Islam Discussions with Muslims about Islam

[Limo]

Before the average Christian starts a conversation about the religious aspects of Islam I believe there are a few things they need to understand.

1st. Research the meaning of Abrogation as it pertains to Islam. Naskh (نسخ) is an Arabic word usually translated as "abrogation"; It is a term used in Islamic legal exegesis for seemingly contradictory material within, or between, the two primary sources of Islamic law: the Quran and the Sunna. But it is so much more and you need to toughly understand that so look up Abrogation in Islam from many sources and not just Islamic ones.

2nd. Research and understand the meaning of the Terms Kitman and Taqiya as they pertain to Islam.

In Islam, Taqiya or taqiyya is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. Another term for this concept, kitmān, has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission. This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. However, it is also permitted in Sunni Islam under certain circumstances.

The following is but a tiny example!

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences" or "gain the upper-hand over an enemy"
There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya (the Shia name). These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..."

So you need to study Islam and its foundations before attempting an honest conversation so you will understand when you are being deceived by permission of Islams texts. Be wise my friends and educate yourselves in the traps of Islam first.

There is no What you call Kitman or Taqya or pertaining different belief in Islam. Shias have this but should be against Sunnis specifically.

One can lie (not Taqya not Kitman) in some cases:

• One on his wife/husband. Things like you're the most beautiful man/woman...
• Solve conflicts between wife/husband or groups or tribes
• On enemy

Even some scholars disagree to lie in such situations.

Vice versa is correct, Allah and Prophet ordered us all the time to demonstrate our belief and show differences especially in behavior with other religion.
In some circumstances, whenever life is in threat , Muslim can say something to non-Muslims to release him. But it's not allowed for Shikh who should face tyrants or non-Muslims.

 

[Barney2.0]

Are you sure about you've the upper hand in every single argument with Muslims ?
How many Muslims turned to Christianity by you after you won these discussions ?

Are you sure that you've done so Even in Saidi Arabia as you're pertaining in your profile.

Well I’m not a missionary, I’ve never turned Muslims to Christianity, but I sure have beaten quite a few in numerous and different arguments. Yeah I’ve done so in Saudi, there’s a difference between arguing with Islamic scholars and sheikhs then preaching which I have not done.

 

[Limo]

Well I’m not a missionary, I’ve never turned Muslims to Christianity, but I sure have beaten quite a few in numerous and different arguments. Yeah I’ve done so in Saudi, there’s a difference between arguing with Islamic scholars and sheikhs then preaching which I have not done.

In Saudi Arabia, I wish I could believe it.

You shouldn't care if I believe you or not.

 

[Barney2.0]

In Saudi Arabia, I wish I could believe it.

You shouldn't care if I believe you or not.

I really do not care if you believe me or not.

 

[dzheremi]

Why would it be unbelievable that Al Masihi is in Saudi? The last time I called someone from my old church congregation to ask how everyone was, he told me that they baptized a Saudi woman since I left. It happens, even if the state she comes from wouldn't recognize it. Saudis are not by default firm Muslims. In fact, in the city where I went to college for my undergraduate degree, Saudis were the second largest foreign-born student population behind the Japanese, and I knew several Saudi men who lived in my apartment building, and one who was an aide in the Arabic class I attended for one year. They were presumably all Muslims, but I heard an interesting story from a local cab driver in the city: every weekend, he (the cab driver) makes so much money from picking up these Saudi guys at bars, because they get so drunk and obnoxious that the owners of the bars have to kick them out. This happens every weekend. I didn't know, because I didn't go to bars, but it matches what my Saudi friend Meedo (a fellow student at the local university) said about why he went to bars: "I am in America; it's a free country". I guess Allah is not paying attention to America because it is a land of unbelievers, or maybe he is busy receiving Islamic worship through the black stone within the cube in Mecca, or reciting the Qur'an to himself in heaven from the preserved tablet. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The point is if Saudis (or any other people for that matter) can behave like this (and not just in America; my Arabic professor at that same university lived in the Gulf for years, and he said that the King Fahd bridge/causeway that connects Saudi and Bahrain was known in Saudi and Bahrain by some people as "Johnnie Walker Bridge" because it is used by Saudis to go get drunk in Bahrain, where alcohol is more freely available than in Saudi), then it shouldn't be unbelievable that some of them could do other things that are not social acceptable or legal in Saudi -- like convert to Christianity or argue for it. Maybe the average Saudi would treat a drunk better than a convert to Christianity, I don't know (like how in Afghanistan they declared Abdul Rahman who converted to Christianity legally insane, because they literally cannot understand any other reason why someone would leave Islam, and it also saved the already struggling Afghan government the bad international press of executing him, as the Shari'a demands that they do), but regardless it is still something that happens.

