish believers were already in Christ, because if you hurt the body, you are hurting the head. Doesn’t this imagery correspond with what Paul wrote later about the body of Christ, and how if one member suffers, all suffer?

Note the phrase here was “in Christ” we are one; this is ONLY referring to salvation. Jew and Gentile could approach Christ for salvation on a perfect equality. The Jew at this time (on this earth) was still first place, (to the Jew first) as long as God is working out His earthly plan with Israel, they will always be in first place.

It was not until after Israel was cast aside that Jew/Gentile could be in perfect equality on this earth…

Deu 28:13-15 KJV
(13) And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:​

There was TWO mysteries directly referring to the “body of Christ”. The first was (in a sense) hid BY the scriptures of the prophets, and the other was Hid in God. Take a look at Paul’s writings during the acts period, He was pretty clear on the fact that everything he was doing was previously revealed in the scriptures.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)​

So, Mystery #1 was that the Gentiles were to be “blessed” by the seed of Abraham BEFORE the nation of Israel was restored and that Gentiles would have access to God through Christ, NOT through Israel. “In Christ they were one”. Now lets briefly look at why this was done.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.​

Paul states; the reason salvation was sent to the Gentiles was to provoke Israel to jealousy OR to provoke Israel to emulation. This fits right in to the parable of the olive tree. Israel was being provoked by a “foolish nation” to “excite by rivalry” the true olive tree (Rom. 11) in order that she may produce her own fruit.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

Notice in verse 5 Paul states this mystery had a new twist. It was not made known as is NOW revealed, it had been revealed but not to this extent. Three times over in verse 6 the Holy Spirit uses a variation of a little Greek word SOO, which comes over to English as syn: SYNthetic, SYNthesis etc..etc.. this “prefix” means “on a perfect equality”.

Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs,4789 and of the same body,4954 and partakers4830 of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

We could also say that the Gentiles were made JOINT-Heirs of a JOINT-Body and JOINT-Partakers on a perfect equality.
So in a sense you are right, the “body” began to form with Paul’s work during the acts period BUT there was a mystery attached to the head and also one attached to the body.

This was not revealed until AFTER God’s plan for Israel was placed on hold.

I am also having a problem with 2 Corinthians 3:6, where Paul says God has, “made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant”. Isn’t Paul supposed to be a minister of reconciliation and the new creation body of Christ, rather than the new covenant? I simply cannot believe that Paul was speaking figuratively here.

But as we noticed above, Paul’s purpose was for Israel (the people WITH the covenants) during the Acts period.

Act 28:20 For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​

For the hope of ISRAEL Paul was bound with his chain and for that same hope, Paul wished himself accursed from Christ for Israel, NOT for the Gentiles. That's a pretty bold statement wouldn't you say?

It’s not until the full extent of the mystery had been revealed to Paul, did he say:

Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ​

First Corinthians 11:25 states how the Lord Himself revealed to Paul that, “This cup is the new covenant in My Blood”. Apparently, just like other mysteries, Jesus specifically gave this to Paul, instead of letting him get it from the 12 apostles to Israel. Receiving mysteries in such a manner is a major point that dispensationalists make to emphasize the revelations of Paul for the Gentiles. Why did the risen Lord take special care to make Paul aware of the new covenant in His Blood, if he were not to then share that with the Gentiles, just like the mystery regarding the administration of Grace? Either the new covenant in Jesus’ Blood is as important to His church body as it is to earthly millenial kingdom Israel or it isn’t. Paul went into great detail regarding the Lord’s Supper, but never went back to correct the Gentiles telling them no longer to celebrate it. The prison epistles gave us no new instructions for assembling that excluded sharing the cup of the new covenant until Jesus returns. Does anyone else see what I’m getting at here?

I’m not sure I understand this. I think the above comments may help. PS. We are not children of covenant, we are children of promise!

When searching for answers, I ran across the following: The Church's relation to the shed Blood of the Cross is based upon Hebrews 13:20: "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant." And what are the Church's benefits now and forever, from the Blood of the Everlasting Covenant? "But now in Christ Jesus ye who once were far off are made nigh by the Blood of Christ." "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the Holiest by the Blood of Jesus" (Eph. 2:13; Heb. 10:19). That benefit of the Blood, Israel will never know, nor even approximate. What will Israel's benefit be from the Blood of her New Covenant? "I will forgive their iniquity," and "I will cleanse them" (Jer. 31:34; Ezek. 37:23). That is the total benefit of the Blood to future kingdom Israel, from their New Covenant. The same Blood was shed for both the Church and Israel, but not with the same results.

Right… We received the blood by promise, Israel through the covenant.

