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Disobedience has consequences.

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Davian

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You have problems reconciling the contents of Genesis with what you believe the history of the universe to be. What about the content of the other books in the bible, particularly the book of Acts?
No, I have problems reconciling Genesis with virtually all of mainstream science, right down to the laws of thermodynamics. I am told by religionists that God/souls/Heaven/etc are all magically free of entropy because... well, after that they sort of fall apart and start preaching.
Not immune to that, at all. But I do know that these do not explain the sudden comprehension of Christianity that I was given in a moment when I asked for it.
How do you know this?
Would you like to offer an explanation for this then, I will be better able to respond properly then. I will be grateful for that co-operation
Parsimony. In the absence of evidence for gods, and in the light of how the brain can trick itself, the latter explanation stands, your credulousness notwithstanding.
"Convincing sense" and "common sense" are not science, or philosophy. As this forum Statement of Purpose states, we are here to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence. Perhaps your arguments would be better suited for the Exploring Christianity forum.
To consider your Adam and Eve story to be possibly true, I would have to entertain that virtually all of mainstream science and knowledge is wrong. You may be able to do that. If you are asking me to take that seriously, I cannot take you seriously.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Like sunbathing. Find where the sun is, sit in a deckchair and enjoy. It is not about 'praying hard'.

How does one "find the sun"? It seems like I'm chasing metaphors with you: "right place," "find the sun." I wonder what will come next - "use the force"?

If he did that we would no longer have free will. I think if I were God I would be tempted to do that, but clearly he must have his reasons not to.

That's not necessarily true. If you think intervening to prevent evil is a violation of "free will," then you must have a very low opinion of law enforcement. Does God not intervene to stop a rape because he values the "free will" of the rapist so much?

I mean why waste time here arguing with me? Why not go and save the world instead? It seems rather unreasonable to expect a God you do not believe in to do it, when you do not.
Who said that I do not try? You have no knowledge of what I do or what I hope to achieve.
 
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LostMarbels

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The Old Testament displays a God created largely in mans own image. Failure to reform and distinguish has left people in the awkward position of having to defend that image like an abusive and inconsistent Father figure by the anxious family.
I apologise. I do not understand you correlation to my post. Would you please explain? Thanks.
 
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Davian

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You should be though, it is foolhardy.
Why?
Like this comment that someone made to me today:

The ransom was paid to God; nowhere does the bible indicate that this payment needed to be made --or was paid-- to humans/mankind.
Until gods are shown to be more than characters in books, the passage has no significance to me.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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In that case, I apologise. I did not know.


Threatening people with hellfire for not obeying unquestioningly does make him a tyrant.
 
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Colter

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It isn't bias. It is a kind of folk memory; an echo of ancient memories of farmers displacing hunters.

errrrm, it's a kind of belief or opinion of the person writing or rewriting the story about the relative merits of the vocations. It's still prevalent today. Gen 4: 5"And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell."
 
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LostMarbels

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Davian

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Not my problem. Are you telling be that you cannot define this thing that you claim to believe in? Bizarre.

How do I explain that which you do not even believe in?
By presenting robust, independently verifiable evidence in the form of a testable hypothesis.

And refute the very notion of?
I have made no claim to refute.

I find myself not being asked to explain, but to defend and/or justify Gods word. That's not my job.
It appears that there is no one else here to do so. Shall we abandon the notion?

I am not responsible for Gods actions, nor can I judge them.
At this point in our discussion, gods are simply characters in books. You are getting ahead of yourself.

It is almost an attempt at using the physical realm to explain the metaphysical. Or to use how grass grows as an explanation of why water is wet.
I have no idea of what you are talking about, hence my request for definitions.

Mans ideals, morals, and social ethics have nothing to do with God.
So what do we need a god for?

Do you have something that does not appear to be an exercise in self-deception?

This is like trying to prove gravity to a man that dose not believe. All you have to do is drop the rock. Still there are some who will argue it was angular momentum that made the rock fall to the ground.
Gravitational theory is well evidenced and tested. How does this compare to gods?

If you are unwilling, then you will never find out.
Can you read minds?

No, I do not. I do not agree with you so I chose to not believe.
Belief is not a choice. Must we go through all of that again?

Anyone can accept a belief system without any reason at all for many reasons.
I am not anyone. I do not see credulousness as a virtue.

This leads to many trying to equate God to the same notion.
I have no idea what to equate your version of "God" to. I consider myself ignostic on this subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
 
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Skavau

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It sounds like you agree with me that belief is not always a choice. You cannot not believe in God. I cannot believe in God. I cannot change my position until confronted with new information that is sufficient enough to convince me.
 
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Skavau

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What warning about cause and effect does it attempt to teach?

What is the point of such a warning if it never ends?
 
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LostMarbels

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It sounds like you agree with me that belief is not always a choice. You cannot not believe in God. I cannot believe in God. I cannot change my position until confronted with new information that is sufficient enough to convince me.
The personal choice comes in to play with the refusal to look for proof. You do not want prof. You want to exposes what you view to be flaws.

If you want to understand God, you must go to God. An outright refusal to even go to God because you have no prof of his existence is self sustaining your position of their being no prof. You have to study gravity to understand gravity. You have to study God to understand God. To be dismissive without any research will never show you prof.
 
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Skavau

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I get the impression that you think you have some kind of say in what God is allowed to do concerning your life. Again, God is sovereign with unmitigated authority. He dose not need your approval, consent, or agreement for anything. You need his.
This is not a moral justification for anything. This is simply you saying that might equals right. God can do whatever he likes, whenever he likes to whomever he likes and it is always acceptable regardless of content or context.

