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Disobedience has consequences.

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LostMarbels

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I wasn't going off the notion that God is unapproachable ... it seems to me you are going off the notion that others who look to the one making the claim to provide evidence have themselves not done any "approaching". Let me explain: in my example with the Chupacabra I included different people who concluded different things based on different results. Some went looking and found something, some found nothing, etc. Lots of people who went looking came to various conclusions.

I've known some who "approached" for decades, and have said they found nothing close to what anyone claimed, or even what they had hoped to find themselves. Some who sought in earnest, giving over portions of their life to the "approach", some still have said they did not find anything.

And yet still ... I have known such people who did not close off the possibility entirely. Rather, they simply exhausted what they knew to do, thought they were supposed to do, etc. And eventually decided to try a different approach, to try and weed out conflicting claims, dashed hopes and expectations, the myriad of assertions and speculations and tail chasing, and instead they started looking at what the evidence we do have may suggest and say, and those who could actually provide a claim and support their claim with practical application, evidence, demonstration, etc. Thus, the "burden of proof" helps to cut through the nonsense and the talking heads. If I'm earnestly looking for something, for example, and I have 300 people all pointing their fingers in certain directions, the one I am more likely to follow is the one who can support their finger pointing with some type of evidence. Otherwise, what is to differentiate them from all the other voices claiming things with words ? As I said, it seems as though you are assuming that a person who places the burden of proof on the one making the claim "Isn't trying," and that is assuming an awful lot. Deffering (sp) to the burden of proof can be the RESULT of earnest efforts and trying, because when you step into the "Okay, I'm going to find out who God is," arena, what you find are millions of conflicting accounts and speculations. One way to "get to the point" is to ask, "Can anyone demonstrate what they're claiming or show evidence or proof ?" and furthermore ... to have it actually apply to reality in a practical way ? Otherwise, talk can be cheap. Even if the person talking is 100% accurate, talk can be cheap. I may have a million dollars back home, but if we need 10$ right now and neither of us have it, what good does that do us in the moment ? If someone comes along and says, "Well I got a 20$ right here, is that cool ?" ... guess who is being practical and helpful and letting us get from point A to point B.

The burden of proof being on the one making the claim is arguably a way that helps to facilitate the discovery and understanding of truth for a group, rather than just the individual who "believes". We exist as a group, not just individuals on our own islands. Thus it's helpful to have understanding and truth that we can practically recognize and apply for each other. The burden of proof can help to facilitate this as well as breed an environment for trust and integrity amongst those who want to know what may or may not actually be true and useful in reality.
No, I'm not stating that people aren't looking. I'm stating that some people look for God to conform to their own beliefs, and that when God's system conflicts their own they reject it because it isn't what they want. I am also stating that the burden of prof lies with God since he is the creator. Ultimately it is God's onus to prove his own validity.
 
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SkyWriting

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I can't imagine anyone would do that. Why?

Let's say your kid goes off to college and starts working for a drug lord who is distributing heroin to the other kids. Do you continue to pay for college and send cookies in the mail every few months, or do you cut your kid off from the benefits of the family income?
 
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Skavau

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Let's say your kid goes off to college and starts working for a drug lord who is distributing heroin to the other kids. Do you continue to pay for college and send cookies in the mail every few months?
No, but I don't torture them for it.

I'm not sure how this relates to someone who would worship a God they know to be untrue.
 
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SkyWriting

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No, but I don't torture them for it.

The word used is "torment" as in "anguish". It's not an external thing.
If it was external, it would be much less painful.
 
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Skavau

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The word used is "torment" as in "anguish". It's not an external thing.
If it was external, it would be much less painful.
Why does God allow those who don't believe in him or believe in and follow truthfully or untruthfully in another God to suffer eternal torment?

What's the point?
 
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GrimKingGrim

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No, I'm not stating that people aren't looking. I'm stating that some people look for God to conform to their own beliefs, and that when God's system conflicts their own they reject it because it isn't what they want. I am also stating that the burden of prof lies with God since he is the creator. Ultimately it is God's onus to prove his own validity.

I really find it hard to believe you can't understand what he's saying. Also finding it hard to believe that you want people to warp their own beliefs in order to find God. I'm ALSO finding it hard to believe that you are making a claim and you're claim the burden of proof lies on the claim itself rather than you.
 
