Dispensationalism

[@@Paul@@]

Ok, whatever your spirit tells you. The new heaven and earth came after the destruction of the old heaven and earth, Jerusalem in 70ad. Revelation describes it perfectly(it follows Ezekiel and Zechariah, Hosea and Micah almost perfect), but since most here look at is as a futuristic book, it will continue to just make millions of dollars on prophecy books and movies.
My blessed hope has already been fulfilled, Christ, thru God's Holy Spirit came to me and opened up my eyes to His truth in the bible, and I couldn't be happier that God did indeed fulfill all of His promises in the bible. If you want to continue living in the old heaven and earth(old Jerusalem of the first century, which God destroyed thru His devine will as prophecied). But I am living in the new heaven and earth(New Jerusalem), under God thru His Holy Spirit, and to me, the Bible is complete and is how I read it.
Anyway, good luck to you and other in your walk with God and His Son, Jesus Christ. I am leaving the forums as my belief in fulfillment of the bible is contrary to the "rules" of this forum, and one rule I will never be able to understand. Good bye and God bless.

See you one the otherside...

God Bless.

 

[inhimitrust]

See you one the otherside...

God Bless.

Same here brother

 

[FreeinChrist]

Ok, whatever your spirit tells you. The new heaven and earth came after the destruction of the old heaven and earth, Jerusalem in 70ad. Revelation describes it perfectly(it follows Ezekiel and Zechariah, Hosea and Micah almost perfect), but since most here look at is as a futuristic book, it will continue to just make millions of dollars on prophecy books and movies.

But the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD does not work well with Revelation or with Zechariah 12-14. Not at all. There are glaring problems.

For one, the AC. Nero doesn't fit, for he died in 68 AD, before the destruction of Jerusalem. Nor did he sit in the temple declaring himself God. Titus doesn't fit, for he was not defeated but left victorious Jerusalem victorious. The AC is defeated soundly in Revelation and thrown in the lake of fire. Titus went on to become Caeser.

Two, all the people in the world, even just in the Roman empire, did not come to Jerusalem to worship. Even if you spiritualize Zechariah 14 to be beleiving in Christ, Rome remained pagan for another 200 plus years.

Three, if you claim the AC or the woman on the beast is apostate Judaism, it is still around. Jerusalem itself was destroyed, but Jewish communities thrived elsewhere. There was another Jewish Revolt in 135 AD - that doesn't fit with Revelation at all.

Four, Revelation was written in 95-96 AD, well after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was written on Patmos. Nero did not banish Christians to Patmos, he tortured and killed them. Dominitan banish to Patmos and there is support of this from Roman historians (Dio Cassius - 150-235 AD) and the writings of early church fathers such as Tertullian (160- 220 AD), Irenaeus (120-202 AD), Victorinus (writing about 302 AD), and Eusebius (260 - 340) who very probably referred to Hegesipus's Memoirs (150 AD) when writing the Ecclesiatical History 3.11-20. And there is Jerome (340- 419 AD) and historian Sulpius Serverus (c.400).
As far as I am concerned, that totally destroys preterism.



My suggestion, inhimitrust, is that since you are a relatively new Christian of one year, that you retain a learning frame of mind, and don't too quickly get dogmatic about an endtime view. My guess is that you read a preterist site or work, and it sounded good...and so you believe it. But under close exam, it just doesn't hold. It didn't in my opinion.

 

[inhimitrust]

But the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD does not work well with Revelation or with Zechariah 12-14. Not at all. There are glaring problems.

For one, the AC. Nero doesn't fit, for he died in 68 AD, before the destruction of Jerusalem. Nor did he sit in the temple declaring himself God. Titus doesn't fit, for he was not defeated but left victorious Jerusalem victorious. The AC is defeated soundly in Revelation and thrown in the lake of fire. Titus went on to become Caeser.

Two, all the people in the world, even just in the Roman empire, did not come to Jerusalem to worship. Even if you spiritualize Zechariah 14 to be beleiving in Christ, Rome remained pagan for another 200 plus years.

