disintegrating mainline identities?

[FireDragon76]

I started out as an adult Christian attending Continuing Anglican churches. But they were a bit too stodgy for me so I got involved in the Episcopal and ACNA world, and eventually settled on attending an Episcopal cathedral. What surprised me, though, is the diversity in the Episcopal church- to be frank there are some places where the message one would hear on a Sunday would be nothing like what I'd hear at the downtown church here. Some of the churches are very much about political action and seeing Jesus primarily as a political activist, even thinking about sin in strictly those terms. And it seems to come down to whether you live in the Bible Belt or on the Coasts, to generalize. And the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church isn't very well informed about the depth of traditional Christian theology or spirituality- I see her as barely Christian, in fact I see many Episcopalians this way, unfortunately.

Is this common to mainline denominations- is the flavor of what you heard and what the worship is like heavily influenced by where you live in the US?

I've thought about joining this Episcopalian congregation but honestly I am not sure I want to become part of a local congergation then potentially move elsewhere and be unable to connect with the same faith tradition. So I have been thinking about Eastern Orthodoxy, although the barriers to conversion, intellectually and spiritually, are very much present. I've also considered Lutheranism, but it probably faces the same issues as Episcopalianism. Politically I am moderate, especially on social issues. I'm don't really care about all the hot-button social issues that conservative evangelicals and liberals/progressives fight over and I'd never define somebody's obedience to Jesus based on those things- in my opinion both the conservative evangelicals and the progressives are building up their own idols to justify themselves.

 

[Johnnz]

There is considerable diversity within the Christian community. Within most groups you will find people who love and follow Jesus. He is the centre of our new life, not doctrines.

John
NZ

 

[Esdra]

I started out as an adult Christian attending Continuing Anglican churches. But they were a bit too stodgy for me so I got involved in the Episcopal and ACNA world, and eventually settled on attending an Episcopal cathedral in the south. What surprised me, though, is the diversity in the Episcopal church- to be frank there are some places where the message one would hear on a Sunday would be nothing like what I'd hear at the downtown cathedral here in Orlando. Some of the churches are very much about political action and seeing Jesus primarily as a political activist, even thinking about sin in strictly those terms. And it seems to come down to whether you live in the Bible Belt or on the Coasts, to generalize. And the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church isn't very well informed about the depth of traditional Christian theology or spirituality- I see her as barely Christian, in fact I see many Episcopalians this way, unfortunately.

Is this common to mainline denominations- is the flavor of what you heard and what the worship is like heavily influenced by where you live in the US?

I've thought about joining this Episcopalian congregation but honestly I am not sure I want to become part of a local congergation then potentially move elsewhere and be unable to connect with the same faith tradition. So I have been thinking about Eastern Orthodoxy, although the barriers to conversion, intellectually and spiritually, are very much present. I've also considered Lutheranism, but it probably faces the same issues as Episcopalianism. Politically I am moderate, especially on social issues. I'm don't really care about all the hot-button social issues that conservative evangelicals and liberals/progressives fight over and I'd never define somebody's obedience to Jesus based on those things- in my opinion both the conservative evangelicals and the progressives are building up their own idols to justify themselves.

As far as I got to know Anglicanism, I guess I can tell you that Anglicanism is quite diverse. And it is very well probable that you seem to be in another Church if you attend two different Episcopal Churches.
Have you tried ACNA? As far as I know they split from TEC also because of these issues.

And why don't you consider Rome if I may ask?

I can't speak about the other Mainline-Churches though, as I know too less about them.

 

[Tigger45]

I "try" to choose my congregations locally. But sometimes like the Episcopal denomination it can be tough knowing how they operate nationally and how they represent Christianity as a whole.

 

[FireDragon76]

And why don't you consider Rome if I may ask?

I can't speak about the other Mainline-Churches though, as I know too less about them.

I don't consider Roman Catholicism because I'm not a fan of the theological baggage that has impacted the pastoral tone of the tradition. There's Roman Catholic saints like Therese of Lisieux I admire but on the whole I think there's too many things like indulgences, purgatory, hypermarianism. etc. that don't fit with my view of what Christianity is about, which is more like Lutheranism I suppose than Rome. Don't get me wrong, I consider myself catholic just not Roman Catholic (or Anglo-Catholic for that matter).

 

[Tigger45]

I go to a Lutheran Church for Mission in Christ which is moderate and don't forget it's twin sister the North American Lutheran Church. I'm thinking the ELCA would be too simular to the Episcopal church for your taste.

 

[FireDragon76]

I go to a Lutheran Church for Mission in Christ which is moderate and don't forget it's twin sister the North American Lutheran Church. I'm thinking the ELCA would be too simular to the Episcopal church for your taste.

