Disobedience has consequences.

[Davian]

Go to prison. Many perfectly heterosexual people chose to have sex simply because they want the relationship. Especially in female camps where it is regular practice to for same sex families with a defined Mom, Dad, and kids. When they get out they stay "straight".

Interesting, but the question at hand is, do you feel that sexual orientation is a choice? Can you decide to change your sexual orientation like you would decide what to have for breakfast?

 

[oi_antz]

I did not say to change over three days, I said for the next three days. Does it take you more than three days to decide what to have for breakfast?

What did I say to that? You really need to pay attention (I am counting, that's the third time I said that). I am already tired of you.

 

[Cute Tink]

Do you know of how to get a copy of the original article? This assessment raises questions. I wonder if anyone actually understands how genetics supposedly "shows that genetic factors are partly responsible for the trait" and "is accounted for by genetics". These are the sorts of statements that I like to be assured are reliable.

I don't understand much about genetics. When I look at actual study results and I start seeing the long, latin-based names for things, my brain generally starts shutting down. I really need translators for this information. I don't have any further information on this study as I didn't even find it - it was presented to me by someone who misunderstood the use of "environmental factors" in the article and quoted it to me as an attempt to prove the opposite of what it actually said.

Look, there is no need to make it any more complicated than it needs to be. Do you think there is a single person who cannot be brain washed? I reckon there isn't. But some will need to be handled differently than others, to obtain the required result.

I think actual brainwashing, for many people, would be very difficult (if not impossible) depending on the subject matter. The more strongly someone believes in or feels about something, the harder it would be to counteract that sense.

 

[Davian]

What did I say to that?

You said that you would need more than three days to affect this change, if you could do it at all.

You really need to pay attention (I am counting, that's the third time I said that).

What gives you the impression that I am not paying attention?

I am already tired of you.

Am I here to entertain you?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

False cause. I believe if He is absolutely powerful (I believe this is most likely true), He can, but that He hasn't, indicates that He has decided not to do it. But He might, and I believe He has said He will.

So the god you believe is powerful enough to have created a world where there was no suffering. And you agree with me that If your god's end goal necessitates children suffering, then your god ceases to be omnibenevolent. So either:

A. Your god isn't omnibenevolent based on an end goal that involves children necessarily suffering.

B. Your god isn't omnibenevolent based on allowing unnecessary suffering that isn't part of an end goal.

I'm glad we're in agreement...

 

[oi_antz]

The more strongly someone believes in or feels about something, the harder it would be to counteract that sense.

I know that strong beliefs and feelings can be changed, and I suppose you will agree. What I am really questioning is whether strong beliefs and feelings ever can't be changed no matter what. Especially since they have been developed in the first place from an absence of them.

 

[oi_antz]

Am I here to entertain you?

Honestly, no. I think you are here to be entertained by me.

 

[oi_antz]

So the god you believe is powerful enough to have created a world where there was no suffering. And you agree with me that If your god's end goal necessitates children suffering, then your god ceases to be omnibenevolent. So either:

A. Your god isn't omnibenevolent based on an end goal that involves children necessarily suffering.

B. Your god isn't omnibenevolent based on allowing unnecessary suffering that isn't part of an end goal.

I'm glad we're in agreement...

Good. So, the question was still not answered:

Do you know how He could achieve this [a world "in which no one molests children", but that where children are beautiful and people love them] in a way that is different than what He has done, with no compromise to the end goal?

Edit: and if so, please explain it.

 

[oi_antz]

Duplicate.. grrr, new website is too clever

 

[bhsmte]

I know that strong beliefs and feelings can be changed, and I suppose you will agree. What I am really questioning is whether strong beliefs and feelings ever can't be changed no matter what. Especially since they have been developed in the first place from an absence of them.

You state you understand strong beliefs can be changed and then the next sentence, you question whether strong beliefs every can't be changed?

Do you believe that strong beliefs can change over time or not?

 

[oi_antz]

You state you understand strong beliefs can be changed and then the next sentence, you question whether strong beliefs every can't be changed?

Do you believe that strong beliefs can change over time or not?

Yes, I do. Other's don't, and that is what I am questioning.

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, I do. Other's don't, and that is what I am questioning.

Of course beliefs can change, as long as each person gets to a point, where they can no longer reconcile their previous belief any longer and they move on.

I was a Christian for 40 years, so I changed my belief and did so because I acquired new knowledge as time went on, and I could no longer reconcile my belief as being legitimate. Changes like this don't happen overnight, but are typically a slow burn of recognizing a prior belief to be wrong and also when that person is willing to give up the previous belief, from a psychological standpoint. This process happens in a complex way and much of it is not by choice and not a conscious choice.