Three, if you claim the AC or the woman on the beast is apostate Judaism, it is still around. Jerusalem itself was destroyed, but Jewish communities thrived elsewhere. There was another Jewish Revolt in 135 AD - that doesn't fit with Revelation at all.

Four, Revelation was written in 95-96 AD, well after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was written on Patmos. Nero did not banish Christians to Patmos, he tortured and killed them. Dominitan banish to Patmos and there is support of this from Roman historians (Dio Cassius - 150-235 AD) and the writings of early church fathers such as Tertullian (160- 220 AD), Irenaeus (120-202 AD), Victorinus (writing about 302 AD), and Eusebius (260 - 340) who very probably referred to Hegesipus's Memoirs (150 AD) when writing the Ecclesiatical History 3.11-20. And there is Jerome (340- 419 AD) and historian Sulpius Serverus (c.400).
As far as I am concerned, that totally destroys preterism.



My suggestion, inhimitrust, is that since you are a relatively new Christian of one year, that you retain a learning frame of mind, and don't too quickly get dogmatic about an endtime view. My guess is that you read a preterist site or work, and it sounded good...and so you believe it. But under close exam, it just doesn't hold. It didn't in my opinion.

Well, the main thing I see in it is the 2 beasts represent 2 nations. 12 tribes are mentioned. God prophecied destrution on Jerusalem thru all the prophets, especially the House of Judah, the priests and rulers of Jerusalem.
So taking this in context , the 2 nations of the 2 beasts would be the House of Israel and the House of Judah(which spoke as a "lamb"). The fall of "babylon" is a "jewish city" being destroyed, no doubt about it and I saw that a long time ago.
God said I will make the 2 nations one, under one King.
I myself believe He did that with the destruction of Jerusalem, so I don't have to try and figure out what countries, kings, rulers, antichrists etc will come from in the future. There are enough of those sites around with 100's of ideas on scenarios. I didn't get this from other sites, as no one sees it the way I do, but I do and am happy in it. I devote my time to bible study, not sites, using different translations and lexicons, and I do this on my own.
My family and loved ones are comforted with this belief and actually makes the bible more believable for us, as it showed God did keep His promises to His people thru Jesus Christ. Now I just try to bring others to Christ and keep them strong in their faith, knowing we will be resurrected and live eternally with our Lord in heaven when we die.
Anyway, I do appreciate your feedback, even if we differ.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Well, the main thing I see in it is the 2 beasts represent 2 nations. 12 tribes are mentioned. God prophecied destrution on Jerusalem thru all the prophets, especially the House of Judah, the priests and rulers of Jerusalem.
So taking this in context , the 2 nations of the 2 beasts would be the House of Israel and the House of Judah(which spoke as a "lamb"). The fall of "babylon" is a "jewish city" being destroyed, no doubt about it and I saw that a long time ago.

However, you aren't taking it in context or in regards to all that the Bible says about the Second Coming. Have you studied Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Zephaniah, Joel and Zecharah in depth? when I mean in depth, I really mean in depth. For instance, when my study group took on Hebrews - it took 30 weeks with homework every day.

The number of the beast is the the number of a man. He is discussed in Daniel. He is mentioned in Genesis 3:15 - the seed of the serpent.

The 12 tribes are mentioned in a favorable light. There are 12,000 from each tribe who are 'firstfruits'. And Babylon is not Jerusalem, but an ungodly earthly kingdom/religion.

The problem of preterism is that God, who is omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning, made everlasting covenants and promises involving the 12 tribes. We cannot just thrwo those away, or claim the church took all the promises (without the curses, of course).

Please keep your mind open to what the Spirit says.

 

[inhimitrust]

However, you aren't taking it in context or in regards to all that the Bible says about the Second Coming. Have you studied Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Zephaniah, Joel and Zecharah in depth? when I mean in depth, I really mean in depth. For instance, when my study group took on Hebrews - it took 30 weeks with homework every day.

The number of the beast is the the number of a man. He is discussed in Daniel. He is mentioned in Genesis 3:15 - the seed of the serpent.

The 12 tribes are mentioned in a favorable light. There are 12,000 from each tribe who are 'firstfruits'. And Babylon is not Jerusalem, but an ungodly earthly kingdom/religion.

