Disobedience has consequences.

GrimKingGrim said:

Yahweh fears death as all gods do. Death is the true unchanging. Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is just next in line as were the gods of yesteryear. His stalwarts are valiant but so were the previous ones.

But alas, we're just tomorrow's yesteryear.

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Thanks.

GrimKingGrim said:

Reason and understanding of the world around me isn't exactly something I can link to. But I'll explain it like this: the world is labeless and meaningless. If you try to apply static meaning to it that isn't "It has none" it will always strive to prove you wrong with ease.

Faith is a means to label life and try to pin it down to one meaning and a particularly disturbing one at that. And then those who seek to keep life and the world in the bounds of this meaning are always sorely disappointed when things don't go as they believe it should. Which is where constant prayer and reaffirmation of belief is constantly in play to try and change the cards to a game that isn't even being played.

Understanding that you can only apply meaning to things relative to you and your life is a good way to live life. Not slapping a huge "It's all because [x]" label on mine, yours, everyone else's, and the universe's whole existence.

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I just wanted to see evidence that you are reasonable: giving and taking reasons. It's ok, I will keep an eye out for it. I just didn't get this impression from the other thread where we met.

GrimKingGrim said:

By actually be a present force in our lives and actively trying to guide us through our perils with proper guidance and seeking only to watch us flourish.

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It seems like you didn't really understand the question I asked. You said that His choice to die on the cross does not demonstrate His love. I only know of two other choices He could have made: flee or fight. I just wonder why you have suggested that He did not prove that He loves us by the decision He made. Are you able to answer that question? (I am sorry it wasn't as clear, maybe it isn't the question you expected me to be asking).

Nevertheless, I will comment on the following too:

GrimKingGrim said:

Punishment would be to actually teach a lesson and not because he wants to hear screams, but then again he's a sadist so I guess it works in his favor.

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What are you referring to? If it is based on a biblical teaching, can you please find the verse that you have in mind?

GrimKingGrim said:

Ask yourself this question, I'm not sure if you're a parent, but say you were an absentee parent who goes to great lengths to hide yourself from your child at any cost and your child begins to act out in reaction.

Do you blame your child at all?

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I wouldn't, no. But this is not a very good analogy of the situation between God and a man. It is actually the man who hides from God.

GrimKingGrim said:

If all the supposed evidence to your child of you even being real is supposed gifts around him, clothes, furniture, a tv, but never actually seeing you so it's just as plausible to say that the child's mother simply says its from dad than it actually being from you.

Do you blame your child for questioning if you care or if you're there?

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Again, this is not realistic, because He did actually appear in human form. That did not sit well with some people. You should turn your accusations toward them, to be more right.

GrimKingGrim said:

If you then seek to punish your child for acting out with harsh groundings and ordering other people to beat him. But never yourself. And you still refuse to ever play an active role in their life.

Do you think the child would respect you?

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You need to explain what you mean with this one, I don't get it.

GrimKingGrim said:

And say you want to forgive your child and you want him to know it after being absentee his or her entire life. You want to forgive him and he has to know. You take another son you've had from another relationship, you brutally torture and murder him in front of many many people. The news media sees it and reports it for weeks.

"Man tortures and kills his son in broad daylight in front of crowd. After the child dies he screams 'IT IS DONE. I LOVE YOU SON! YOU ARE FORGIVEN! DO YOU ACCEPT THAT I LOVE YOU NOW? SEE, I MURDERED MY OTHER SON JUST FOR YOU!'"

Do you blame your child for not only not accepting a disgracefully unnecessary blood sacrifice in lieu of just showing your face and just forgiving him but also questioning who you're even talking to?

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What makes you think that God killed Jesus? Who told you that, and can you please provide a link to the statement?

GrimKingGrim said:

It would seem you don't even love your child and are so angry with him that simple forgiving won't do. You have to take out all that bloody rage and anger on someone before you can forgive. And who better to take it out on than your own flesh and blood? That way he won't resist or see it coming.

That's not what I would call "loving."

Would you ever do that to your own son or daughter? The answer is no unless I need to call police.

