Disobedience has consequences.

[LostMarbels]

You mean like implying that other Christians aren't really Christians because they don't believe as you do?

No. Not "others". I do not have some super insight or claim to be a better Christian.

 

[LostMarbels]

The Bible doesn't say, "Not all Christians have a true relationship with, or understanding of God." You said, "Not my words." and "It's in the Bible."

Except that's not in the Bible. In fact, "Christian" is only used a couple of times in the entire NT. And not once by Jesus that I'm aware of. That verse you quoted, taken in context, would have been uttered BEFORE the term "Christian" was ever used one time to describe anyone. I don't see where "Christian" is defined in the entire standard Protestant set of scriptures. The history of the term as we know it, started in Antioch. So even if you want to use circular referencing, your own statement doesn't seem to be substantiated by the scriptures.

Semantics. This is also why I term myself as a non-denominational follower of Jesus, but most people do not understand that. So it's easier to be identified as Christian.

 

[LostMarbels]

What?!? I've never heard that one before. That's an amazing limitation on God's power.



That's a convenient excuse. It doesn't explain why an omniscient God would do that.



Why not simply keep that authority?



What an amazingly limited God you have. However, nothing stopped God from flooding the world. I don't think that your theology holds water, so to speak.


eudaimonia,

Mark

If you're going to quote other websites verbatim, you may want to provide a link:

http://www.wikihow.com/Deal-with-Religious-People-if-You-Are-an-Atheist


Something you may want to familiarize yourself with, are the following concepts. They may give insight into your own statements, as well as those of others:

ad hominen
Straw man argument
Argument from Ignorance
Circular reasoning
Moving the Goalposts
Tu Quoque
Begging the Question
Falsifiability
Scientific evidence
Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws (pay special attention to the 3rd one)
psychological projection
apophenia

It's a start.

Personally, I'm not much for "debating", and I typically do not set out to dress someone down. So keep in mind that some of us learn these ways, genuinely.

Lets read all that was presented here and read some responses to me. Se the pattern?

 

[LostMarbels]

I did a facepalm when I saw this. It is not a race to win, and you have invested into it more than you need to. Have a coffee man, chill out a bit, and bring back that pleasant patient stuff you had yesterday and the day before. That was nice!

I hear ya. I did not mean that aggressively tho. In-order to miss direct we are sometime asked to explain the bible by non-bibical means, to do so is impossible.

 

[oi_antz]

I hear ya. I did not mean that aggressively tho. In-order to miss direct we are sometime asked to explain the bible by non-bibical means, to do so is impossible.

But you neither accepted it was a No True Scotsman fallacy nor defended that it wasn't. Instead you just quipped and gave up. There is no point in doing that, he was making a valid point and it deserved to be recognised and responded to. I assessed why you would respond that way, I can just see that you are somehow invested into it when you should just chill out, have a coffee, think about it and come back with patience and be pleasant. I would rather have seen you do that, and that would have actually been valuable. But what you said is not valuable, and it only causes others to lose confidence in you.

 

[Colter]

Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

That, is God's definition of religion. Why do you think God, as Jesus Christ came against the religious people of his time?

Jesus revealed his advanced religion in the gospel as contrasted with the mostly evolutionary religion of Judaism. It was the closed mindedness of the religions of authority that came against Jesus, he didn't come against them. But it's to much to eliminate the term religion.

 

[oi_antz]

He can't do anything on earth unless His people pray.

Can you please explain why you have said this?

 

[Messy]

What?!? I've never heard that one before. That's an amazing limitation on God's power.

That's a convenient excuse. It doesn't explain why an omniscient God would do that.

Why not simply keep that authority?

What an amazingly limited God you have. However, nothing stopped God from flooding the world. I don't think that your theology holds water, so to speak.

eudaimonia,

Mark

No I said He can stop all evil now, like He did with the flood.
Jesus gave the church authority over the devil.
He wants to cooperate with us.
Why did He give the authority to Adam? Don't know, but the Bible says He did.

 

[oi_antz]

Why did He give the authority to Adam? Don't know, but the Bible says He did.

I suspect He wanted Adam to tend the garden "fill the earth and subdue it" - but as a species, we don't really set about to subdue the earth and to be the gardener, rather to exploit it.

 

[Messy]

Can you please explain why you have said this?

Because I'm taught this.

God wants to give you many things, but He will not give them until you pray. By prayer you're actually opening the door to let God do the things He wants to do. I believe we have seen only a small fraction of what God has wanted to do - because of our lack of prayer -- Chuck Smith, "Effective Prayer Life"

God has ordained that His work on earth be wrought through prayer and by our agreeing together in prayer -- Chuck Smith, "Effective Prayer Life"

 

[oi_antz]

Because I'm taught this.

God wants to give you many things, but He will not give them until you pray. By prayer you're actually opening the door to let God do the things He wants to do. I believe we have seen only a small fraction of what God has wanted to do - because of our lack of prayer -- Chuck Smith, "Effective Prayer Life"

God has ordained that His work on earth be wrought through prayer and by our agreeing together in prayer -- Chuck Smith, "Effective Prayer Life"

Ezekiel 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.

