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Disobedience has consequences.

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Could you be specific on how the sermon differs?
http://biblehub.com/matthew/5.htm

What Jesus is saying is that simply becoming a believer/followers [the sheep] does not necessarily grant you salvation.Nor does not being a believer/ follower [a goat] exclude you from salvation.We will all be judged on how we live our lives regardless.
Some organised Christian groups understand this sermon [the liberal Quakers for example] but most do not.
Jesus may have contradicted or been unclear on this earlier but this was his last judgement on the matter so the most important.
The evangelicals are well intentioned but are also wrong.
 
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Colter

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The creation story was written by the ancestors of the same elite church government who lied about Jesus at his trumped-up trial and then killed him. Why wouldn't you trust them?

"We are church government and we are here to help.....and we are infallible.......and our councils...and our writings, if you don't believe our writings something is wrong with you.
 
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LostMarbels

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You missed the point. It's not even about God, it's about unverifiable claims and who the burden of proof lies on. You can certainly say Santa isn't real but can you prove it?



And the burden of proof lies on you to convince a non-christian of that
If you would stop trying to prove a point, you might be able to see this "unverifiable" evidence. The whole problem here is you have to actually do action to find this prof. Research, study, observance. You cant just pop on a forum and demand it. The other thing is your going about it the wrong way. Quite simply, your asking individuals that know about this field of study and are telling them their wrong. If all you have is an ascertain that God is not real, than all you have is you have is your own personal opinion, based on your own personal experience. There is evidence, but you have to personally look for it. That being said, it is safe to say that these truths are only reviled to those who want to find them. To think you have to somehow accept Jesus Christ in-order to get prof of him is ridiculous. How would any one that ever doubted and got saved, be saved if the unbeliever could not find truth? You would first have to be willing to find the truth. Then you have to seek it.
 
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LostMarbels

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What if I told you an Atheist's idea of proving God exists is subjective?

When something is subjective, it is considered a matter of personal opinion. Truth is considered to be independent of personal opinion. That is to say, personal opinion cannot change the truth. Any position that is held that is not unchangeable, immutable, or eternal is opinion; it is not truth.

When someone says, “prove to me that Christianity is true.” They are not asking you proclaim, “In my opinion, Christianity is true.” Instead, they are asking you to prove to them that Christianity is true despite their opinion that Christianity isn’t true. The problem is, the atheist’s burden of proof is an opinion, and one should not test truths using opinions because truths are always true independently of individual opinion or personal conviction.

Now that a description of truth has been given, we should look at the implications of the following statement: “Christianity is true.” When we say Christianity is true, we mean that it is absolutely true. This, of course, means that Christianity is true independently of any individual’s opinion. This, of course, can be said of any true proposition.

When the atheists say, “prove to me that God exists” or “prove to me that Christianity is true,” many of them have a different burden of proof in mind. One might ask, “If God exists, why doesn’t he heal amputees?” Another will ask, “Why is it that God won’t just come down and show himself to me?” Another may say, “If God exists, he can prove himself to me by ridding the world of evil and suffering.” Perhaps another atheist will ignorantly say, “If God exists, he would be testable by the scientific method.” Different atheists will give different levels and conditions concerning what constitutes as meeting the burden of proof.

This is, unfortunately for the atheist, where their request to prove that Christianity is true falls apart. Truth is immutable, unchangeable, and absolute, but the burden of proof that each atheist says they require is completely subjective and nothing more than personal opinion. If we are to be justified in believing in any proposition, we must have a concrete way to test the truth of propositions. A subjective standard will not do. If the burden of proof for any truth is subjective, then anyone can be justified in believing in any proposition, including Christianity, as long as the burden of proof has been met for that individual. If the burden of proof is subjective, then a universal truth cannot be considered universal, rather, all “truths” are a matter of personal opinion.

If the atheist is to hold that we ought to test the truth of propositions in a subjective manner, then no proposition is ultimately provable. The epistemological implications on the atheist worldview is devastating. The obligation that the atheist sets forth for us to meet their own subjective burden of proof destroys their own epistemology. If their epistemology falls, then so too does their objection concerning their burden of proof not being met for Christianity. After all, if no proposition is provable beyond opinion, then all known propositions are opinions. If all propositions are opinions, then the only consistent conclusion concerning epistemology is that no one can know anything at all, thus, such a way of testing propositions leads to skepticism.

