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Disobedience has consequences.

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Davian

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I have a 19" laptop, but it is 1080p.

Ok. Why are you interested in my presentation?
I am here to observe religionists.
You are not in a position then to view it correctly. Do you want help with that?
Who made you the arbiter of what is correct?
I said it. It is possible that this information originated with Adam and Eve and transpired generations.
You missed the part of how you established this is possible, and simultaneously how most of mainstream science is wrong.
Do you mean that you did not understand the purpose of the link I gave you? You asked why you need to continue hearing about Jesus in the meantime until He returns. I showed you prophecy that the time will not come until all who will condemn themselves by persecuting those who testify to the word of God have done so. That was meant to answer your question.
When the perpetual motion machine fails to work, I will take the claims of the marketing department with a grain of salt.
The evidence is actually understanding, and I am offering that to you.
To date, I have only seen you offer credulousness.
Ah! You have been religious haven't you? A master of guilt!
No, just a watcher of Disney movies.
 
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Davian

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I didn't create hell. We have been down this road. You can chose to believe what you wish.
So, someone else created the concept.

Belief is not a choice. I do not find the claims of religions, particularly yours, to comport with observations of reality.
 
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GrimKingGrim

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Thank you. I think my patience in this thread has got to be a real life miracle.

Do not mock me. I find the fundamental misunderstandings in basic logic here beyond irritating. And the lack of pursuit of understanding to be just as irritating.
 
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LostMarbels

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Then I'd say that proof is for math and alcohol, and that what's needed is evidence. Which I haven't seen any of...
To find prof one has to study what they want to find a result from as it presets itself.
 
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LostMarbels

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Do not mock me. I find the fundamental misunderstandings in basic logic here beyond irritating. And the lack of pursuit of understanding to be just as irritating.
How do you expect it to be logical to test something you do not even have a basic understanding of? You have to have some form of understanding of its constructs before you test it, right?
 
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TillICollapse

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Do not mock me. I find the fundamental misunderstandings in basic logic here beyond irritating. And the lack of pursuit of understanding to be just as irritating.
Conventional-Logic-Vs-Religious-Logic_o_995.jpg
 
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oi_antz

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Do not mock me. I find the fundamental misunderstandings in basic logic here beyond irritating. And the lack of pursuit of understanding to be just as irritating.
Me too! But I have been bestowed an unnatural patience in this thread that has overpowered my personal desire to become impatient. I do not think that is short of a miracle. If I had responded the way I desired, I would have left insults and walked away twice already.
 
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LostMarbels

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Did I or did I not just say that we're not talking about proof. I'm asking for evidence.
Then I guess that brings us back to the bible and God which you will refute. I did not create God. It is God's onus to provided evidence.
 
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oi_antz

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Who made you the arbiter of what is correct?
I recognise the truth and I know when what you say does not match it. You said you see no delineation between Genesis and Acts. That does not match the truth. Different authors, written many generations apart, one observably able to have access to the information being stated, the other we have no idea how they got their information. Therefore, you were wrong and what you are seeing is demonstrably not reliable.
You missed the part of how you established this is possible, and simultaneously how most of mainstream science is wrong.
I am entertaining the assumption that the story states literal fact, that Adam and Eve were once in a paradise garden, then were banished from it, and then other stuff happened and we arrived at Moses in the Exodus. End of that story. If that is how it happened, then it is possible this information was passed through word-of-mouth or written communications, since there is no time during this process where there is not a person alive to carry the information. But, as I have no evidence of this, I am not able to discount the possibility that it didn't happen this way. As for how most of mainstream science is wrong, you will need to explain why you think mainstream science contradicts this version of events, and in a way that does not put the fault at an assumption of a starting point of zero (you already excluded that possibility earlier).
To date, I have only seen you offer credulousness.
This, your trusting of what you see, is a recurring problem for you, and I don't think it is right to blame others for that.
 