The problem of preterism is that God, who is omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning, made everlasting covenants and promises involving the 12 tribes. We cannot just thrwo those away, or claim the church took all the promises (without the curses, of course).

Please keep your mind open to what the Spirit says.

I am glad I never heard of dispensationlism when I first read the bible.
The 12 tribes were hebrews born of 4 different women thru righteous Jacob(remember, Esau was from the exact same spiritual "seed"). But Solomon was a bad boy and God divided them up into 2 seperate nations. The jews were of the House of Judah only and were in charge of the temple in Jerusalem and the ones Christ and God were condeming. God did make an everlasting convenant, with us thru Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the elect of those that believe unto Christ. God's chosen are those that come to His Son thru the grace of God(unless you think unbelievers are going to be given a second chance. How long do you think the earth will last after a "rapture" of all believers? I would give it about 2 weeks at the most. I would like to know where a rapture came from out of the bible, because I honest to God, never saw it when I read it.
As far as babylon an ungodly earthly kingdom, I agree with that, and that is exactly the way God thru the prophets and even Jesus Christ described Jerusalem, which was both Christ's and Paul's enemy. What temple is being measured in chapt 11 for the gentiles to trample on? and is it in physical babylon? or spiritual "babylon". Here is just one example of many of God's comdemnation:
Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah: ....according this this, God himself called them these pagan names, no?

Now look at the oracle against "Tyre"("rock") and "Egypt"("double staits"). Guess who God was talking about. Look at just about every prophecy in the prophets on who God was condemning including Christ and Paul.
Look at Daniel 3 on what the number 666 means, again it points to "babylon". Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king(of Babylon) made an image of gold(600?), whose height was threescore cubits(60), and the breadth there of 6cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.

This is how long it took to clean up Jerusalem and throw the refuse in the valley of "Gehanna".
EZEKIEL 39:12 "For seven months(this is how long it took to "clean up" Jerusalem after the destruction!!) the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Even all the people of the land will bury them; and it will be to their renown on the day that I glorify Myself," declares the Lord GOD.

Jerusalem is called a harlot here:
Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.

This is why God destroyed Jerusalem and Christ became one King over one nation, Us.
Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

I could go on and on quoting half the bible on revelation being fulfilled. So you see, I do have an open mind and I do read and study my bible, every single day, thru prayer and asking God for wisdom and knowledge when I am reading. Please don't condemn others if God just happens to reveal things to someone, and reading the bible as fulfilled brings me more joy and peace than I have ever had before and more is revealed to me each time. I will never undertand it all in my lifetime, but it is the only book on this Earth I read, honestly. Peace and grace to you.

 

[inhimitrust]

However, you aren't taking it in context or in regards to all that the Bible says about the Second Coming. Have you studied Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Zephaniah, Joel and Zecharah in depth? when I mean in depth, I really mean in depth. For instance, when my study group took on Hebrews - it took 30 weeks with homework every day.

The number of the beast is the the number of a man. He is discussed in Daniel. He is mentioned in Genesis 3:15 - the seed of the serpent.

The 12 tribes are mentioned in a favorable light. There are 12,000 from each tribe who are 'firstfruits'. And Babylon is not Jerusalem, but an ungodly earthly kingdom/religion.

The problem of preterism is that God, who is omniscient, knowing the end from the beginning, made everlasting covenants and promises involving the 12 tribes. We cannot just thrwo those away, or claim the church took all the promises (without the curses, of course).

Please keep your mind open to what the Spirit says.

I would be glad to study with you sometime and we can share with each other our insights on the bible.
My whole life is dedicated to God and His Son Jesus, and I thank Them both everyday for coming into my life and pulling me out of the deep dark pit I sank into last year. I feel like I am in a beautifull dream and my whole life has changed and getting better each day. I love bible study and would be glad to converse thru email if you like, as a forum can make it too impersonal and things can get taken out of context. I already said I was going to leave this prophecy forum, and may go spend time on other ones, more for spirituality and fellowship than anything else.
I hope I didn't offend you, but my love and conviction for the Lord is stronger than I can put in words. You are a fellow brother in the Lord and will treat you as one, with love, compassion and understanding. God bless you and goodbye.