Any Christian that has had a discussion with an unbeliever concerning the truth of Christianity has probably been told that it is the Christian’s task to prove the truth of Christianity to an unbeliever. The atheists’ ideas concerning how Christianity might be validated or invalidated are utter nonsense.

First, setting out a Biblical foundation will be appropriate. 1 Peter 3:15 is often quoted, “but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,”[acp footnote]1[/acp] Christians are to give a defense of their faith, but they are not obligated to prove to someone else that Christianity is true. Too often, Christians allow atheists to set the parameters concerning what the Christian’s task is in an apologetic situation. We should not base our apologetic on the atheist’s demands, rather, we should focus on the task that God has given us. We are to set scripture as our authority, and give a defense that is consistent with the scriptures.

We are also obligated to show the absurdity of any worldview that is to stand in opposition to God’s authority. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 says, “For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.” From these verses we have our justification of using logical arguments that show the absurdity of any worldview that stands in opposition to God’s authority.

None of the aforementioned verses, nor any other verses in The Bible, say that the Christian’s task is to convince or prove to someone that Christianity is true. In fact, The Bible clearly teaches that people only come to belief by the power of God himself. For instance, John 6:44 says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” Matthew 16:17 also says, And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” There are numerous verses in scripture that teach that God is the one who causes belief in an individual but these two examples will suffice. If it is true that God directly causes belief, then it is not the Christian’s job to attempt to cause belief in Christianity within an unbelieving individual. Instead, our job is to proclaim the truth of Christianity and destroy any worldview that dares to raise its hand against God’s authority. The idea that we have to prove Christianity to an unbeliever assumes a false theology that is not found within scripture. It is God who has given us our task to proclaim the truth of the Gospel, we ought to follow the criteria that God has set forth instead of the criteria given by the unbeliever.

Site: The bible truth,
 
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GrimKingGrim

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Your analogy assumes that you don't have wings and that you are making a false claim. This makes it a strawman.

It wasn't about the claim being false, hello? It was about who has to prove if the claim is false. It's no straw man because it sets up no argument to attack. It's a solid logical argument. If I say I have wings, you're under no contract to prove me wrong because I'm the one who made the claim and clearly you don't believe my claim. So until I prove my claim true, you can withhold belief or call my claim false because I haven't proven it to you.

But my question was actually that LostMarbels has said he believes Jesus is God's Word, and acknowledges Him as his worthy King. You have said that LostMarbels has some burden of proof to convince a non-Christian of that. I said that I don't think LostMarbels has any burden of proof for such a thing, as he is allowed to believe what he wants and doesn't need to convince anyone else to agree. I just wonder why you think he is obligated to convince you. Can you please explain that?

Right. He made a claim. His claim is "Jesus is God's Word, and acknowledges Him as his worthy King" and most Christians believe that, but it's still a claim that he has the burden of proving to non Christians because they don't automatically accept that claim. He claimed it publicly to others on this thread and because I challenged the claim he now has burden to prove it.
 
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LostMarbels

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It confuzzles me that this circle just keeps going. I'm dizzy and underrested. I'm now gonna discontinue.
That is fine..... See you in the next one. Hope you see how the burden of prof is not my own now. Latters.

(Jas 4:7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
 
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TillICollapse

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That is fine..... See you in the next one. Hope you see how the burden of prof is not my own now. Latters.
Let's say you want to find out if a Chupacabra is real. So, you go out to where they have supposedly been spotted, looking for one.

While out looking for one, you hear all manner of accounts. Some claim the creature is 6 feet tall, glowing red eyes, walks on two legs, can fly. Others say it's a small rat like looking creature, hairless, etc. Some claim to know it's nothing more than a coyote with mange, or a raccoon with mange. Others claim it's a government tested animal escaped from some lab. Still others claim it's a supernatural interdimensional being, or perhaps an extraterrestrial.