That's what I was thinking... if I had to move to a part of the country where the Episcopal Church was "the new religion" and not the Faith Once Delivered, I'd probably find a Lutheran or Continuing Anglican church to go to. Y

 

[Shane R]

All mainline denominations have their various synods and wings which fit most any flavor of popular thought. You could do some research and find where you fit.

But give Holy Orthodoxy a chance. Most Protestants do not understand how introspective Orthodoxy is, yet with a strong element of the church as a community. Orthodoxy also understands that faith is a journey, and you may be struggling down the road at a different rate than me - this is accepted, and the political overtones are greatly subdued because of this mentality.

 

[Tigger45]

All mainline denominations have their various synods and wings which fit most any flavor of popular thought. You could do some research and find where you fit.

But give Holy Orthodoxy a chance. Most Protestants do not understand how introspective Orthodoxy is, yet with a strong element of the church as a community. Orthodoxy also understands that faith is a journey, and you may be struggling down the road at a different rate than me - this is accepted, and the political overtones are greatly subdued because of this mentality.

Just a couple of months ago I was checking out an Antiochian EO church and would agree that this aspect of the church is true.

 

[Iosias]

Part of the problem with EO and other branches of Orthodoxy is that they are limited to certain parts of the world which means that for most, they are not a viable alternative.

 

[Norah63]

The title of the thread really does say it all. What ever denomination is out there, they are all changing to "suit the times". The one I was raised in went so liberal that they changed the name to suit the new walk. So I suspect that most other churches are about the same. User friendly I think is the newest term. Keeps the money and people flowing more freely. Is that a good thing????

 

[Peripatetic]

I think there's too many things like indulgences, purgatory, hypermarianism. etc. that don't fit with my view of what Christianity is about

I think you'd find that those stereotypes would not fit most of today's Roman Catholics. I have been exposed to a wide range of denominations, and I've found Catholics to be among the most bridge-builder friendly. Like most "silent majority" Christians, they tend to go about their business and would call indulgences and worship of Mary just as wrong as other Christians would.

 

[UrbanContemplative]

I started out as an adult Christian attending Continuing Anglican churches. But they were a bit too stodgy for me so I got involved in the Episcopal and ACNA world, and eventually settled on attending an Episcopal cathedral in the south. What surprised me, though, is the diversity in the Episcopal church- to be frank there are some places where the message one would hear on a Sunday would be nothing like what I'd hear at the downtown cathedral here in Orlando. Some of the churches are very much about political action and seeing Jesus primarily as a political activist, even thinking about sin in strictly those terms. And it seems to come down to whether you live in the Bible Belt or on the Coasts, to generalize. And the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church isn't very well informed about the depth of traditional Christian theology or spirituality- I see her as barely Christian, in fact I see many Episcopalians this way, unfortunately.

Is this common to mainline denominations- is the flavor of what you heard and what the worship is like heavily influenced by where you live in the US?

I've thought about joining this Episcopalian congregation but honestly I am not sure I want to become part of a local congergation then potentially move elsewhere and be unable to connect with the same faith tradition. So I have been thinking about Eastern Orthodoxy, although the barriers to conversion, intellectually and spiritually, are very much present. I've also considered Lutheranism, but it probably faces the same issues as Episcopalianism. Politically I am moderate, especially on social issues. I'm don't really care about all the hot-button social issues that conservative evangelicals and liberals/progressives fight over and I'd never define somebody's obedience to Jesus based on those things- in my opinion both the conservative evangelicals and the progressives are building up their own idols to justify themselves.

I can sort of relate to this post. I had great difficulty finding a church that I could really relate to. I liked the liturgical nature of the Episcopal church but I found the same issues you did. It seemed more like a political rally than a church; and I go to church not to hear politics debated; but to hear the Word of God proclaimed and how I can grow in my own walk of faith. I joined the UMC and really like it. I'm going to pursue ordination in the UMC. You will find some of that same stuff in our churches too though. My home church is very moderate; the pastor has never really mentioned the hot-button issues. I think he likes to stay above the fray. However another church downtown has the largest homosexual membership in my city and the pastor is openly proclaiming he wants to perform gay marriages. Like you, I'm getting tired of hearing about the whole mess. Can't we just agree to disagree and get on with learning about how we can deepen our relationship with God and others?