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NO! God didn't do that! Read up man, you are so wrong!!

GrimKingGrim said:

If you think a brutal murder just gets my stomach all in butterflies to praise something then you have a sick mind. Anyone who thinks that a brutal murder is acceptable as a payment is off their rocker. Why did god have to murder someone?

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Do you mean this?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3:22&version=NIV

.. If not, please provide the resource you are referring to.

GrimKingGrim said:

Why not just show his face and straight up talk to everyone in the Middle East?

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Ahem, He did actually. They didn't like it, remember?

GrimKingGrim said:

Not only that but the sacrifice didn't even work, he's supposedly still angry with humans so it may as well been for the crime of eating bacon for all the good it did. He seems really incompetent.

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Didn't work eh. What do you think it was supposed to achieve?

GrimKingGrim said:

The way he could show his supposed love is by actually loving and being there. Not killing.

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Why do you believe He is not there, loving us? Why do you believe He is killing, and who is He killing? Maybe I have not properly understood what you had in mind when you said this.

GrimKingGrim said:

Sorry, I'm not sick enough that I jump for joy thinking "man that Crucifixion was amazing, right?" All it shows is a reflection of the barbaric time those people lived in.

But let's play a fair game: How do you think God can adequately show his love? How do you think he should have? Do you think torture and murder was the way to go?

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God did not do that. You need to improve your knowledge of the facts quite substantially given the level of enthusiasm and certainty of your opinions. This would be a good opportunity for you to demonstrate your ability to reason. I wonder though, is this the right thread to do that? I think if you take a look at this post over here, maybe you will get an idea of the sort of doctrinal flaws you have accepted, then you can start looking into it, or at least pondering how your opinions might change if you were to consider the doctrinal assumptions they are based on as being invalid. I am happy to share the findings I have made too, if you would like to make use of that. Just PM me if you like, because you do sound very frustrated, and it sounds like it is all based on bad information. This doesn't reflect poorly on you, if anything it means you haven't even heard the gospel yet. (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+15:22&version=NIV).

GrimKingGrim said:

Yahweh fears death as all gods do. Death is the true unchanging. Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is just next in line as were the gods of yesteryear. His stalwarts are valiant but so were the previous ones.

But alas, we're just tomorrow's yesteryear.



Reason and understanding of the world around me isn't exactly something I can link to. But I'll explain it like this: the world is labeless and meaningless. If you try to apply static meaning to it that isn't "It has none" it will always strive to prove you wrong with ease.

Faith is a means to label life and try to pin it down to one meaning and a particularly disturbing one at that. And then those who seek to keep life and the world in the bounds of this meaning are always sorely disappointed when things don't go as they believe it should. Which is where constant prayer and reaffirmation of belief is constantly in play to try and change the cards to a game that isn't even being played.

Understanding that you can only apply meaning to things relative to you and your life is a good way to live life. Not slapping a huge "It's all because [x]" label on mine, yours, everyone else's, and the universe's whole existence.



By actually be a present force in our lives and actively trying to guide us through our perils with proper guidance and seeking only to watch us flourish. Punishment would be to actually teach a lesson and not because he wants to hear screams, but then again he's a sadist so I guess it works in his favor.

Ask yourself this question, I'm not sure if you're a parent, but say you were an absentee parent who goes to great lengths to hide yourself from your child at any cost and your child begins to act out in reaction.

Do you blame your child at all?

If all the supposed evidence to your child of you even being real is supposed gifts around him, clothes, furniture, a tv, but never actually seeing you so it's just as plausible to say that the child's mother simply says its from dad than it actually being from you.

Do you blame your child for questioning if you care or if you're there?

If you then seek to punish your child for acting out with harsh groundings and ordering other people to beat him. But never yourself. And you still refuse to ever play an active role in their life.

Do you think the child would respect you?

And say you want to forgive your child and you want him to know it after being absentee his or her entire life. You want to forgive him and he has to know. You take another son you've had from another relationship, you brutally torture and murder him in front of many many people. The news media sees it and reports it for weeks.