You look at video footage some have gotten, you manage to find some fresh animal carrion that is attributed to a Chupacabra, you hear accounts, so on and so forth. And let's say you even see a creature one day run across a rural road, that you cannot identify, although it doesn't defy the animal kingdom as you know it (IOW it's not a 7 foot tall, glowing red eyes man-goat with wings) rather let's say it just doesn't look quite like anything you've seen before ... say a cross between a hairless hyena and a small kangaroo or something ... and the first time you see it you think, "Holy wow, is that a Chupacabra ?"

So now you have evidence of something ... dead animals, video, eye witnesses, and you/yourself saw something as well that was hard to identify.

After looking at it all ... can you now say definitively what a Chupacabra is or isn't ? If you decide to go with "coyote with mange" which is a popular theory and seemingly backed by lots of evidence, how can you disprove that there isn't a 7 foot tall bipedal goat sucking bat-humanoid with wings and glowing red eyes killing livestock ? How can you prove that there isn't a supernatural being involved in some of the other cases ? Or even more mundanely but still unique, what if there are multiple normal animals (coyotes, raccoons, wolverines, etc) running around with mange and it's an odd coincidence that these different animals have mange and are being sighted at the same time ?

What helps someone back up their assertions, are evidence. Eye-witness accounts are generally very unreliable, which is why corroborating evidence helps to determine the facts of what was seen and not seen. Even an eye-witness who saw an actual something may get details wrong, or think something is happening that isn't even happening or take place. Now, if a person were interested to the degree they wanted to investigate someone's account and claim ... okay. And what you are basically pointing out, is that, "If you really wanted to know this, you would investigate. It's not up to me to prove what I'm saying is true, it's up to you to find out if what I'm saying is true for yourself."

But consider the Chupacabra example ... even someone who is investigating such accounts will run into a plethora of different claims, explanations, theories, etc. What happens when the evidence they find points to your own claims being wrong ? What if they find a much more mundane explanation ? What if they find nothing at all ? Or what if they conclude something spectacular that even seems more extraordinary then your own claim ? In general, if you want your claim to be taken seriously, there should be evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you are often just one of many voices saying, "I know the truth !" with little more than words for all we know.

Now consider one more thing: suppose you actually did see, 100%, something extraordinary. Let's say you saw a 7 foot tall flying humanoid with glowing red eyes sucking blood out of a goat, then it takes off into the night and disappears in a puff of flame or some such. And let's say this ACTUALLY happened. But you have no video evidence of it, nothing to corroborate your story. Let's say for a moment that the carcass even went up in a puff of smoke, leaving no trace behind.

Even if this happened in reality, how would you convince someone else ? And for what practical reason would it matter to them ? Let's say they even went looking for it, based on your account and nothing more than your word ... but found nothing, saw nothing, etc. At what point for practical purposes, would such a person be able to say, "Well, I can't prove you wrong, but you've got nothing to show for your story, I found nothing when I investigated, so even if you're right it's basically meaningless to me because recognizing whether you're right or wrong is irrelevant to my own experience." Burden of proof is more than just intellectual honesty, or one person thinking the other is lazy ... there are often a sea of claims and explanations and speculations for the same thing, which people often DO investigate and do not find what is claimed to be found, and at some point draw different conclusions than what you may have drawn. Or, they have decided to stop trying to figure something out, and wait and see if anyone who is making claims can back up their claim with evidence. This isn't always due to "I don't care anymore,", rather this can often just cut through the myriad of voices and begin to see who may actually have something substantial to offer.
 
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LostMarbels

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Let's say you want to find out if a Chupacabra is real. So, you go out to where they have supposedly been spotted, looking for one.........
I honestly like this response and thank you for the time it took to write it. It is well written and quite elegantly stated. :)

One sec... time to get some Dubstep going......

Ok, While your point is elegantly made in you post your still going on the notion that God is unapproachable. God is not some mythical beast that needs to be caught or captured to prove his existence. He is sitting on the edge of his chair waiting for you to honestly ask him. The only difficult part of finding God, is taking the step, of taking a notion of Jesus serious enough to ask him. That's it. All you need is enough desire to take Jesus serious enough to approach him.
 