Now, I personally can almost accept this idea, except for the fact that Paul relates his own ministry in Corinthians to the new covenant (Israel’s benefit), instead of relating it to the everlasting covenant (Gentiles’ benefit). Again I ask, why is Paul even speaking of covenants (everlasting OR new) at all? Is it okay to say that a dispensation may be connected to an everlasting covenant, but that the new covenant cannot be connected to a dispensation of Grace? If it works in one direction, why not the other way? It seems that either the body of Christ really began back at Acts 2 Pentecost (Rom 16:7 those in Christ before Paul), or that maybe covenants and dispensations can exist at the same time. Maybe like a software engineer, God always has a mainframe Covenant disk drive running in the background, while opening and executing Dispensational files within the parent program as needed (or something like that).

Any and all comments would be appreciated.

I think you’re almost there. What you need to realize is Paul’s purpose during Acts as opposed to his purpose after Acts.

Keep in mind that there are three different stories of Paul’s conversion in Acts. Possibly relating to the three different “evolutions” of His ministry.

1. Earthly purpose (previously recorded in scripture, kept secret since the foundation of the world)
a. the body of Christ. Jew/Gentiles one (in Christ)
2. Heavenly purpose (kept secret before the world began)
b. the church, which is His Body. Jew/Gentiles on a perfect equality (as made know previously, but not to the full extent. IE: as is NOW revealed)
c. The heavenly calling of this body, which was hid in God.

I hope this helps…

 

[A Man In ROANOKE]

Thanks Paul,

I'm going to reflect more on your answers, and see if it doesn't start to sink in better!

 

[inhimitrust]

Hi Justme,

Jesus told the disciples...

HEREAFTER I will not talk much with you: for "the prince" of this world Cometh, and hath nothing in Me (Jo. 14:30).

I know Satan was coming THEN, but I have not made the other connection!

Lady Goodnews

I think "dispensationlism" makes a mockery of God and the bible, and am glad I never believed in it.
The "prince" of this world was already there. They were of the synagogue of satan, just as Jesus told them they were of their father the "devil". They had nothing on Him, but crucified Him anyway. The prince was finally cast out in 70ad thru God and the roman army. Even Paul mentioned them as "satan", which would be crushed shortly. You have to remember, the enemies of Christ and all of His followers were the religious rulers and priests in Jerusalem, not the romans. Look at how God referred to those rulers in priests in the OT!! He was going to bring a disaster on them that had never been done before and never to be done again.
As Paul said, there is no more jew or gentile, but all under Christ. Why would Christ come back to say the same thing again?
If you know who God is referring to in Ezekiel, you will know what revelation is about. Chapt 21 describes "babylon", just before chapt 22 on Jerusalem's sins.

Ezekiel 5:-- 8 "therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Indeed I, even I, [am] against you and will execute judgments in your midst in the sight of the nations. 9 'And I will do among you what I have never done, and the like of which I will never do again, because of all your abominations. (70ad)?10 'Therefore fathers shall eat [their] sons in your midst, and sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments among you, and all of you who remain I will scatter to all the winds.
Ezekiel 14:21 For thus says the Lord GOD: "How much more it shall be when I send My four severe judgments on Jerusalem -- the sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence -- to cut off man and beast from it?

 

[@@Paul@@]

Thanks Paul,

I'm going to reflect more on your answers, and see if it doesn't start to sink in better!

Let me know if anything was confusing (or is still),,, I'll try to re-word...

 

[inhimitrust]

Let me know if anything was confusing (or is still),,, I'll try to re-word...

So do you believe that Israel still has a seperate plan under God or that He reconciled everyone to Him in the first century and there are no distinctions between any person? Remember, Isarael was spiritual Jacob, born of Isaac, born of Abraham through the Holy Spirit. Ishmael was born of the flesh, Isaac, Jacob and Esau were all born of the spirit which is of Christ. Jerusalem turned into Esau and Edom, while those accepting Christ were of spiritual Jacob, Isaac and Abraham. And also don't forget, thru Abraham all nations would be blessed, for those that accept the righteousness that is thru Christ and this was all 12 tribes[who were hebrews, not jews] and nations, not just the "jews" of the House of Judah. Christ came to redeem all manking thru Him, first the jews, then gentile, and after taking out Jerusalem in 70ad, the whole world came under God and only those in Christ would be God's chosen elect, no one else.
Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David["beloved"], the Son of Abraham["father of nations"]:

The jews of today of course practice the same kind of Judaism that God and Christ condemened, but it is not because of a "blindness", as they read the same bible as we do, but because of pride and the same kind of misinterpretations of scripture before Christ came, they continue to think that Christ was "our messiah" and not theirs[they feel we worship an "idol", as I have been to many jewish forums to try and convince other christians from joining judaism and giving up Christ]. They are still God fearing people, but not any less than other religions that believe in God and practice righteousness that is of Christ. Everyone on this planet has access to the bible and even if a lot don't, they know of an existence of God because of the world and universe around us, and the concience of Man that convicts us of right or wrong, so there is no excuse, except to be saved by God's grace and compassion. As God said, "I have mercy on whom I have mercy". So it is not up to us, but God Himself, who by the light of Christ shows us to the true path of salvation, by living the righteousness that is in Him,.