"Man tortures and kills his son in broad daylight in front of crowd. After the child dies he screams 'IT IS DONE. I LOVE YOU SON! YOU ARE FORGIVEN! DO YOU ACCEPT THAT I LOVE YOU NOW? SEE, I MURDERED MY OTHER SON JUST FOR YOU!'"

Do you blame your child for not only not accepting a disgracefully unnecessary blood sacrifice in lieu of just showing your face and just forgiving him but also questioning who you're even talking to?

It would seem you don't even love your child and are so angry with him that simple forgiving won't do. You have to take out all that bloody rage and anger on someone before you can forgive. And who better to take it out on than your own flesh and blood? That way he won't resist or see it coming.

That's not what I would call "loving."

Would you ever do that to your own son or daughter? The answer is no unless I need to call police.

If you think a brutal murder just gets my stomach all in butterflies to praise something then you have a sick mind. Anyone who thinks that a brutal murder is acceptable as a payment is off their rocker. Why did god have to murder someone? Why not just show his face and straight up talk to everyone in the Middle East? Not only that but the sacrifice didn't even work, he's supposedly still angry with humans so it may as well been for the crime of eating bacon for all the good it did. He seems really incompetent.

The way he could show his supposed love is by actually loving and being there. Not killing. Sorry, I'm not sick enough that I jump for joy thinking "man that Crucifixion was amazing, right?" All it shows is a reflection of the barbaric time those people lived in.

But let's play a fair game: How do you think God can adequately show his love? How do you think he should have? Do you think torture and murder was the way to go?

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But He didn't kill Him and God is One.
People killed Him, He let Himself get killed. He also showed His Love by healing people, raising them from the dead and multiplying food and when He went to heaven His disciples showed He loved them by doing the same. Unfortunately most of the christians have learned that He doesn't want to use us as He used the disciples, so there hasn't been much evidence for the ones that don't believe He exists. But that's changing.
https://www.thelastreformation.com/miracles-in.html

`And I will give you a heart to know me, that I am the Lord, and you shall belong to my people, and I will be your God’

The Son of God incarnate showed the Fathers love by loving people. Jesus spent his entire triumphant life on the cross of human experience. Death is the final experience for most men and women, Jesus voluntarily passed through the death experience and then returned.

Jesus was preordained to die.Why he had to die by being tortured to death on a cross is questionable however and arguably hints at Gods obsession with inflicting suffering on living creatures.
Fear God yes.Love him?

GrimKingGrim said:

the world is labeless and meaningless. If you try to apply static meaning to it that isn't "It has none" it will always strive to prove you wrong with ease.

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Interesting choice of words. It sounds as if the universe, by your philosophy, has a personality and will. That makes a deity.

hiphopopotomus said:

Jesus was preordained to die.Why he had to die by being tortured to death on a cross is questionable however and arguably hints at Gods obsession with inflicting suffering on living creatures.

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There's much to be said of humanity who killed Jesus. But of course the debate goes into the direction of sovereignty and free will working at the same time. What you may be missing, however, is that by dying Jesus opens the way for us to die his death rather than our own, thus escaping death in sin and being raised to new life with him. You are critiquing a particular version of the atonement, and only a particular part of it, without considering the whole.

GillDouglas said:

God is not a big fluffy teddy bear that is all sugar coated rainbows and hugs. There are some Christians that might preach this, but then they're changing the Bible to fit them instead of changing themselves to fit the Bible. God is just like an earthly parent who wants His children to obey. Just like a parent has a need for discipline when it comes to a child's obedience, the same applies to the big picture. We are children of God regardless of your belief, and you are not exempt from making mistakes regardless of how 'good' you think you are. If you screw up as a kid, do you not ask your parents for forgiveness? When they forgive you, do you then not except it? What causes you such heart hardheartedness that you are unwilling to treat your Heavenly Father the same?