I like Eastern Orthodoxy too. I'm actually good friends with a Greek Orthodox Monk. I learned a lot from him. It suits the 'contemplative' nature of my faith. I also love the Icons and the chants and the liturgy. This to me...is what a church should look and sound like. But at the same time..I've got to be honest. I visited the Orthodox Church downtown many times at the urging of my monk friend. Other than the people who knew me; no one even said hello to me or my wife. My wife is asian too; so it just felt...well...like we were out of place...because everyone there you could tell was ethnically Greek..and they were not welcoming at all. My wife and I one time walked right by the priest who was just standing there doing nothing; he looked at us...but didn't even bother to smile, much less say hello. It was so weird. Here I've read all these books about Orthodox spirituality. I have the Philokalia. The Way of a Pilgrim is one of my favorite books in all of Christian literature. And yet...not even a simple hello. The MONKS are very friendly by contrast. I visited their monastery on several occasions...and they were just so fantastic. I may try to visit another Orthodox Church someday...but those experiences especially bothered my wife.

 

[lesliedellow]

Is this common to mainline denominations- is the flavor of what you heard and what the worship is like heavily influenced by where you live in the US?

You have discovered what it means to say that Anglicanism is a broad church. It has everybody from high church Anglo Catholics to low church Calvinists under its roof, and its congregations vary accordingly.

Having said that, the churches are in a mess at the moment. At one extreme there are liberals so far off the spectrum they don't really count as Christians any more. At the other extreme, there are the fundamentalists who never read any book except the Bible, and they think that is a science book.

 

[FireDragon76]

Having said that, the churches are in a mess at the moment. At one extreme there are liberals so far off the spectrum they don't really count as Christians any more. At the other extreme, there are the fundamentalists who never read any book except the Bible, and they think that is a science book.

I'm looking into Old Catholicism at the moment.. I'm socially liberal but liturgically conservative so maybe that is a good fit.

 

[Sean611]

I started out as an adult Christian attending Continuing Anglican churches. But they were a bit too stodgy for me so I got involved in the Episcopal and ACNA world, and eventually settled on attending an Episcopal cathedral. What surprised me, though, is the diversity in the Episcopal church- to be frank there are some places where the message one would hear on a Sunday would be nothing like what I'd hear at the downtown church here. Some of the churches are very much about political action and seeing Jesus primarily as a political activist, even thinking about sin in strictly those terms. And it seems to come down to whether you live in the Bible Belt or on the Coasts, to generalize. And the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church isn't very well informed about the depth of traditional Christian theology or spirituality- I see her as barely Christian, in fact I see many Episcopalians this way, unfortunately.

Unfortunately, this is the case in many cases. The Episcopal Church is very diverse and what you find in the same town/city can be very different. I agree about the presiding bishop barely being Christian, in fact, many of the bishops (even the liberals) seem to be very intimidated and afraid of her. Luckily, in 2015, Episcopalians have a chance to right the ship and elect a moderate. What they do in 2015 will have major implications for TEC and for those of us who are faithful Anglicans. I hope that God sees value in our church and saves us from ourselves.

Is this common to mainline denominations- is the flavor of what you heard and what the worship is like heavily influenced by where you live in the US?

It seems to be heavily influenced by where you live. In my location, most Christians are either conservative or moderate. In my diocese, the church is socially liberal, yet very traditionalist in most other matters (you can almost say that most of the diocese is Affirming Catholic). Some parishes are involved in politics, but that is definitely not the norm. I've visited many parishes in my diocese and have yet to hear politics from the pulpit. According to many polls, Episcopalians tend to be mostly moderate in their theology, while the conservatives and liberals tend to be about the same size and not in the majority. The most extreme wings of TEC tend to be in a tiny minority, yet it is they who dominate the discussion.

I've thought about joining this Episcopalian congregation but honestly I am not sure I want to become part of a local congergation then potentially move elsewhere and be unable to connect with the same faith tradition. So I have been thinking about Eastern Orthodoxy, although the barriers to conversion, intellectually and spiritually, are very much present. I've also considered Lutheranism, but it probably faces the same issues as Episcopalianism. Politically I am moderate, especially on social issues. I'm don't really care about all the hot-button social issues that conservative evangelicals and liberals/progressives fight over and I'd never define somebody's obedience to Jesus based on those things- in my opinion both the conservative evangelicals and the progressives are building up their own idols to justify themselves.

For me, I choose to stay in TEC for many reasons. I see this drift into liberalism as being a sign of the times and is something that will, eventually, sweep through most denominations. Also, I do believe that TEC will swing back to a moderate center eventually. I mean, it wasn't 50 years ago that TEC was known as the Republican Party at prayer. Alot can change in the next 50 years and I hope it is a return to a moderation and an emphasis on catholicity. If not, there are certainly other apostolic churches that one can find refuge in, however, I'm going to stay Anglican as long as possible or until they kick me out.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I'm a TEC member (and ELCA too, since our parish has both formal affiliations), and I am not dismayed by the diversity of belief within it. Being a "motley crew" is actually a traditional hallmark of Anglicanism. So long as the TEC does not abandon creedal orthodoxy, I will not abandon it.