 

[@@Paul@@]

So do you believe that Israel still has a seperate plan under God or that He reconciled everyone to Him in the first century and there are no distinctions between any person?

God has always had a plan for Israel (call it separate if you wish) and i also believe there is no distinction between any persons,,,, today, however, I do believe there will be a time when there is again a distinction.

Remember, Isarael was spiritual Jacob, born of Isaac, born of Abraham through the Holy Spirit. Ishmael was born of the flesh, Isaac, Jacob and Esau were all born of the spirit which is of Christ. Jerusalem turned into Esau and Edom, while those accepting Christ were of spiritual Jacob, Isaac and Abraham. And also don't forget, thru Abraham all nations would be blessed, for those that accept the righteousness that is thru Christ and this was all 12 tribes[who were hebrews, not jews] and nations, not just the "jews" of the House of Judah.

The 12 tribes are true Israel, as the phyical seed of Jacob is counted for the promise... The Hebrew nation started with Abraham, Israel began with Isaac > Jacob.

 

[inhimitrust]

God has always had a plan for Israel (call it separate if you wish) and i also believe there is no distinction between any persons,,,, today, however, I do believe there will be a time when there is again a distinction.



The 12 tribes are true Israel, as the phyical seed of Jacob is counted for the promise... The Hebrew nation started with Abraham, Israel began with Isaac > Jacob.

What distinction? You mean a second chance for unbelivers in the future? You appear to make it more confusing than it is. Paul described exactly what Jacob and Isaac represented: those of Abraham/Christ are of the promise, period. What the heck makes you think Christ is going to come down again to give anyone a second chance to believe? Christ said He was not of this world, meaning once He went up to the Father, His would be a spiritual kingdom and that is how His people would worship God. That is why I myself think it is dangerous to even assume an "earthly" reign.
Sorry, but I don't buy the "second chance" theory of another "earthly" kingdom for anyone.

 

[@@Paul@@]

What distinction? You mean a second chance for unbelivers in the future? You appear to make it more confusing than it is. Paul described exactly what Jacob and Isaac represented: those of Abraham/Christ are of the promise, period. What the heck makes you think Christ is going to come down again to give anyone a second chance to believe? Christ said He was not of this world, meaning once He went up to the Father, His would be a spiritual kingdom and that is how His people would worship God. That is why I myself think it is dangerous to even assume an "earthly" reign.
Sorry, but I don't buy the "second chance" theory of another "earthly" kingdom for anyone.

Sorry, i'm not trying to be confusing. There will be a time when the Jew is again in first place.

I believe in a physical reign of Christ in David's earthly throne as promised. I don't see how believing in such a kingdom is second chance.

What Paul described was the promise (singular) of Christ by the gospel (Salvation to all). This has nothing to do with any other promises (plural) made to the nation of Israel.

 

[Barley]

[QUOTE..........[There will be a time when the Jew is again in first place.]

Paul, who do you see as being a "true Jew" today?
How would you discribe that person in a way which would set him or her apart from a non Jew?

Barley

 

[Curt]

The Word of God,
Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Matt 12:49-50
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(KJV)

Acts 17:26-27
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
(KJV)

Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(KJV)

 

[Barley]

Curt, OK who then are the people of Israel today as discribed by the Bible?
Barley

 

[@@Paul@@]

[QUOTE..........[There will be a time when the Jew is again in first place.]

Paul, who do you see as being a "true Jew" today?
How would you discribe that person in a way which would set him or her apart from a non Jew?

Barley

The same way Paul described them See Romans 9,10 & 11. There is NO distinction today.

But i'm not really sure what you're asking.

 

[@@Paul@@]

The Word of God,
Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Matt 12:49-50
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
(KJV)

Matt 21:43
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(KJV)

Acts 17:26-27
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
(KJV)

Rom 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(KJV)

Heck, i could quote one verse at a time, giving no explaination and prove it's OK to kill sheep.

