Disobedience has consequences.

[oi_antz]

Did they all? Could, perhaps, some level of instinct be involved?

There are just some things I don't think you could convince me are acceptable. You could change my beliefs in a deity, you could maybe change my feelings about anchovies, but hurting people?

I think you are wrong about that, but it is only a hunch. Until placed in that situation, it is only speculation. It is a reasonable expectation thought that you will. For instance, some people choose to eat their loved family pets in times of serious crisis.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't get the question.

Davian seems to think sexual orientation and belief are different things. I don't know why. I wonder if you would be able to explain it to me. It's ok if you can't it just seemed like your post indicated you agreed with his idea, and as I know you, probably you understand what you believe sufficiently to explain it, and are willing to explain yourself. There are some people who just like to state their beliefs, oppose different beliefs and not back it up. I get just as frustrated with those Christian ones too, but there is something more humble about them when they are cornered. They just stop talking.

 

[Cute Tink]

I think you are wrong about that, but it is only a hunch. Until placed in that situation, it is only speculation. It is a reasonable expectation thought that you will. For instance, some people choose to eat their loved family pets in times of serious crisis.

Is that a position (against eating pets) that is held on the same level as the previous wrong (molestation)?

As I already told you, given the choice to take a bullet or hurt a kid, I'm taking the bullet. Both are life and death situations, yet my statement gives the opposite result.

 

[Davian]

I can, but it might be dishonest

It is against the spirit, and the rules, of this forum.

and in this case, I thought you need to be informed.

Informed of what? Your opinion of me? Your insights into my inner thoughts?

You owe me a few answers, please pay that debt

I owe you nothing. If you have a question, present it.

before asking for more credit.

I am not asking. If you are not having fun here, leave, or put me on ignore.

 

[bhsmte]

Davian seems to think sexual orientation and belief are different things. I don't know why. I wonder if you would be able to explain it to me. It's ok if you can't it just seemed like your post indicated you agreed with his idea, and as I know you, probably you understand what you believe sufficiently to explain it, and are willing to explain yourself. There are some people who just like to state their beliefs, oppose different beliefs and not back it up. I get just as frustrated with those Christian ones too, but there is something more humble about them when they are cornered. They just stop talking.

Here is my take on the difference.

Believe is something we come to based on a variety of different variables; our life experiences, how our brain is wired to think and the culmination of how our psyche is formed. Roll all those together and a person will form beliefs and also let go of beliefs, based on more life experiences.

Sexual orientation, would appear to be something that is set independently of our psyche and our life's experiences and will not change. Just as you can not choose right now, to change your sexuality, no matter how hard you tried.

 

[oi_antz]

Sexual orientation, would appear to be something that [...] will not change.

This causes me to think that I have a different view of what sexual orientation is than what you are using. I will need to research this a bit tonight, meanwhile please hold your horses, thanks.

 

[Davian]

Here is my take on the difference.

Believe is something we come to based on a variety of different variables; our life experiences, how our brain is wired to think and the culmination of how our psyche is formed. Roll all those together and a person will form beliefs and also let go of beliefs, based on more life experiences.

Sexual orientation, would appear to be something that is set independently of our psyche and our life's experiences and will not change. Just as you can not choose right now, to change your sexuality, no matter how hard you tried.

It is my understanding (based on my many hours of listening to Dan Savage's podcast ) that one's sexuality may change, but not in a manner that is under one's conscious control.

 

[oi_antz]

I owe you nothing.

I do not agree with this.

If you have a question, present it.

You do the legwork, it is you who did not pay on time.

I am not asking. If you are not having fun here, leave, or put me on ignore.

You are a very rude person.

 

[bhsmte]

It is my understanding (based on my many hours of listening to Dan Savage's podcast ) that one's sexuality may change, but not in a manner that is under one's conscious control.

I am sure that are cases of that, but are likely the exception rather than the rule. In the vast majority of cases, sexuality does not change during their lifetime.

 

[oi_antz]

It is my understanding (based on my many hours of listening to Dan Savage's podcast ) that one's sexuality may change, but not in a manner that is under one's conscious control.

Thank you. A question in Post #1055 that has not been answered might be useful for stitching this together. Thanks for the tip!

 

[oi_antz]

I am sure that are cases of that, but are likely the exception rather than the rule. In the vast majority of cases, sexuality does not change during their lifetime.

Does that indicate that the person has not encountered sufficient experiences to cause a change, or that the person is (ab/)normally resistant to change?

 

[bhsmte]

Does that indicate that the person has not encountered sufficient experiences to cause a change, or that the person is (ab/)normally resistant to change?

It would likely depend on the persons individual genetics. Just as with alcoholics, who may need certain environmental factors and life experiences to come into play, to flip the genetic switch that causes them to be alcoholics. Without these environmental factors and life experiences, they would not become alcoholics.

 

[Davian]

I am sure that are cases of that, but are likely the exception rather than the rule. In the vast majority of cases, sexuality does not change during their lifetime.

Agreed.

 

[Davian]

...
Do you reckon every single decision we make is a conscious decision? Or do you reckon some decisions happen without us even being aware of it?

It is my understanding that the modern philosophy of mind would have what we experience as having made decisions as only a narrative constructed by the brain.

From http://www.naturalism.org/metzinger.htm

The unsettling point about modern philosophy of mind and the cognitive neuroscience of will, already apparent even at this early stage, is that a final theory may contradict the way we have been subjectively experiencing ourselves for millennia. There will likely be a conflict between the scientific view of the acting self and the phenomenal narrative, the subjective story our brains tell us about what happens when we decide to act. (p. 127)

From a scientific, third-person perspective, our inner experience of strong autonomy may look increasingly like what it has been all along: an appearance only. (p. 129)

 

[oi_antz]

Is that a position (against eating pets) that is held on the same level as the previous wrong (molestation)?

