disgraceful decadence of liturgy

[Stormy]

Not even tapping his foot under all those robes so no one can see him?

Even Amazing Grace is beautiful with a few bongos!!!

I totally agree with the idea of reverence during mass. But I also feel that as an exit song... It's totally appropriate! As everyone is leaving church, they definately should REJOICE and SHOUT about the Holy Spirit!!! It always leaves me with a great feeling when leaving church...... Just my opinion!

I agree! Christ is risen and we are saved! Why sing gloomy songs? We have every reason to be joyous!

 

[InnerPhyre]

We have guitars at mass, and we clap during the Glory to God. I like it. Gets people to actually focus on what they're doing rather than just droning along meaninglessly. There is NOTHING wrong with praising God with your whole body. Especially when you look at the miracle that happens before us every week at the mass. When I'm praising God in heaven, I'm not just going to stand still in one place singing softly.

 

[Axion]

Many of the 'reverent' hymns like "Joyful, Joyful" were originally just re-writing the lyrics of 'drinking songs' from the pubs in Europe and at the time were considered scandalous. Now they're what we consider reverent.

I don't know that one. But I don't think this is a pub drinking song.

Soul of my Saviour, Sanctify my breast;
Body of Christ be Thou my saving guest;
Blood of my Saviour, bathe me in Thy tide,
Wash me ye waters flowing from His side.

Strength and protection may His passion be
O Blessed Jesus hear and answer me;
Deep in thy wounds Lord hide and shelter me;
So shall I never, never part from Thee.

Guard and defend us from the foe malign;
In death's dread moments make me only Thine;
Call me and bid me come to Thee on high;
Where I may praise Thee with Thy saints for aye.

 

[Axion]

We have guitars at mass, and we clap during the Glory to God. I like it. Gets people to actually focus on what they're doing rather than just droning along meaninglessly. There is NOTHING wrong with praising God with your whole body. Especially when you look at the miracle that happens before us every week at the mass. When I'm praising God in heaven, I'm not just going to stand still in one place singing softly.

The "Happy Clappy" has its place. But "as well as" the great Catholic heritage of worship, not "instead of".

 

[Lifesaver]

Not every music that is fit to be performed outside the church is fit to be performed inside it.

St. Pius X, 101 years ago, and Pope John Paul II, one year ago, both proclaimed:

"The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple"

Guitars, rock and clapping are very much out of harmony with Gregorian chant. We can all agree on that, right? Therefore, it is very little worthy of the temple.

Rock does not belong in the liturgy at all. No matter how many tears are shed, and how many claps are given.

Concerning sacred music, I link to Pope John Paul II's recent pronouncement regarding Pope St. Pius X's motu proprio:"Tra Le Sollicitudine"
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j...ts/hf_jp-ii_let_20031203_musica-sacra_en.html

I have a link to "Tra Le Sollicitudine" in Portuguese. I searched for it in English, but the only link found was in a sspx site, and even then it only contained a little piece.
If someone knows Portuguese, or would like to translate it using a web tool, here it is
http://www.montfort.org.br/documentos/musica_sacra.html

 

[PeterPaul]

I agree! Christ is risen and we are saved! Why sing gloomy songs? We have every reason to be joyous!

There is nothing "gloomy" about the chants of the past 2000 years.

 

[Lifesaver]

In Mass we remember Christ's sacrifice for us, and are called to offer our lives to God.

From the very proponents of "rock-style worship", their liturgy are made joyous, and more in line with protestant meals that Catholic Mass.

Look, I'm not one of those "rock is of the devil" kinds. I like rock. But it is very, very clear that it is not a style suited to sacred music. I don't know why anyone would disagree, as it is very obvious.

 

[PeterPaul]

18. É proibido, na Igreja, o uso do piano bem como o de instrumentos fragorosos, o tambor, o bombo, os pratos, as campainhas e semelhantes.

19. É rigorosamente proibido que as bandas musicais toquem nas igrejas, e só em algum caso particular, com o consentimento do Ordinário, será permitida uma escolha limitada, judiciosa e proporcionada ao ambiente de instrumentos de sopro, contanto que a composição seja em estilo grave, conveniente e semelhante em tudo às do órgão.