Belief is not a choice. You've all but conceded this. You simply can't say it. You have accepted that one cannot just believe that 1+1 = 3.

You don't even know who Jesus is or my God. How then do you have such an innate ability to know their constructs?
The fact that God may torture people or allow their physical, emotional or psychological torture for eternity is not just a side point. It is an affront to all of my values. God, being such an omniscient entity should understand my objection, if he exists, is on principle and not for any self-gain. After all if God really does exist and really does offer hell for all non-theists then I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by being openly defiant.

How many conditions must God meet in your standards before you believe?
We're not talking about belief. We're talking about following, worshiping, endorsing. It is possible, hypothetically for someone to demonstrate God's existence to me. That's fine. They would then have all their work ahead demonstrating to me that God is worth worshiping and since I believe that praise of an omniscient and omnipotent entity is servile and ultimately pointless that would be hard at minimum. That your conception of God apparently supports torture and thought-crime it is even harder for you.

How much does God need to suck up to you in order for you to be okay with him?
The irony here is thick. What is it that God demands of people who want to be saved?

Should God steep down from his throne to appease you?
To answer my questions, if he exists. I accept no divine right of rulership on principle.

Monarchies are wrong. Theocracies are wrong. Dictatorships are wrong. Fascism is wrong. Totalitarianism is wrong.

You have no say. None at all. That is what people do not like about a sovereign God. They want God to appease them instead of serving God. When you refuse God, you refuse his grace, and choose your own path.
Most people's objection to God is not Anti-Theistic in nature but merely apathetic or antipathic. Most people just don't believe in God. They don't believe any offer or olive branch has been tabled.

I find that many people simply can not, or will not accept a sovereign God with absolutely immutable unmitigated dominion.
That's certainly true of me. I do not accept someone's self-declared supremacy and governance over me.

God is not a politician running a democracy that may be swayed with popular opinion or fear of being politically correct. He alone is King.
Non Serviam
 
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Skavau

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The personal choice comes in to play with the refusal to look for proof. You do not want prof. You want to exposes what you view to be flaws.
That's a different thing altogether. I do not actively look for proof for Christianity (or any religion, no). I don't have a confirmation bias in favour of any religion.

Your premise asks me to assume that God exists. This is absurd. I have no reason to assume that an entity such as God exists. We have peer-reviewed literature concerning gravity. They are not comparable.

Why do you say "prof" by the way? It is "proof".

EDIT: seen your explanation.
 
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Skavau

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All good. No harm. Besides I get it allot. 40 yrs old and cant write in cursive. Oh-well....





Warning..... not a threat.
God is omnipotent and is directly and indirectly responsible for everything. He could end hell. That he does not changes a warning into a threat.
 
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LostMarbels

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All of this for what? Why wont you just come out and say you will not serve a god unless he is perfect as you view perfection? I would guess this "god" has to ask your permission to act? Maybe be controlled by your opinions, and ideals? Go out back and carve one from wood or stone. That is what allot of peeps do.But where is this god's power? Who is this god that a mere mortal can make him bow, or even fashion his likeness? This is not a god, this is a puppet of our own desire, and a justification of our own beliefs.

I think the thing is, I do not hold to any religion. I confess Jesus Christ as the one true God, and I ask for my understanding as commanded to in the bible. If any, any, of my belief systems oppose the word of God, it must immediately be shot in the head like a zombie, and left to rot so it doesn't bite someone else. I wouldn't even consider to judge God, and expect him to conform to my own belief systems.

Jesus is a stumbling block, and the word of God can not be understood by the carnally minded. Which means they stub a lot of toes. Also, Christianity is hard. It's not all fluff like many assume. And it's not fear either. To love and worship a living God takes a relationship with that God. That takes effort, and the willful diligence of those who seek said relationship. I do not see where there is room to draw lines with God in what will and will not be accepted as His truth, by us, His creation. We need to ask the only one who knows the answers.
 
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Skavau

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All of this for what? Why wont you just come out and say you will not serve a god unless he is perfect as you view perfection?
I probably would not serve anyone full stop. Surrendering your life and negating your entire existence to adulation of an entity is servile and demeaning.

I would guess this "god" has to ask your permission to act?
I would think any act he does that inflicts upon anyone in the world negatively and/or against their will should be done with their consent. We're not automatons, or slaves. We're sentient and have long concluded that slavery is wrong.

I did not ask God to do anything on behalf of me.
 
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LostMarbels

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Skavau

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Yes.


Yes.


I guess, in a sense. A warning, ultimatum......

As I said before. God is sovereign. This is how it is going to be done. It is a warning because everyone is forewarned. You have your entire life to accept him.
It is entirely possible for me, like billions of others, to live my life in genuine non-belief in God(s).

Most of Scandinavia for example is probably Non-Christian. Entire parts of the world are Islamic or Hindu or Shinto with almost no Christian representation. He knows that billions will not believe in him and for entirely honest reasons yet allows them to be tortured for eternity for the crime of their conviction.
 
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oi_antz

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What gives you certainty of this opinion?
 
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oi_antz

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9 million children die each year, before the age of five and many in agony.

Is this all part of man's sin, that this morally perfect God created and set in motion?
I rather see as a consequence not being able to eat of the tree of life, which was caused by having pursued knowledge of good and evil. Yes, if humans had not been warring and striving against each other all this time, and making the world what God wants it to be, we would know how to cure these children and more importantly, to prevent the cause of their disease. You can see the problem in the world, can't you? Mankind has totally chosen to do what it wants and told God to go elsewhere.
 
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