As I already told you, given the choice to take a bullet or hurt a kid, I'm taking the bullet. Both are life and death situations, yet my statement gives the opposite result.

I don't think so, but as I went toward this earlier with bhstme in post #973 and he backed out. It seems like the same behaviour. I don't automatically assume that the same behaviour is going to stop at a given threshold, if not for circumstances (beliefs being circumstantial). Maybe you do, would you like to offer your view on that?

 

[Davian]

Yes, I do. Other's don't, and that is what I am questioning.

But is it a conscious choice, or not? Do you think you could decide to be able to ride this bicycle the moment you sat on it?

Anyone?

 

[oi_antz]

But is it a conscious choice, or not? Do you think you could decide to be able to ride this bicycle the moment you sat on it?

I think you have to decide to be able to, before you sit on it. It's a really interesting example though. Some people would watch others doing it, go "nope, too much effort, not worth the trouble". Some might try it and give up. Very few would take the time to conquer it like this man did. But he did, and you can see it was becoming second nature. It sort of shows that the brain can adapt to change it's natural reactions (which I think is sort of what sexual orientation is). But what if this became something so contentious as sex, and you have some who are staunch believers in the normal bike and some who believe it is their right to ride a backwards bike if they wanted? Would that lead to each party saying they were born that way and wouldn't change no matter what? Good point about child-brain elasticity. I wonder whether children's experience in life is so little they rely on grown ups to teach them stuff, they are accustomed to being corrected (learning) and is not until later when they begin developing a sense of identity and rights, that they begin asserting their point of view and that attitude gets more or less lost.

Also think about this, as I am good at reversing a normal car trailer. But I have only once tried to reverse a trailer with a turntable front axle. That was hard and I think I couldn't. I forgot when actually. Truck drivers can do it though, and they can turn it on and off. Also, it's a natural skill now, but I suppose about three or four times my habit has failed, and I had to stop and think about it and snap back into that trailer steering mode where steering left makes the trailer go right.

So this guy should be able to snap back and forth with practice just like truck drivers can snap back and forward between trailer types.

To illustrate the point I am making here, yes we need to decide that we will do it before we begin doing it. Likewise, I reckon we can expect, if it was normal that all bicycles had this backward steering, people would struggle to adopt straight-forward steering. But as I mentioned, our ability to adapt is further hampered by beliefs that prevent us from even wanting to become comfortable with a new habit.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Ok, thanks. Do you believe that omnipotence is a realistic idea? Ie, can you have a cake and eat it too?

I have no idea if omnipotence is a coherent concept. i don't have a frame of reference to base any claims of omnipotence off of. I'm just going by how Christians typically describe their god. It certainly seems to make theology easier if you conclude that whatever god you believe in isn't omnipotent. Takes care of some thorny theological problems.

 

[Cute Tink]

I am sure that are cases of that, but are likely the exception rather than the rule. In the vast majority of cases, sexuality does not change during their lifetime.

I used to identify as straight, then bi, then straight and now pansexual. I don't think that my sexual orientation actually changed during any of that. What changed was my perspective and acceptance of my own orientation during that time period. I wonder how many people whose orientation "changed" was more just how they considered it.

For example, a lot of people who are bi, but who are in a straight relationship may just start saying they are straight for simplicity.

I don't think so, but as I went toward this earlier with bhstme in post #973 and he backed out. It seems like the same behaviour. I don't automatically assume that the same behaviour is going to stop at a given threshold, if not for circumstances (beliefs being circumstantial). Maybe you do, would you like to offer your view on that?

In reference to the post from bhstme, people have different degrees of empathy for different groups of people. Whether you can condition that into people I'm not sure.

 

[Davian]

I think you have to decide to be able to, before you sit on it. It's a really interesting example though. Some people would watch others doing it, go "nope, too much effort, not worth the trouble". Some might try it and give up. Very few would take the time to conquer it like this man did. But he did, and you can see it was becoming second nature. It sort of shows that the brain can adapt to change it's natural reactions (which I think is sort of what sexual orientation is). But what if this became something so contentious as sex, and you have some who are staunch believers in the normal bike and some who believe it is their right to ride a backwards bike if they wanted? Would that lead to each party saying they were born that way and wouldn't change no matter what? Good point about child-brain elasticity. I wonder whether children's experience in life is so little they rely on grown ups to teach them stuff, they are accustomed to being corrected (learning) and is not until later when they begin developing a sense of identity and rights, that they begin asserting their point of view and that attitude gets more or less lost.

Also think about this, as I am good at reversing a normal car trailer. But I have only once tried to reverse a trailer with a turntable front axle. That was hard and I think I couldn't. I forgot when actually. Truck drivers can do it though, and they can turn it on and off. Also, it's a natural skill now, but I suppose about three or four times my habit has failed, and I had to stop and think about it and snap back into that trailer steering mode where steering left makes the trailer go right.

So this guy should be able to snap back and forth with practice just like truck drivers can snap back and forward between trailer types.

To illustrate the point I am making here, yes we need to decide that we will do it before we begin doing it. Likewise, I reckon we can expect, if it was normal that all bicycles had this backward steering, people would struggle to adopt straight-forward steering. But as I mentioned, our ability to adapt is further hampered by beliefs that prevent us from even wanting to become comfortable with a new habit.

How long does it take for you to decide what to have for breakfast in the morning? Does it take up to 8 weeks?