Muslims can be very odd about this topic. There are Christians among basically every people, even those who are famous for being 100% Muslim like in Saudi Arabia or Somalia, yet it is considered to be unbelievable that one of them would be on the internet right now, for some reason. He must be lying or misrepresenting himself because Saudis can't really be Christian, I guess? They were long before Islam existed.

From the famous Brother Rachid show (himself a Moroccan convert to Christianity), we have an interview with a Saudi convert to Christianity (all in Arabic; I hope you all know Allah's favorite language):

(interview begins ~ 2:50)

I guess this is unbelievable, too. The man is an actor, right? Everyone is acting (unless they're Muslim; no Muslim ever pretends to be Muslim for cultural/social/legal reasons).

 

[Not David]

Probably Saudi's propaganda to show how holy they are with their 100% Muslim population.

 

[notreligus]

I believe that we Christians fail to communicate with Muslims because we don't understand what is really behind their animosity toward Jews and Christians. Do you recall Abraham's first son, Ishmael? Ishmael was sent away but not condemned. The Scriptures tell us that the descendants of Ishmael would be blessed, and they have been. Muslims don't see themselves as God's step-children and they don't see themselves as inferior to the Jews/Israel. But they do know that Jews claim to be God's chosen and they know that Christians agree. They resent this.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. ESV

What did Paul, a Jew, tell us? He said the promises made to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Thus the promises were fulfilled by a particular Person and not a people. In Christ neither Jew nor Gentile have a superior position with God Almighty. We should be telling Muslims that they can be joint heirs with Christ by faith in Christ's obedience and finished work. We are wrong to view them as inferiors, and Christ died that all might be able to be reconciled back to God Almighty. Reconciliation was His mission. In Christ One New Man was created.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Here's my tips on discussing Christianity with Muslims...

1.) Don't be scared of them. They are beautiful, awesome, people...save for the terrorists.
2.) Understand that the thing they are likely going to want to discuss the most is the concept of the Trinity and how we can say that they are one God. I use an illustration of a game die. I hold it in my hand and say, I hold 6 dice in my hand. They insist I only hold one. I continue to reiterate that I hold 6 dice in my hand. They continue to say I hold one. I then show them the 6 sides and explain just like this dice has 6 distinct sides, each serving its own purpose and meaning...so God has 3 persons, each serving His own purpose and meaning.
3.) If you are lucky enough to be invited to a house....prepare to leave 15 pounds heavier than when you got there.

Source: I was a Muslim for 5 years.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

I believe that we Christians fail to communicate with Muslims because we don't understand what is really behind their animosity toward Jews and Christians. Do you recall Abraham's first son, Ishmael? Ishmael was sent away but not condemned. The Scriptures tell us that the descendants of Ishmael would be blessed, and they have been. Muslims don't see themselves as God's step-children and they don't see themselves as inferior to the Jews/Israel. But they do know that Jews claim to be God's chosen and they know that Christians agree. They resent this.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. ESV

What did Paul, a Jew, tell us? He said the promises made to Abraham were fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Thus the promises were fulfilled by a particular Person and not a people. In Christ neither Jew nor Gentile have a superior position with God Almighty. We should be telling Muslims that they can be joint heirs with Christ by faith in Christ's obedience and finished work. We are wrong to view them as inferiors, and Christ died that all might be able to be reconciled back to God Almighty. Reconciliation was His mission. In Christ One New Man was created.