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LostMarbels

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And I love this.......

This isn't always due to "I don't care anymore,", rather this can often just cut through the myriad of voices and begin to see who may actually have something substantial to offer.

This is God's point exactly! Instead of listening to "the myriad of voices", God requires you to come directly to him for any information about him. God gives you the evidence. God reveals truth about himself. And only God will, and can convince you of his validity.
 
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Skavau

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What I am driving at is why this is wrong. Surely that if someone is likely to harm others, then the freedom of information that will enable them to make weapons should be restricted.
Freedom of assembling deadly weaponry casually is not the same as restricting one's speech, association or movement. It is also not the same as punishing someone for what they think.

This is not comparable to what you think God will do.

Yet the same information could be accessed safely by someone who for instance needs to make explosives for construction. The point being, is an authoritative government capable of having your support, if we assume the government is perfect (which we should suppose is not possible in any government that a human is in charge of).
Not at the price of my personal liberty, no. Some things are more important than GDP per capita.
 
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Skavau

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That is your opinion. Why can you not see that? I just don't agree with you. But I completely believe this is your live to live as you so chose.
You're against me having free speech after I die.

Being Christian wont save you either. You have to accept Jesus Christ, not the religion. I'm not being difficult here either for the sake of argument. The bible clearly states allot of churchy people will go to hell because they only practiced religion, and did not accept Jesus.

But yes, I find God just. If you do not accept him hell is waiting.
So you concede the point: You're not in favour of free speech. You believe it just for God to torture me for what I think.
 
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SkyWriting

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What Jesus is saying is that simply becoming a believer/followers [the sheep] does not necessarily grant you salvation.Nor does not being a believer/ follower [a goat] exclude you from salvation.We will all be judged on how we live our lives regardless. Some organised Christian groups understand this sermon [the liberal Quakers for example] but most do not. Jesus may have contradicted or been unclear on this earlier but this was his last judgement on the matter so the most important. The evangelicals are well intentioned but are also wrong.

I appreciate your attempt to be specific, but no goats or sheep are mentioned, so your point about Quakers, believers, evangelicals, and liberals is lost on me.
 
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SkyWriting

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Why?

Why should someone be punished for trusting in an untrue God?


You are correct. I misspoke. It seems to be those who have full knowledge of the one True God,
then choose to turn to other gods who get in serious trouble. The ignorant are not punished, in
general.
 
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TillICollapse

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I honestly like this response and thank you for the time it took to write it. It is well written and quite elegantly stated. :)

One sec... time to get some Dubstep going......

Ok, While your point is elegantly made in you post your still going on the notion that God is unapproachable. God is not some mythical beast that needs to be caught or captured to prove his existence. He is sitting on the edge of his chair waiting for you to honestly ask him. The only difficult part of finding God, is taking the step, of taking a notion of Jesus serious enough to ask him. That's it. All you need is enough desire to take Jesus serious enough to approach him.
I wasn't going off the notion that God is unapproachable ... it seems to me you are going off the notion that others who look to the one making the claim to provide evidence have themselves not done any "approaching". Let me explain: in my example with the Chupacabra I included different people who concluded different things based on different results. Some went looking and found something, some found nothing, etc. Lots of people who went looking came to various conclusions.

I've known some who "approached" for decades, and have said they found nothing close to what anyone claimed, or even what they had hoped to find themselves. Some who sought in earnest, giving over portions of their life to the "approach", some still have said they did not find anything.