People with strong beliefs when faced with evidence their belief may be wrong will not immediately accept they are wrong, but will utilize defense mechanisms to protect the belief; denial, confirmation bias etc.. Why? Because when it is too painful to admit your belief may be wrong, your psyche will work to protect it, to ward of this discomfort. With some (as with me) the evidence became so overwhelming that my belief was wrong, it would have been more painful to pretend I could ignore this new knowledge and play mind games with myself and it was less painful to give up the belief and acknowledge well evidenced reality.

 

[oi_antz]

Of course beliefs can change, as long as each person gets to a point, where they can no longer reconcile their previous belief any longer and they move on.

I was a Christian for 40 years, so I changed my belief and did so because I acquired new knowledge as time went on, and I could no longer reconcile my belief as being legitimate. Changes like this don't happen overnight, but are typically a slow burn of recognizing a prior belief to be wrong and also when that person is willing to give up the previous belief, from a psychological standpoint. This process happens in a complex way and much of it is not by choice and not a conscious choice.

People with strong beliefs when faced with evidence their belief may be wrong will not immediately accept they are wrong, but will utilize defense mechanisms to protect the belief; denial, confirmation bias etc.. Why? Because when it is too painful to admit your belief may be wrong, your psyche will work to protect it, to ward of this discomfort. With some (as with me) the evidence became so overwhelming that my belief was wrong, it would have been more painful to pretend I could ignore this new knowledge and play mind games with myself and it was less painful to give up the belief and acknowledge well evidenced reality.

Thanks. Would you be willing to address a question I asked of Davian that he has ignored? I think that while Davian has some ability to ask good questions, he has a natural desire to duck questions. Besides being a personally rude thing to do, it actually prevents the truth leading us to where we should go. I think thoughtful conversation is not his interest, but I know you are different to him.

Ultimately meaningless. If I choose to live a small, windowless box, with no outside contact with the world, it will affect most, if not all of my beliefs. But, the subject was sexual orientation, not beliefs.

Can you please explain why you think these are different things?

 

[bhsmte]

Thanks. Would you be willing to address a question I asked of Davian that he has ignored? I think that while Davian has some ability to ask good questions, he has a natural desire to duck questions. Besides being a personally rude thing to do, it actually prevents the truth leading us to where we should go. I think thoughtful conversation is not his interest, but I know you are different to him.

Can you please explain why you think these are different things?

I don't get the question.

 

[Cute Tink]

I know that strong beliefs and feelings can be changed, and I suppose you will agree. What I am really questioning is whether strong beliefs and feelings ever can't be changed no matter what. Especially since they have been developed in the first place from an absence of them.

Did they all? Could, perhaps, some level of instinct be involved?

There are just some things I don't think you could convince me are acceptable. You could change my beliefs in a deity, you could maybe change my feelings about anchovies, but hurting people?

Duplicate.. grrr, new website is too clever

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Good. So, the question was still not answered:

Do you know how He could achieve this [a world "in which no one molests children", but that where children are beautiful and people love them] in a way that is different than what He has done, with no compromise to the end goal?

Edit: and if so, please explain it.

I don't know. I'm not omnipotent.

It seems that of all the omnipotent-y things a deity could do, creating the universe so that no one has the desire to molest children would be pretty trivial. Most people don't molest children. There's something different in the brains of people who do. So... eliminate the possibility that that difference can occur.

But I'm not omnipotent, so I don't know the specifics.

I'm just glad that we both agree that if a deity exists, it isn't all good. It was really the point of the whole exercise.

 

[Davian]

Thanks. Would you be willing to address a question I asked of Davian that he has ignored? I think that while Davian has some ability to ask good questions, he has a natural desire

How do you know this? Do you read minds?

to duck questions.

Which questions might those have been?

Besides being a personally rude thing to do, it actually prevents the truth leading us to where we should go.

Who is the arbiter of truth in these forums?

I think thoughtful conversation is not his interest, but I know you are different to him.

Can you refrain from the personal attacks?

Can you please explain why you think these are different things?

No. For that I would need to reference scientific literature, of which you have granted little credence to in the past.

 

[Davian]

Honestly, no. I think you are here to be entertained by me.

Not so much entertainment, but practice material. In real life I do not encounter any religionists, or any to speak of, and being here is a chance for me to interact, and observe. I trust that you are here on a voluntary basis.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't know. I'm not omnipotent.

It seems that of all the omnipotent-y things a deity could do, creating the universe so that no one has the desire to molest children would be pretty trivial. Most people don't molest children. There's something different in the brains of people who do. So... eliminate the possibility that that difference can occur.

But I'm not omnipotent, so I don't know the specifics.

I'm just glad that we both agree that if a deity exists, it isn't all good. It was really the point of the whole exercise.

Ok, thanks. Do you believe that omnipotence is a realistic idea? Ie, can you have a cake and eat it too?

 

[oi_antz]

Can you refrain from the personal attacks?

I can, but it might be dishonest and in this case, I thought you need to be informed.

You owe me a few answers, please pay that debt before asking for more credit.