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LostMarbels

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**REPOST**

The first full bible with both OT and NT was the Peshito or Syriac. The date is uncertain, but agreed to be late first century, 160 AD to early 2nd century 240 AD. An guess what? This, the very first complete bible contains the verse:


36
And as they went on their way, they came to a certain place where there was water And the abstainer said: Behold, water ! What prevents me from being baptized
37
And Philip said: If you believe with all your heart, it may be so And he answered, and said: I believe that Jesus the Messiah is the Son of God
38
And he ordered the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, and Philip baptized the abstainer



Codex Sinaiticus, written around 330 AD Said to contain the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament was commissioned from Eusebius by Roman Emperor Constantine. An yet the verse is missing. Why? Lets take a look. When Constantine became emperor of the Western Roman Empire in 312, he attributed his victory to the Christian God. During Constantine's reign, approximately half of those who identified themselves as Christian did not subscribe to the mainstream version of the faith.Constantine feared that disunity would displease God and lead to trouble for the Empire, so he took military and judicial measures to eliminate some sects of Christianity. To resolve other disputes, Constantine began the practice of calling ecumenical councils to determine binding interpretations of Church doctrine. In 380, mainstream Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.Christianity became more associated with the Empire, resulting in persecution for Christians living outside of the empire, as their rulers feared Christians would revolt in favor of the Emperor. Then St. Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382. compiled the first official RCC bible in 400 AD, the Latin Vulgate. Which of course, does not contain the verse. In 385, this new legal authority of the Church resulted in the first use of capital punishment being pronounced as a sentence upon a Christian 'heretic", and the birth of the military might we now know as the RCC.

I think some people need to read up on the creation of the English version of the bible, and see how many were put to death, or jailed and hated by the Catholic Church. No king would dare go against the Pope, so the only way to become "authorized" by the Pope, put the Apocrypha in your bible, and adhere to RCC cannon. Also, the Catholic church was THE authority, no one came before the Holy Catholic Church. Not even God. Here are 2 examples.

John Wycliffe. To Wycliffe, the Church is all of those who accepted Christ as savior. Including the Christians on earth who are living; those who are in heaven, and those in death. He also preached that no man, priest or not was saved just for being a Catholic. There was one holy and universal church outside of it there is no salvation. Its head is Christ. He used to base this assertion off of Ephesians.

Eph 5:23,-24 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Wycliffe believed and publicly preached that " No pope may say that he is the head of the church, for he cannot say that he is elect or even a member of the Church". Also the "church" was not of the world but of God. This really angered the Catholic church, and the came against Wycliffe.

And guess what was in his bible? Da ta dahhh!!!!!!!! The verse:

35 And Philip opened his mouth, and began at this scripture, and preached to him Jesus. 36 And while they went by the way, they came to a water [they came to some water]. And the gelding said, Lo! water; who forbiddeth me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest of all thine heart, it is leaveful. And he answered, and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down both into the water, Philip and the gelding, and Philip baptized him [and he baptized him]

On 4 May 1415, (after his death) the Council of Constance declared Wycliffe a heretic and under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books (the bible) be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, Wycliffe's remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes were thrown into the River Swift.

Then, there was William Tyndale.Tyndale's translation was the first English Bible to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, ( The codex's, and not from the Latin Vulgate ) also the first English Bible to take advantage of the printing press, and first of the new English Bibles of the Reformation. It was taken to be a direct challenge to the hegemony of both the Roman Catholic Church and English Laws to maintain church rulings. The catholic Church maintained that the word of God was only to be interpreted and preached by "men of the cloth" and was to stay in Latin so common men could not read it.Tyndale was arrested and imprisoned in the castle of Vilvoorden for over 500 days in horrible conditions. He was tried for heresy and treason in a ridiculously unfair trial, and convicted. Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."

Just take a wild guess what was in his bible.............. Just take a stab at it.

The more you read about it you will find out people were forced to accept Catholic rule, and the Apocrypha; or be tortured, jailed, and possibly murdered. I mean they would just torture you to you admitted anything anyways....... no one stood a chance against the Catholic Church at this point in time. They literally told the masses what to believe, how to believe, and how to worship. Or else you ended up in an inquisition, and either were tortured until you confessed you were a heretic, or died from the torture. Please take into account that sola scriptura is an act of heresy against the church.