And yet still ... I have known such people who did not close off the possibility entirely. Rather, they simply exhausted what they knew to do, thought they were supposed to do, etc. And eventually decided to try a different approach, to try and weed out conflicting claims, dashed hopes and expectations, the myriad of assertions and speculations and tail chasing, and instead they started looking at what the evidence we do have may suggest and say, and those who could actually provide a claim and support their claim with practical application, evidence, demonstration, etc. Thus, the "burden of proof" helps to cut through the nonsense and the talking heads. If I'm earnestly looking for something, for example, and I have 300 people all pointing their fingers in certain directions, the one I am more likely to follow is the one who can support their finger pointing with some type of evidence. Otherwise, what is to differentiate them from all the other voices claiming things with words ? As I said, it seems as though you are assuming that a person who places the burden of proof on the one making the claim "Isn't trying," and that is assuming an awful lot. Deffering (sp) to the burden of proof can be the RESULT of earnest efforts and trying, because when you step into the "Okay, I'm going to find out who God is," arena, what you find are millions of conflicting accounts and speculations. One way to "get to the point" is to ask, "Can anyone demonstrate what they're claiming or show evidence or proof ?" and furthermore ... to have it actually apply to reality in a practical way ? Otherwise, talk can be cheap. Even if the person talking is 100% accurate, talk can be cheap. I may have a million dollars back home, but if we need 10$ right now and neither of us have it, what good does that do us in the moment ? If someone comes along and says, "Well I got a 20$ right here, is that cool ?" ... guess who is being practical and helpful and letting us get from point A to point B.

The burden of proof being on the one making the claim is arguably a way that helps to facilitate the discovery and understanding of truth for a group, rather than just the individual who "believes". We exist as a group, not just individuals on our own islands. Thus it's helpful to have understanding and truth that we can practically recognize and apply for each other. The burden of proof can help to facilitate this as well as breed an environment for trust and integrity amongst those who want to know what may or may not actually be true and useful in reality.
 
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Skavau

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You are correct. I misspoke. It seems to be those who have full knowledge of the one True God,
then choose to turn to other gods who get in serious trouble. The ignorant are not punished, in
general.
I can't imagine anyone would do that. Why?
 
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LostMarbels

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You're against me having free speech after I die.

That is you opinion, and I am OK with that.


So you concede the point: You're not in favour of free speech. You believe it just for God to torture me for what I think.

That is you opinion, and I am OK with that. However, I concede nothing. It is your right to chose to believe what you wish, and lead your life as you so chose.

Yes, God IS just, and I condone his actions by my free will in my decision that his Word is true.

(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 
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TillICollapse

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And I love this.......

This is God's point exactly! Instead of listening to "the myriad of voices", God requires you to come directly to him for any information about him. God gives you the evidence. God reveals truth about himself. And only God will, and can convince you of his validity.
And so take a person who has looked for 30 years, trying with all they knew to "come directly to Him", etc. And they have not come upon anything they recognize as being "God" or what anyone has claimed for that matter. And now they meet you, and you are saying such things to them. Who is the one making the claims ... God, or you ?

If you say, "God" ... they have already looked, in earnest and with devotion, for 30 years. What they now have, is you and your words. God has apparently not backed up "His" words, if they were His words to begin with. What they have now, is you with your words. Can you back up your own claims ? Because unless YOU are God ... the one doing the talking and claiming is *you*. And since I'm assuming you are not God, then these are your claims. God can back up His own claims, fair enough ... but this is your mouth, your words. Can you back up your own ? And if you point to Him as being the responsible one, yet He fails to back you up ... what does that say ?

See ? The burden of proof being on the one "doing the claiming" further helps to reduce circular reasoning, false witness, etc. If God is responsible to back up His own words, then let Him speak for Himself. Why would you want to speak for God if He's not going to back up your own words ? Remember this person has been approaching for 30 years, you are not their first rodeo. Does that mean all those others before you spoke falsely on God's behalf ? Or are you actually going to blame the person for not trying hard enough perhaps ? It's their fault that God didn't back up the words spoken by others ? If I go to buy a TV, and the salesman feeds me a bunch of lines that neither he nor the store is going to make good on, but then turn around and say to me, "It's not our job to follow through on what we've claimed, it's your job to make those discounts and claims happen," that would probably cause you to walk out the door and find an honest salesman and company who will make good on their word. So on and so forth.
 
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Skavau

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That is you opinion, and I am OK with that.




That is you opinion, and I am OK with that. However, I concede nothing. It is your right to chose to believe what you wish, and lead your life as you so chose.

Yes, God IS just, and I condone his actions by my free will in my decision that his Word is true.

(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I do not see how it is just an opinion. If someone supported the overthrow of democracy in favour of fascism and I told them they were in favour of authoritarian government would that just be "my opinion"?
 
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