 

[inhimitrust]

Curt, OK who then are the people of Israel today as discribed by the Bible?
Barley

They are called Israelites who practice judaism thru the manmade Talmud and sage writings. They deny Christ because they feel He didn't accomplish the promises of God in the OT. Even Islam believes in Jesus Christ, so they are not anti-christ, but they also use manmade teachings thru the Koran and Muhammed and they feel they are God's chosen.
If we believe the bible and God's word, then we who believe that Christ was born of God, was crucified, resurrected and ascended into Heaven are God's chosen and the real "Jew" of today. God destroyed Jerusalem and the temple with His power and might thru the roman army and scattered the remaining jews among the other "10 scattered tribes" thruout the world, so essentially, the original jews ceased to exist, as just as God divorced the original 10 northern tribes of Israel, He in essence "divorced" the 2 southern tribes of Judah and so all of Israel is of one "nation", all of us. Remember, Israel was Jacob and who Christ represented, so those who believe unto Christ are of "Jacob", those that don't are of "Esau" (whom God "hated" and what Jerusalem essentially became representative of).
Look what happened to the sadducees, preist and rulers after Jeruselem, considered Christ's enemies in the old and new testement; they became His footstool.

The Sadducees rejected the concept of resurrection, because it was considered of pagan foreign origin. They followed the ancient Jewish beliefs about Sheol as they were before Greek influence modified them. They also did not believe in fate, in demons or in angels. The Sadducees believed that God would reward the righteous and punish the wicked during their lifetime on earth. They were in charge of the Temple and its rituals. They felt that as long as animal sacrifices and other rituals were continued in Jerusalem, that Israel would continue without major disasters. After the Roman army attacked and destroyed the Temple and the rest of Jerusalem in 70 CE, they were bitterly disillusioned. They ceased to exist as a cohesive group shortly afterwards. By the end of the 1st century CE, they had essentially disappeared.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/aft_bibl3.htm

Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.
Ezek 36:24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands, and bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
Ezek 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new SPIRIT within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 "And I will put My SPIRIT within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Ezekiel 5:1 "And you, son of man, take a sharp sword, take it as a barber's razor, and pass [it] over your head and your beard; then take scales to weigh and divide the hair. 2 "You shall burn with fire one-third in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are finished; then you shall take one-third and strike around [it] with the sword, and one-third you shall scatter in the wind: I will draw out a sword after them. 3 "You shall also take a small number of them and bind them in the edge of your [garment.](could this be the saved elect?) 5 " Thus says the Lord GOD: 'This [is] Jerusalem; I have set her in the midst of the nations and the countries all around her.

Ezekie 4:4 " Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel(10 tribes) upon it. [According] to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. 5 "For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, 390 days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 "And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah(2 tribes) forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year. 7 "Therefore you shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem; your arm [shall be] uncovered, and you shall prophesy against it. 8 "And surely I will restrain you so that you cannot turn from one side to another till you have ended the days of your siege.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Remember, Israel was Jacob and who Christ represented, so those who believe unto Christ are of Jacob, those that don't are of Esau

Nowhere will you find in the Word of God that we today are the seed or Jacob. We are only refered to as the "seed of Abraham", through which we are counted for THE promise of Christ by the gospel only.

(Gal 3:16 KJV) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
(Gal 3:29 KJV) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.​

Paul makes it very clear in his latter epistle to the Romans that:

Rom 9:6-8 KJV
(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(7) Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
(8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.​

Here in verse 7 the "children of the flesh" is a "pun" for Ishmael, the "children of the promise" likewise for Isaac. Basically, 'certain' promises made to Abraham are being passed down through Isaac, NOT Ishmael.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.​

Same goes here. Jacob is counted for the promise, not Esau.

So there is a BIG difference in being the seed of Abraham and the seed of Jacob.

Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.​

 

[Barley]

Inhimitrust, your faith is in the right place. Thanks for your posts.

Paul, I think dispensationalism has muddied the water. I have found it interesting to trace doctrines back in time to when they first gained popularity. Yea, I know, we all get our doctines out of the Bible. But look at the teachings that Darby, Schofield and a few before them taught, that were not even heard of before them. Let alone taught in the different denominations.

Below are some scriptures that I can't seem to align with what you are teaching.
If you can please explain them to me as you understand.

Barley

Isa 65:8-9
8 This is what the LORD says: "As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and men say, 'Don't destroy it, there is yet some good in it,' so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
(NIV)
Isa 65:12-15
12 I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me."
13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "My servants will eat, but you will go hungry; my servants will drink, but you will go thirsty; my servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame.
14 My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.
15 You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.
(NIV)

 

[@@Paul@@]

Inhimitrust, your faith is in the right place. Thanks for your posts.