Thanks for the link!

 

[FoundWanting]

I took My Mom to a church one time and me and her began clapping to the lord after a song and the preacher stopped the service and told us there was gonna be no clapping.He said that was in the old Testament and that's what David did.He said we aint in the old Testament no more.

 

[Carrye]

There is nothing "gloomy" about the chants of the past 2000 years.

They're quite the opposite in fact -- ymoolg, if you will.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I personally think that any instrument, from organ to kazoo when it is used to reverently make music to glorify the Lord can be used during mass.

I'm not at all making fun of you, but I had a good laugh when the image of a person "plaiying the kazoo reverently" came into my mind. My roommate is sleeping in the room witht he computer right now so I litterally had to bite my tongue when that image popped into my mind. But I do understand and respect your point even if I do not totally agree with it. So, what I said was not meant to defent or refute your point.

God bless you,

James

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Eye N Stl

Go to a Eastern Catholic Church (Melkite, Byzantine...) a few Sundays in a row. Tell me if you can ever picture someone playing a toe-tapper there. It just does not work. As an Eastern Christian, I can just not imagine that ever happening and I pray that it never will (actually I don't pray that because I take for granted that it never will happen... I shouldn't assume that and should probably, instead, pray that). Our entire identity is found/rooted in our Liturgy. Where we come from, who we are, what we believe and how we view God. Yes, Jesus is our best friend in some way, but that is truely an understatement. Thomas said "My Lord and my God", and bowed down to him and Mary Magdalene poured precious perfume on His feet. Campfires and Fellowship gatherings are great times to use this more toetappin' style you like. In fact I think that's great and there are many songs I love from the days when I was a Lutheran. But the Divine Liturgy is seen in the East as outside of time, where Heaven meets Earth. Does this happen at the contemporary Masses... no doubt, but the music is not conducive to allowing the people to realize this. The sense of Mystery is gone or at least diminished. I would also argue that the Service slowly (although unintentionally) becomes anthrocentric (surrounded around what WE like) and not theocentric. Just like we conform to the Church, we also conform to Her supreme expression of Faith, the Holy Mass. Sure, things change and are added over time.. but this had always been done very slowly and with much discernment of very holy people (SAINTS!)... and the style was always the consistent. While the Trinitine Mass (for example) is very different from the Melkite Liturgy, the style and the feeling of awe, is still there.

I know I am explaining things from an Orthodox point of view but this applies perfectly to the Eastern Catholic POV on the Liturgy and that of more "old school" Latin Catholics (for lack of a better word). So please don't take this as a bash on the RCC. Also, please understand that I do not question your sincerity in wishing to worship God with all of your heart. I HONESTLY do not doubt it for a moment.

In Christ,

James

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Very well put James, thanks for your addition to this thread.

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

The other day at Mass, the choir sang a beautiful, beautiful traditional song from the St. James liturgy, I wish I could remember the name of it, but it was awesome.

I found it, here is the hymn, it is beautiful:

Cherubic Hymn:

Let all mortal flesh be silent, and stand with fear and trembling, and meditate nothing earthly within itself.
For the King of kings and Lord of lords, Christ our God, comes forward to be sacrificed, and to be given for food to the faithful.
And the bands of angels go before Him with every power and dominion, the many-eyed cherubim, and the six-winged seraphim, covering their faces, and crying aloud the hymn,
Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.​

 

[Xpycoctomos]

P2beCatholic

That is truely moving... thanks

James

 

[Skripper]

. . . I would also argue that the Service slowly (although unintentionally) becomes anthrocentric (surrounded around what WE like) and not theocentric. . . .

Exactly. Great point.

 

[Eye_n_stl]

Wow ya'll! I've really got a new perspective on opinions now!! Thanks!!

Just another thought.....

You know what this "debate" reminds me of? When Elvis made it big, and everyone claimed he was the "work of the devil" All the jiggling and jerking around!! AND THE MUSIC!!! It just kind of strikes me as VERY funny!!