Actually, real Muslims love Christians and Jews as brothers. They just hate what some do to them...just like we hate what some Muslims do to Christians and Jews...and believe me, they hate it much more. The one and only time I have seen a Muslim tell another who professes Islam that they are not a true Muslim (which is a sin if the person does end up being Muslim and entering Jannah when they die) is when referring to terrorists.

 

[Gregory95]

I can go as in depth as you wish as I have studied for a very long time, I am not a novice at this. No offense is meant it is just I do understand Islam at its fundamental roots. I find the average Muslim just like the average Christian does not have an in depth understanding of what they say they believe in. It's a pity really to trust your everlasting soul to something you do not fully understand. It's sort of like going into battle and not knowing if your weapon is even loaded.

would you care to have a discussion on the faith of Mohammed , how to reach those of his faith and on the Quran vs Bible friend?

 

[Dialogues]

Hi Gryphon,

Thanks for the information on peace/jihad, abrogation and taqiyya. However, I beg to differ on all three.

[1] There is "Righteous Pacifisim" in the Qur'an which is reinforced by a hadith. The pacifist way adopted by the righteous son of Adam a.s. is related:

[5:27-8] ‘‘And relate to them truly the story of the two sons of Adam, when they each offered an offering, and it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. The latter said, ‘I will surely kill thee.’ The former replied, ‘Allah accepts only from the righteous. If thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I am not going to stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee. I do fear Allah, the Lord of the universe."

The incident is included in the Qur'an for a very good reason, as it lends support to adopting a pacifist stance as a righteous way in some circumstances, which do arise from time to time, as they arose in the past, have arisen in our time, and will probably arise in the future, as the following hadith affirms:

"Abu Musa al-Ashari reported: The Messenger of Allah s.a. said, “Verily, right before the Hour there will be a tribulation like pieces of the dark night in which a man may be a believer in the morning and an unbeliever by evening, or he may be a believer in the evening and an unbeliever by morning. He who sits down during it will be better than he who rises up, and he who walks during it will be better than he who runs. So break your bows, cut your bowstrings, and strike your swords against the rock. If someone comes to kill you, then be like the better of the two sons of Adam." (5:28) [Abu Dawud, 4259]

Whilst in Mecca, Abdur Rahman bin Auf r.a. and a few other Companions r.a. are reported to have requested the Prophet Muhammad s.a. to permit them to fight back against the oppressive Qur'aish. The Prophet s.a. is reported to have said,

"I have been commanded to pardon. Fight not therefore" [Sunan un-Nasa'i Kitabul Jihad].

Whilst I would love to show that you have likewise been misled on the issue of abrogation and taqiyya, a victim of false information, I will leave that for now, and remaining in the same subject, would suggest reading my response to David Wood's polemics on Jihad before commenting further:

Pacifism & Jihad - Inviting People to God

Thanks.

 

[researchguy]

 

[researchguy]

Risale English Risale-i Nur | Said Nursi | The Words Risale-i Nur Collection
Risale-i Nur

 

[researchguy]

what is the death toll of civilians killed in 9/11 and all other terror attacks on american soil combined compared to the number of civilians killed in afghanistan in carpet bombing after 9/11? (hint, Civilian casualties in the war in Afghanistan (2001–present) - Wikipedia

 

[researchguy]

also, what is the number of palestinians killed by israeli occupation backed by israeli lobbying owning the us evangelical base and all us politicians except bernie sanders (a jew, lol) in the hopes that all jews migrate to israel (often hoping donald trump increase anti semitism so that they all go) so that theyh get attack by the antichrist muslims and convert to christianity before jesus comes? you want to talk about killing? the verses of violence in the quran and hadeeth were at a time when the muslims were either persecuted or on the run and settled in a new land and were still having to fight for their lives.

 

[Erik Nelson]

I believe knowing Islamic and Christian history and having experience around Muslims my whole life has certainly brought me an advantage in my many discussions I’ve had with Muslims. I still try to read, understand, and memorize the Quran as best as I can. I’ve had discussions with Muslim historians and Sheikhs myself, to this day God has still granted me the upper hand in every single argument they’ve put forth.