Paul, I think dispensationalism has muddied the water. I have found it interesting to trace doctrines back in time to when they first gained popularity. Yea, I know, we all get our doctines out of the Bible. But look at the teachings that Darby, Schofield and a few before them taught, that were not even heard of before them. Let alone taught in the different denominations.

Any "premillenial" postion teaches a form of "dispensationalism" and as another post here has proven, Has always been around.

Below are some scriptures that I can't seem to align with what you are teaching.
If you can please explain them to me as you understand.
Barley

Isa 65:8-9
8 This is what the LORD says: "As when juice is still found in a cluster of grapes and men say, 'Don't destroy it, there is yet some good in it,' so will I do in behalf of my servants; I will not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live.
(NIV)
Isa 65:12-15
12 I will destine you for the sword, and you will all bend down for the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me."
13 Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "My servants will eat, but you will go hungry; my servants will drink, but you will go thirsty; my servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame.
14 My servants will sing out of the joy of their hearts, but you will cry out from anguish of heart and wail in brokenness of spirit.
15 You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.
(NIV)

If you could state what exactly is confusing? Verses 8-9 clearly are refering to Christ and a "remnant" which will be saved. Possible refering to Israel's Future (Romans chapter 11)... ??

I don't see this as being a reference to ANY Gentiles or that Israel has been cast off for good and replaced with a church...

We already know that God will take them back.

Hos 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.​

 

[inhimitrust]

Any "premillenial" postion teaches a form of "dispensationalism" and as another post here has proven, Has always been around.


If you could state what exactly is confusing? Verses 8-9 clearly are refering to Christ and a "remnant" which will be saved. Possible refering to Israel's Future (Romans chapter 11)... ??

I don't see this as being a reference to ANY Gentiles or that Israel has been cast off for good and replaced with a church...



We already know that God will take them back.

Hos 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.​

Hosea is talking about betrothing His elect, us, those that believe unto His Son Jesus and are of the faith of Abraham "Father of nations". Christ didn't come for all the jews, but for the "lost sheep", which the "shepards" were leading astray and whom Christ, Paul and John the baptist were condemning. Paul comes to the rest of the "world", to preach Christ, grace and the coming of Christ to redeem them and save them from the synagogue of "satan", the corrupt priests and rulers in Jerusalem. After Paul died, the right hand of God did come and deliver them, by destroying the temple and Jerusalem just as Christ and the prophets of God in the OT predicted.
If the Old Covenant was the "old heaven and earth", then the New Convenant must be the "new heaven and earth", and that could only take place with the destruction of the physical OC, Jerusalem.
If this didn't happen in the first century, then there is no New Covenant or new heaven and earth.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hosea is talking about betrothing His elect, us, those that believe unto His Son Jesus and are of the faith of Abraham "Father of nations". Christ didn't come for all the jews, but for the "lost sheep", which the "shepards" were leading astray and whom Christ, Paul and John the baptist were condemning. Paul comes to the rest of the "world", to preach Christ, grace and the coming of Christ to redeem them and save them from the synagogue of "satan", the corrupt priests and rulers in Jerusalem. After Paul died, the right hand of God did come and deliver them, by destroying the temple and Jerusalem just as Christ and the prophets of God in the OT predicted.
If the Old Covenant was the "old heaven and earth", then the New Convenant must be the "new heaven and earth", and that could only take place with the destruction of the physical OC, Jerusalem.
If this didn't happen in the first century, then there is no New Covenant or new heaven and earth.

Your right!! there is NO New Covenant in place today, nor is there a New Heaven and a New earth... .............. yet

 

[inhimitrust]

Your right!! there is NO New Covenant in place today, nor is there a New Heaven and a New earth... .............. yet

Ok, whatever your spirit tells you. The new heaven and earth came after the destruction of the old heaven and earth, Jerusalem in 70ad. Revelation describes it perfectly(it follows Ezekiel and Zechariah, Hosea and Micah almost perfect), but since most here look at is as a futuristic book, it will continue to just make millions of dollars on prophecy books and movies.
My blessed hope has already been fulfilled, Christ, thru God's Holy Spirit came to me and opened up my eyes to His truth in the bible, and I couldn't be happier that God did indeed fulfill all of His promises in the bible. If you want to continue living in the old heaven and earth(old Jerusalem of the first century, which God destroyed thru His devine will as prophecied). But I am living in the new heaven and earth(New Jerusalem), under God thru His Holy Spirit, and to me, the Bible is complete and is how I read it.
Anyway, good luck to you and other in your walk with God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I am leaving the forums as my belief in fulfillment of the bible is contrary to the "rules" of this forum, and one rule I will never be able to understand. Good bye and God bless.