James, thank you so much for sharing that with us! I will definately check out the different masses... I'm not really sure what the difference is. MORE RESEARCH!!!

We have a HUGE variety of churches here in STL.. We have a Polish(that doesn't look right?) Church, where they say the mass in their native tounge... We also have a church called the Rock(nickname/ Actually ST Peter's), that is predominantely African American.... They mostly sing gosple type music.. And all kinds of others!

I feel I am really blessed that we have a LMD that uses the FULL gammet... That way depending on your mood, you can go to that mass......

I just can't help it! I'm a MUSIC FREAK! And anything that helps me proclaim God's Glory fills my heart and soul.... I'm sure I'd really enjoy a mass that chanted thru the whole thing too.... It's just the way I am!

 

[PeterPaul]

But liturgy is not about mood. See, that's the point? Mass is about SACRIFICE, not hand clapping. The variety is exactly what I find is at fault with this concept. The Church is universal. For me to go to Missouri and find people clapping, while at another
Mass in Georgia they are solemn does not IMO constitute universal.

There were days when the Mass could be understood in France as in Japan, but language and "style" of worship are now in its place. As Catholics, it is interior prayer that we treasure.

Mat 6:5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

Mat 6:6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret, and thy father who seeth in secret will repay thee.

 

[PeterPaul]

Eye N Stl

Go to a Eastern Catholic Church (Melkite, Byzantine...) a few Sundays in a row. Tell me if you can ever picture someone playing a toe-tapper there. It just does not work. As an Eastern Christian, I can just not imagine that ever happening and I pray that it never will (actually I don't pray that because I take for granted that it never will happen... I shouldn't assume that and should probably, instead, pray that). Our entire identity is found/rooted in our Liturgy. Where we come from, who we are, what we believe and how we view God. Yes, Jesus is our best friend in some way, but that is truely an understatement. Thomas said "My Lord and my God", and bowed down to him and Mary Magdalene poured precious perfume on His feet. Campfires and Fellowship gatherings are great times to use this more toetappin' style you like. In fact I think that's great and there are many songs I love from the days when I was a Lutheran. But the Divine Liturgy is seen in the East as outside of time, where Heaven meets Earth. Does this happen at the contemporary Masses... no doubt, but the music is not conducive to allowing the people to realize this. The sense of Mystery is gone or at least diminished. I would also argue that the Service slowly (although unintentionally) becomes anthrocentric (surrounded around what WE like) and not theocentric. Just like we conform to the Church, we also conform to Her supreme expression of Faith, the Holy Mass. Sure, things change and are added over time.. but this had always been done very slowly and with much discernment of very holy people (SAINTS!)... and the style was always the consistent. While the Trinitine Mass (for example) is very different from the Melkite Liturgy, the style and the feeling of awe, is still there.

I know I am explaining things from an Orthodox point of view but this applies perfectly to the Eastern Catholic POV on the Liturgy and that of more "old school" Latin Catholics (for lack of a better word). So please don't take this as a bash on the RCC. Also, please understand that I do not question your sincerity in wishing to worship God with all of your heart. I HONESTLY do not doubt it for a moment.

In Christ,

James

Exactly! We have made of our God a buddy, perhaps because society has taught that we should be friends with our children. This, IMO is a faulty relationship, and has sprung as early as the '60's. Children no longer view their parents as sovereigns, but as friends who they can abuse.

Check every apparition, from Saul to the present, and you will find everyone ON THEIR KNEES (for those of you who like to stand)! I didn't see anyone say "how are you brother?", but tremble and fall to their knees in adoration, fear and awe.

 

[Miss Shelby]

But liturgy is not about mood. See, that's the point? Mass is about SACRIFICE, not hand clapping. The variety is exactly what I find is at fault with this concept. The Church is universal. For me to go to Missouri and find people clapping, while at another
Mass in Georgia they are solemn does not IMO constitute universal.

There were days when the Mass could be understood in France as in Japan, but language and "style" of worship are now in its place. As Catholics, it is interior prayer that we treasure.

Mat 6:5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

Mat 6:6 But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret, and thy father who seeth in secret will repay thee.