Jesus said that no house can stand divided, so that leads to a very interesting question. How could to know (accepted) leader of Christianity come against anyone that recognized the authority of God as supreme over the earthly church, as a heretic? Simple, it was not from God. My lord and savior Jesus Christ did not kill people for preaching the gospel. There in-lies a very real attack against the bible, and the wording used. Satan is the author of confusion, and father of lies. The Cacophony of versions to follow all have different shades of meaning, wording, and even missing verses. THAT IS NO ACCIDENT OR "NEW' TRANSLATION. It is an attack to make confusion of the word of God.

All of the new translations from the RSV in 1952; to the NKJV in 1982 ( only 30 years ago ), and beyond, all lean heavily on the dead sea scrolls and newly discovered Manuscripts. Yet, some believe they are more accurate than the 1611 kjv that came from the original manuscripts from 1500BC to 100AD. Doesn't make sense to me.
 
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I appreciate your attempt to be specific, but no goats or sheep are mentioned, so your point about Quakers, believers, evangelicals, and liberals is lost on me.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse.
Read what Jesus said-not some brief summary.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEgQFjAH&url=http://brucegerencser.net/2015/04/the-bankruptcy-of-the-evangelical-gospel/&ei=0l1iVcawOKXLmAXmkIGoAQ&usg=AFQjCNGJXRV4etH6WDFFunvbL47UXBrGoA&bvm=bv.93990622,d.dGY&cad=rja
 
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TillICollapse

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**REPOST**

The first full bible with both OT and NT was the Peshito or Syriac. The date is uncertain, but agreed to be late first century, 160 AD to early 2nd century 240 AD. An guess what? This, the very first complete bible contains the verse:


36
And as they went on their way, they came to a certain place where there was water And the abstainer said: Behold, water ! What prevents me from being baptized
37
And Philip said: If you believe with all your heart, it may be so And he answered, and said: I believe that Jesus the Messiah is the Son of God
38
And he ordered the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, and Philip baptized the abstainer



Codex Sinaiticus, written around 330 AD Said to contain the earliest complete copy of the Christian New Testament was commissioned from Eusebius by Roman Emperor Constantine. An yet the verse is missing. Why? Lets take a look. When Constantine became emperor of the Western Roman Empire in 312, he attributed his victory to the Christian God. During Constantine's reign, approximately half of those who identified themselves as Christian did not subscribe to the mainstream version of the faith.Constantine feared that disunity would displease God and lead to trouble for the Empire, so he took military and judicial measures to eliminate some sects of Christianity. To resolve other disputes, Constantine began the practice of calling ecumenical councils to determine binding interpretations of Church doctrine. In 380, mainstream Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.Christianity became more associated with the Empire, resulting in persecution for Christians living outside of the empire, as their rulers feared Christians would revolt in favor of the Emperor. Then St. Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damasus I in 382. compiled the first official RCC bible in 400 AD, the Latin Vulgate. Which of course, does not contain the verse. In 385, this new legal authority of the Church resulted in the first use of capital punishment being pronounced as a sentence upon a Christian 'heretic", and the birth of the military might we now know as the RCC.

I think some people need to read up on the creation of the English version of the bible, and see how many were put to death, or jailed and hated by the Catholic Church. No king would dare go against the Pope, so the only way to become "authorized" by the Pope, put the Apocrypha in your bible, and adhere to RCC cannon. Also, the Catholic church was THE authority, no one came before the Holy Catholic Church. Not even God. Here are 2 examples.

John Wycliffe. To Wycliffe, the Church is all of those who accepted Christ as savior. Including the Christians on earth who are living; those who are in heaven, and those in death. He also preached that no man, priest or not was saved just for being a Catholic. There was one holy and universal church outside of it there is no salvation. Its head is Christ. He used to base this assertion off of Ephesians.

Eph 5:23,-24 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Wycliffe believed and publicly preached that " No pope may say that he is the head of the church, for he cannot say that he is elect or even a member of the Church". Also the "church" was not of the world but of God. This really angered the Catholic church, and the came against Wycliffe.

And guess what was in his bible? Da ta dahhh!!!!!!!! The verse:

35 And Philip opened his mouth, and began at this scripture, and preached to him Jesus. 36 And while they went by the way, they came to a water [they came to some water]. And the gelding said, Lo! water; who forbiddeth me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest of all thine heart, it is leaveful. And he answered, and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they went down both into the water, Philip and the gelding, and Philip baptized him [and he baptized him]

On 4 May 1415, (after his death) the Council of Constance declared Wycliffe a heretic and under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books (the bible) be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, Wycliffe's remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes were thrown into the River Swift.