God's wrath is real, and it will pour out on those who refuse to accept his forgiveness. God is a jealous God, and He does not want us worshiping anything over Him. If you do not believe in Him, than you believe in something else. A false idol. The new false idols of this world are money, property, self, food, celebrities, etc. When we love something worldly more than God we are living in sin. We must love God, each other, and put our faith in Him. He has chosen us, and we should be thankful. Follow the rules of the loving parent who created us, and remain obedient to the Word of God. "For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God." (1 Peter 2:15-16)

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My parents believe that discipline is about teaching ethical behavior and training children how to be productive, responsible, and considerate members of a family and community. They believe punishments are for deliberate deviations from that discipline, and that they should be proportionate to the offense and reasonable, and not evoke wrath or permanent discouragement. They believe that punishments should be restorative in nature because they are lovingly-given corrections.

I never believed that the story of Adam and Eve was to be taken as literal rather than a deeply profound allegory precisely because of God's punishments that were irreconcilable with that of "our father who art in heaven" who was loving, sacrificial, benevolent, and grace-filled. Imagine the stories of Genesis in other contexts. Adam and Eve were created fully grown, but lacked the years of experience all other adolescents and human adults have to learn about proper conduct, develop consequential thinking, recognize manipulation and temptation and know how to avoid it, and how to deliberate on decisions before making them. I don't think their concept of death or punishment would be that much more advanced than a toddler's who frequently disobeys orders because of weak decision-making abilities and impulse control, and a lack of forethought to consequences. They'll pick something up off the floor and put into their mouth a second after a parent just told them not to, put their hand on a hot stove while a parent screams out not to touch it, or run out in front of a car without realizing that it could get them killed. Without any perspective to understand a normal lifespan, with little understanding of life itself and none of an afterlife, why would they even view death as punitive? They could have viewed "don't eat that or you'll surely die" as hyperbole akin to parents saying "if you do that again, I will kill you / skin you alive / ground you for life." Even if they were born highly gifted, they'd still be naive.

My family volunteers with a medical program that brings children in war-torn or impoverished countries with serious injuries or medical conditions to the United States to receive the needed treatment, and hosted them and their parents at times. Even though those parents are fully grown adults and deserve to be treated with dignity as such, there are still protections put into place for them because of their inexperience with life here. Things that are routine to us, like how to understand crosswalk signals, or use an ATM machine or parking meter, are new to them. They are more vulnerable to predators. If God was acting in a parental capacity and was omniscient and omnipresent he should have realized the evil talking snake was slithering in the garden, and that Adam and Eve's nascence made them susceptible to its trickery. When predators lure children, the blame isn't on the child who disobeys their parents' orders to never go anywhere with strangers, but on the predator who exploited them. Another issue is that humans are naturally curious, and we often will defy orders not out of disrespect but just to find out what happens. Pandora was mythical but the humans who invented her story understood the pull of curiosity.

I've never known of a parent who gave a punishment for disobedience that would impact the rest of the child's life, much less all of that child's blameless descendants for all of their lives. If a child was grounded for ten years for eating a cake they were given clear instructions not to eat or else they'd receive that punishment, there would hopefully be intervention by child protective services because the excessiveness defies reason and is cruel even if it was warned about it in advance. Even the cruelty of capital punishment for adults cannot be inflicted upon all their progeny. I also don't know of any mentally sound and loving parent who gives up all hope of rehabilitation on their children and decides to drown all but a few of them, with the expectation that those who were spared would have incest with one another to create new families.

As for us, I think viewing hardships, suffering, and challenges that are not caused by our own wrongdoing as punishments from God are a way to create bitterness at the unfairness of them. I'm stunned by how many Christians in modern-day have written things to the effect of cancer and other serious diseases being punishments, either for the patient's sins or someone else's. Last night I read a post where someone told a woman asking if her schizoaffective disorder and depressions are caused by her sins that they were, and that sins goes back ten generations so she could be experience the consequences of someone else's sins. >.<

*Jesus preached his original gospel of salvation by faith, that all men are sons of God, potentially divine.

*Paul taught his compromised remixed gospel to the Pagan world who already had concepts of the sacrifice of a human/divine being for sin.