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Messy

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I do not see how it is just an opinion. If someone supported the overthrow of democracy in favour of fascism and I told them they were in favour of authoritarian government would that just be "my opinion"?
God has Theocracy. With democracy there is no free speech for murderers and such. His standards are higher. He wants everything to be perfect, no evil so noone gets hurt by that. Thorben Sondergaard saw how God saw sin. He saw kids fighting a bit and he thought oh well no big deal but then he saw they were bullying his daughter. That hurt him. He said: That's how God sees sin. We're so used to it, we call it mistakes or something. Just one sin from Adam, what did he do? He only disobeyed and wanted free thought, to decide what was good and evil himself. Now everyone complains that God lets innocent people suffer and He does nothing. He doesn't want the same thing to happen in heaven that happened here on earth. It goes from one sin that we might not even see as sin, just free thought, to all sin and murder you see on earth now.
 
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Skavau

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God has Theocracy. With democracy there is no free speech for murderers and such. His standards are higher.
I don't see restricting free speech as a higher standard.

He wants everything to be perfect, no evil so noone gets hurt by that. Thorben Sondergaard saw how God saw sin. He saw kids fighting a bit and he thought oh well no big deal but then he saw they were bullying his daughter. That hurt him. He said: That's how God sees sin. We're so used to it, we call it mistakes or something. Just one sin from Adam, what did he do? He only disobeyed and wanted free thought, to decide what was good and evil himself. Now everyone complains that God lets innocent people suffer and He does nothing. He doesn't want the same thing to happen in heaven that happened here on earth. It goes from one sin that we might not even see as sin, just free thought, to all sin and murder you see on earth now.
I don't see how this justifies God punishing people for what they think.
 
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LostMarbels

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I do not see how it is just an opinion. If someone supported the overthrow of democracy in favour of fascism and I told them they were in favour of authoritarian government would that just be "my opinion"?
God is not a regime or a government.
I support God and his ideals. Those are concrete.

What you do in life is your choice.
 
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LostMarbels

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I do not see how it is just an opinion. If someone supported the overthrow of democracy in favour of fascism and I told them they were in favour of authoritarian government would that just be "my opinion"?
Because your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with God. It is formed out of misunderstanding as you perceive it.
 
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LostMarbels

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I really find it hard to believe you can't understand what he's saying. Also finding it hard to believe that you want people to warp their own beliefs in order to find God. I'm ALSO finding it hard to believe that you are making a claim and you're claim the burden of proof lies on the claim itself rather than you.
I have already told you. OUR (as in both of us) belief does not matter. God alone is sovereign, and it simply doesn't matter if God does not conform to our beliefs.

The other thing is in you treating this as if I came up with the notion of God. Like I somehow made up this stupid story and now I need to defend it. God, as in Jesus Christ makes the claim to be God. I did not claim that for him, I confess it as true. You need to confront Jesus himself if you wish to confront his claim. The burden of prof lies with the originator of my belief. The Lord Jesus the Christ.
 
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Messy

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I don't see restricting free speech as a higher standard.


I don't see how this justifies God punishing people for what they think.
Oh okay well I don't believe He punishes people for what they think but for what they do.
 
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LostMarbels

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I don't see restricting free speech as a higher standard.

Right now.... say God is a fool to yourself out-loud while your reading this. Did some mystical hand come down form the heavens and restrict your speech?


I don't see how this justifies God punishing people for what they think.

So... let me get this straight. Because you personally do not understand, something can be claimed false?
 
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Skavau

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Right now.... say God is a fool to yourself out-loud while your reading this. Did some mystical hand come down form the heavens and restrict your speech?




So... let me get this straight. Because you personally do not understand, something can be claimed false?
I await an argument for why it is just to punish me for what I think.
 
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TillICollapse

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No, I'm not stating that people aren't looking. I'm stating that some people look for God to conform to their own beliefs, and that when God's system conflicts their own they reject it because it isn't what they want. I am also stating that the burden of prof lies with God since he is the creator. Ultimately it is God's onus to prove his own validity.
Do you believe the burden of proof lies with God to support your claims ?
 
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LostMarbels

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I await an argument for why it is just to punish me for what I think.
There is no argument. God is sovereign. His will, will be done.

I have gone back threw the post and haven't found where anyone brought up being punished for your thoughts other than yourself. Is that you perception?
 
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Skavau

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There is no argument. God is sovereign. His will, will be done.

I have gone back threw the post and haven't found where anyone brought up being punished for your thoughts other than yourself. Is that you perception?
You believe that I will be punished for not believing in God. Non-belief in God is a thought.
 
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