Then, there was William Tyndale.Tyndale's translation was the first English Bible to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, ( The codex's, and not from the Latin Vulgate ) also the first English Bible to take advantage of the printing press, and first of the new English Bibles of the Reformation. It was taken to be a direct challenge to the hegemony of both the Roman Catholic Church and English Laws to maintain church rulings. The catholic Church maintained that the word of God was only to be interpreted and preached by "men of the cloth" and was to stay in Latin so common men could not read it.Tyndale was arrested and imprisoned in the castle of Vilvoorden for over 500 days in horrible conditions. He was tried for heresy and treason in a ridiculously unfair trial, and convicted. Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."

Just take a wild guess what was in his bible.............. Just take a stab at it.

The more you read about it you will find out people were forced to accept Catholic rule, and the Apocrypha; or be tortured, jailed, and possibly murdered. I mean they would just torture you to you admitted anything anyways....... no one stood a chance against the Catholic Church at this point in time. They literally told the masses what to believe, how to believe, and how to worship. Or else you ended up in an inquisition, and either were tortured until you confessed you were a heretic, or died from the torture. Please take into account that sola scriptura is an act of heresy against the church.

Jesus said that no house can stand divided, so that leads to a very interesting question. How could to know (accepted) leader of Christianity come against anyone that recognized the authority of God as supreme over the earthly church, as a heretic? Simple, it was not from God. My lord and savior Jesus Christ did not kill people for preaching the gospel. There in-lies a very real attack against the bible, and the wording used. Satan is the author of confusion, and father of lies. The Cacophony of versions to follow all have different shades of meaning, wording, and even missing verses. THAT IS NO ACCIDENT OR "NEW' TRANSLATION. It is an attack to make confusion of the word of God.

All of the new translations from the RSV in 1952; to the NKJV in 1982 ( only 30 years ago ), and beyond, all lean heavily on the dead sea scrolls and newly discovered Manuscripts. Yet, some believe they are more accurate than the 1611 kjv that came from the original manuscripts from 1500BC to 100AD. Doesn't make sense to me.
So no Book of Mormon then, or Ethiopian Canon with Enoch in it, or Urantia Book, or NIV, or Shepherd of Hermas, or Jewish-Christian Gospels, and I'm assuming Roman Catholicism is out as a whole, yes ? What if someone claimed, "God spoke to me and encouraged me to use an NIV," or "God spoke to me and showed me signs to confirm that the Book of Mormon was the right path ..." or ... "God showed me that Russian Orthodoxy was the only path, and this was confirmed with miracles," what then ? Is the KJV the lithmus test in your opinion ? And what makes sense to you, may not make sense to everyone else obviously.

In all that you just pasted ... I don't see where any of that addresses how one would know what was God's words, KJV or not.
 
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LostMarbels

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So no Book of Mormon then, or Ethiopian Canon with Enoch in it, or Urantia Book, or NIV, or Shepherd of Hermas, or Jewish-Christian Gospels, and I'm assuming Roman Catholicism is out as a whole, yes ? What if someone claimed, "God spoke to me and encouraged me to use an NIV," or "God spoke to me and showed me signs to confirm that the Book of Mormon was the right path ..." or ... "God showed me that Russian Orthodoxy was the only path, and this was confirmed with miracles," what then ? Is the KJV the lithmus test in your opinion ? And what makes sense to you, may not make sense to everyone else obviously.

In all that you just pasted ... I don't see where any of that addresses how one would know what was God's words, KJV or not.
Nope. None of them for me thanks....

Unlike your opinion of fairy tales, I have a living God I can ask questions to.
 
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SkyWriting

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I think you are being deliberately obtuse.
Read what Jesus said-not some brief summary.

I was working with your link to the sermon on the mount. It had no goats.
Ok, so what specific problems do you have?
 
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SkyWriting

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Or the imaginary.

How do you use imaginary measurements?

Are we to put reality to a popular vote? I going to lobby for a change in the speed of light.


No, you can measure the level of spirituality in the world by asking people questions.
Like when people vote.....it doesn't determine reality. It just reflects what they think.
 
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