 

[Albion]

I started out as an adult Christian attending Continuing Anglican churches. But they were a bit too stodgy for me so I got involved in the Episcopal and ACNA world, and eventually settled on attending an Episcopal cathedral. What surprised me, though, is the diversity in the Episcopal church- to be frank there are some places where the message one would hear on a Sunday would be nothing like what I'd hear at the downtown church here. Some of the churches are very much about political action and seeing Jesus primarily as a political activist, even thinking about sin in strictly those terms. And it seems to come down to whether you live in the Bible Belt or on the Coasts, to generalize. And the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church isn't very well informed about the depth of traditional Christian theology or spirituality- I see her as barely Christian, in fact I see many Episcopalians this way, unfortunately.

Is this common to mainline denominations- is the flavor of what you heard and what the worship is like heavily influenced by where you live in the US?

I've thought about joining this Episcopalian congregation but honestly I am not sure I want to become part of a local congergation then potentially move elsewhere and be unable to connect with the same faith tradition. So I have been thinking about Eastern Orthodoxy, although the barriers to conversion, intellectually and spiritually, are very much present. I've also considered Lutheranism, but it probably faces the same issues as Episcopalianism. Politically I am moderate, especially on social issues. I'm don't really care about all the hot-button social issues that conservative evangelicals and liberals/progressives fight over and I'd never define somebody's obedience to Jesus based on those things- in my opinion both the conservative evangelicals and the progressives are building up their own idols to justify themselves.

As one who has wrestled with the same questions and experienced the same churches, I have an answer FWIW. You are correct in assessing TEC, but it is not typical of the mainline denominations. It is leading the way for all the rest, in fact. What's more, its membership, despite constant withdrawals, is so far ahead of the conservative Anglican bodies, that it can move Left without too much fear from the churches of their former cohorts.

Neither of those situations is quite true with the Lutherans, Baptists, etc. The main church body in these other denominations usually still has some balance of Liberals and Conservatives, even when tipped towards the former. And they do have rivals of their own faith to keep in mind.

A good example is the Lutherans. Like most of the mainline Protestant bodies, the best-known branches are the result of a coming-together of various smaller bodies planted in the New World by different missionaries and emigrations. Not so TEC, which had a monopoly until recently and was not the result of any mergers.

So among Lutherans the ELCA is the largest, but only because it was formed by a merger of three smaller Lutheran conferences. And the Missouri Synod is not all that far behind. This is not a situation of one big dog and some annoying pups that can be brushed off. If you were to decide on Lutheranism, IOW, it would most likely not mean taking the route of the splinter group barely hanging on or just starting up. You'd be joining a church with a long history and is recognized for its confessionalism, colleges, seminaries, etc. that the smaller offshoots of TEC can only hope for.

 

[hedrick]

There has always been a good deal of variation within Anglicanism, back to the founding. In the early days, some wanted a fully Reformed church, others just to get enough away from the Pope to let the King remarry. Through much of its history there were at least two parties with very different ideas.

You'll find a fair degree of variation within most churches that aren't strongly committed to detailed confessions, e.g. the conservative Presbyterian and Lutheran denominations.

Mainline churches have their own peculiar causes of variation, largely due to different churches having different attitudes towards critical scholarship. That tends to vary between North and South, but it's certainly not uniform. I'm a member of the PCUSA. I've attended Presbyterian churches in a number of places, and not seen big differences, but I haven't been in any conservative PCUSA churches. We have a fairly large theological range within my own congregation, but that doesn't seem to pose any significant problem.

Among the mainline congregations that are actually mainline (i.e. not conservative) I find a reasonable degree of commonality, even across the mainline denominations. All tend to emphasize Jesus' life and teaching, and tend not to mandate doctrinal abstractions. E.g. PCUSA doctrinal statements in the past 50 years have tended to stick with Biblical language, and not speak of the Trinity or Incarnation in terms of hypostasis and ousia. Nor do they emphasize specific ways of reconciling grace with human responsibility (despite our historical connection with predestination and associated ideas). I think this is typical of mainline theology. For me the essence of being mainline is that we emphasize core Christian ideas, and themes that are consistent across a large swath of Scripture. We then allow variation in specific interpretations and applications of these core ideas.

 

[saintboniface]

I'm looking into Old Catholicism at the moment.. I'm socially liberal but liturgically conservative so maybe that is a good fit.

The Catholic Church would be of no use for you if you are socially liberal (which I assume to mean you find no evil in abortion, contraception, euthanasia, homosexual acts, etc). While compassionate to sinners, the Church is vehemently opposed to these things. To join the Church but to dissent from her teachings puts one in grave sin.