Do you think it is consistent with the faith of the authors of scripture, that God is unable to do anything on Earth if His people do not pray? I remember He appeared to Moses as a burning bush, and sent plagues on Egypt to release Israel, but He did not appear to do that as a result of prayer. I just wonder if this is a misplaced comment, or a false teaching. I now there is heaps of false teaching in Evangelical Christianity, as I am beginning to scratch the surface of it. I don't mean to offend you by saying you have believed a false idea, I just want the facts to be established right for the sake of those who it might be a stumbling block.

 

[Messy]

Do you think it is consistent with the faith of the authors of scripture, that God is unable to do anything on Earth if His people do not pray? I remember He appeared to Moses as a burning bush, and sent plagues on Egypt to release Israel, but He did not appear to do that as a result of prayer. I just wonder if this is a misplaced comment, or a false teaching. I now there is heaps of false teaching in Evangelical Christianity, as I am beginning to scratch the surface of it. I don't mean to offend you by saying you have believed a false idea, I just want the facts to be established right for the sake of those who it might be a stumbling block.

They called out to Him, all Israel and then He sent Moses to deliver them.

I can't remember who said that anymore.

That man from Wales prayed 6 hours a day or more and almost all Wales got saved.

2 Chronicles 7, He can do things without prayer like shut up the heaven, I think this text is very clear, 'He can do nothing unless His people pray' is not true, but in order to restore we need to pray:

13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, 14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

As I understand the story, that is what He did.

No, as the story goes, the descendants of Adam and Eve (you know... us) were and are inclined to cause suffering to each other. If the Christian god wanted to, we would all have the free will to cause suffering, but would not do so.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No. Not "others". I do not have some super insight or claim to be a better Christian.

After being confronted with the fact that there are Christians who believe Christianity is a religion you posted the verses from Matthew describing people who profess to be Christians but aren't, and then adding your own statement:

"Not all Christians have a true relationship with, or understanding of God."

That's a pretty clear implication about how you feel about Christians that disagree with your stance on the issue. I know a few Christians that would be quite upset if they read that post from you. But perhaps you just misspoke...

in any event, it seems to me that you must be trying to alienate yourself from both believers and non-believers alike.

 

[oi_antz]

No, as the story goes, the descendants of Adam and Eve (you know... us) were and are inclined to cause suffering to each other. If the Christian god wanted to, we would all have the free will to cause suffering, but would not do so.

Can you please quote that bit, it doesn't come to mind what you are referring to.

 

[oi_antz]

They called out to Him, all Israel and then He sent Moses to deliver them.

I can't remember who said that anymore.

That man from Wales prayed 6 hours a day or more and almost all Wales got saved.

2 Chronicles 7, He can do things without prayer like shut up the heaven, I think this text is very clear, 'He can do nothing unless His people pray' is not true, but in order to restore we need to pray:

13 When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, 14 if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.15 Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place.

Thanks. I don't doubt that prayer enables Him to work in the lives of those who pray, or that praying is pointless because I have seen His action in my life when others have prayed. But I think your statement suggests that He has no power without prayer probably is misleading. It would be good information for me to know where the statement originated of Israel calling on Him for Moses. Maybe it is in the bible and I haven't noticed it. Don't go looking for it but please remember to let me know if you do happen to see it.

 

[Messy]

Thanks. I don't doubt that prayer enables Him to work in the lives of those who pray, or that praying is pointless because I have seen His action in my life when others have prayed. But I think your statement suggests that He has no power without prayer probably is misleading. It would be good information for me to know where the statement originated of Israel calling on Him for Moses. Maybe it is in the bible and I haven't noticed it. Don't go looking for it but please remember to let me know if you do happen to see it.

Exodus 2
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage.24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

 

[oi_antz]

Exodus 2
23 Now it happened in the process of time that the king of Egypt died. Then the children of Israel groaned because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage.24 So God heard their groaning, and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. 25 And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them.

What significance do you draw from this, especially the question of why He did not act before they prayed and why He did act in response to their prayer? Do you think their prayer gave Him power or do you think it gave them faith in His power?

 

[Messy]

What significance do you draw from this, especially the question of why He did not act before they prayed and why He did act in response to their prayer? Do you think their prayer gave Him power or do you think it gave them faith in His power?

I think He just needs to be asked in order to do something. Not that He is powerless and needs us to give Him power, He gave us power, but He needs a legal invitation to work here.
Like He doesn't save you unless you pray and ask Him to forgive you and invite Him in, I think that works the same with other things.
Ask and it shall be given, we need to ask.

 

[oi_antz]

I think He just needs to be asked in order to do something. Not that He is powerless and needs us to give Him power, He gave us power, but He needs a legal invitation to work here.
Like He doesn't save you unless you pray and ask Him to forgive you and invite Him in, I think that works the same with other things.
Ask and it shall be given, we need to ask.

I don't think this is necessarily true either. He seems to have decided to flood the world without being asked to:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6:5-7&version=NLT

The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart.7 And the Lordsaid, “I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing—all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them.”