Those of us born into Christianity get our theological worldview as sorted through the Pagan view.

The whole of the NT is basically Paul's purported experience with Jesus on the Damascus road as the gospels were written well into Paul's greatly influential teachings.

Then the Roman church converted Paul's words into Gods, making Paul equal to Jesus.

GillDouglas said:

Sounds more like arrogance.

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Arrogance to keep to your values?

hiphopopotomus said:

Some interesting comments there Mark.

I think it probably fair to conclude from our human perspective that God is indeed evil.Of course that is only our [limited] perspective but one that critical thinking would lead us to believe.
Indeed a panel of psychologists and psychiatrists when asked to diagnose a personality type to God concluded that he was a classic sadistic psychopath.Most important indicators of that were intentional and persistent cruelty to animals,controlling and threatening behaviour and an [apparent] lack of empathy for the suffering of others.He even ordained the torture to death of his own son.

Which is why only a fool would choose not to believe in him and try to follow his orders.
Which is getting back to where this topic started.
We can admire the courage of those who choose not to follow this path but is even a small risk of being wrong worth the potential for future suffering?

The people I feel sorry for are the millions and millions who lived and died before Jesus and who were not given the opportunity to be saved.Count your blessings.God was really cruel to those people.

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I'm not quite sure, but are you saying that we should worship God because of what he will to do to us if we don't?

HatGuy said:

There's much to be said of humanity who killed Jesus. But of course the debate goes into the direction of sovereignty and free will working at the same time. What you may be missing, however, is that by dying Jesus opens the way for us to die his death rather than our own, thus escaping death in sin and being raised to new life with him. You are critiquing a particular version of the atonement, and only a particular part of it, without considering the whole.

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Well yes I can see that how Jesus died is not as important as the resurrection.However if Jesus died by falling off a cliff then his story would have been a far less dramatic or political one.Especially within a society in which sacrifice was held sacred.

Archaeopteryx said:

I'm not quite sure, but are you saying that we should worship God because of what he will to do to us if we don't?

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Well that is part of it but understanding the true nature of God is what is important and the best indicator[and reminder] of that is the way God set up the animal kingdom.He could have created animal life free of predation,hunger and disease but instead created one in which suffering is a fundamental component.
God is malevolent.Most Christians follow a sanitised "pollyanna" version of God and their own religion.

hiphopopotomus said:

Well that is part of it but understanding the true nature of God is what is important and the best indicator[and reminder] of that is the way God set up the animal kingdom.He could have created animal life free of predation,hunger and disease but instead created one in which suffering is a fundamental component.
God is malevolent.Most Christians follow a sanitised "pollyanna" version of God and their own religion.

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You think God is malevolent?

hiphopopotomus said:

Well that is part of it but understanding the true nature of God is what is important and the best indicator[and reminder] of that is the way God set up the animal kingdom.He could have created animal life free of predation,hunger and disease but instead created one in which suffering is fundamental component.
God is malevolent.Most Christians follow a sanitised "pollyanna" version of God.

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He didn't create it that way. They ate herbs. It was a result of the fall and inviting the devil in. In the new world the lamb will lay with the wolve again.

Skavau said:

You think God is malevolent?

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Of course.Is it not obvious?

hiphopopotomus said:

Of course.Is it not obvious?

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Yes, but why would anyone worship a malevolent entity?

GillDouglas said:

Jesus and most of the Apostles ministered to the Jews. Paul ministered to the Gentiles. Paul's letters to the churches of the Gentiles were Divinely influenced. Christian religious traditions are created from a blending of NT teaching and Pagan worldview.

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* Paul never claimed his letters were inspired, the church did. The church even said it's own councils were "inerrant". In fact when the OT books were all redone in Babylon the Hebrew authors made no claim of writing the Word of God. Those books were pseudo biographical works for spiritual instruction. After the return to Israel the people once again fell under bondage of the priestly yoke.

The original gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven was peached to the Jews, who were to be the teachers to the world (the 4 corners of the earth) but they rejected that gospel and killed Jesus. After the ascension the gospel changed.