Chronology is crucial ?

From 615-628 AD, Muhammad and the Muslims were allies of the Christian king of Abyssinia, who protected some of their number as refugees, in his realm, from the persecutions of Mecca [1].

In 628 AD, the Muslims, still in exile in Medina, defeated pagan & Jewish tribes and made a peace treaty with Mecca [2]. The Muslim refugees returned, to Medina, from Abyssinia. All the Surahs of the Quran up to this time are favorable to Christians [3]. Muhammad was poisoned by a Jewish widow.

Soon after this time, Muhammad sent delegations to the Byzantines, Persians and other world leaders, allowing them to accept Islam. Byzantine emperor Heraclius did not mistreat the Islamic ambassadors, and did give them an audience, but apparently did not accept their call to convert.

In 630 AD, evidently after Muhammad had recovered from poisoning, the Muslims conquered Mecca, removed all idols from the Kaaba, united Arabia, and marched against Tabuk in extreme NW Arabia, against a falsely rumored Byzantine invasion. The Muslims did force Christian communities there to submit and pay the tax.

Only Surahs 5,9,110 date to this final phase of Muhammad's ministry on earth (628-632 AD). However, as the last verses of the Quran, they take precedence over previous earlier verses (if they conflict). Insofar as Muhammad, during his final few years on earth, began calling for global conversion, the ultimate Quranic references to Christianity may no longer be as positive as they had been over the previous 20 years.

And, if so, they "abrogate" any earlier verses with which they conflict ?

[1] Muslim tradition on Heraclius' response to Muhammad's invitation

[2] The Timeline of Muhammad - WikiIslam​

[3] Chronological Order of the Quran | CARM.org

 

[DennisTate]

Before the average Christian starts a conversation about the religious aspects of Islam I believe there are a few things they need to understand.

1st. Research the meaning of Abrogation as it pertains to Islam. Naskh (نسخ) is an Arabic word usually translated as "abrogation"; It is a term used in Islamic legal exegesis for seemingly contradictory material within, or between, the two primary sources of Islamic law: the Quran and the Sunna. But it is so much more and you need to toughly understand that so look up Abrogation in Islam from many sources and not just Islamic ones.

2nd. Research and understand the meaning of the Terms Kitman and Taqiya as they pertain to Islam.

In Islam, Taqiya or taqiyya is a precautionary dissimulation or denial of religious belief and practice in the face of persecution. Another term for this concept, kitmān, has a more specific meaning of dissimulation by silence or omission. This practice is emphasized in Shia Islam whereby adherents are permitted to conceal their religion when under threat of persecution or compulsion. However, it is also permitted in Sunni Islam under certain circumstances.

The following is but a tiny example!

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should generally be truthful to each other, unless the purpose of lying is to "smooth over differences" or "gain the upper-hand over an enemy"
There are several forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, the best known being taqiyya (the Shia name). These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam - in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.

Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)

Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..."

So you need to study Islam and its foundations before attempting an honest conversation so you will understand when you are being deceived by permission of Islams texts. Be wise my friends and educate yourselves in the traps of Islam first.

Good post!

I am of the belief that there is an ancient Islamic prediction that could alter the relationship between Muslims, Jews, Christians and pretty much all other faiths as well as even Atheists.

Book 005, Number 2208:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour will not come before wealth becomes abundant and overflowing, so much so that a man takes Zakat out of his property and cannot find anyone to accept it from him and till the land of Arabia becomes meadows and rivers.
SAHIH MUSLIM, BOOK 25: The Book on General Behaviour (Kitab Al-Adab)

ISLAM IN SCIENCE/BIBLE/HISTORY:


Did you know that there is an Islamic prophecy that the Islamic desert regions would be turned green in the latter days?????

This topic is of special interest to me because I live about a hundred miles from the Bay of Fundy. I live five kms from the ocean on the eastern part of Nova Scotia. In my area the difference between low tide to high tide is about one meter! The land form of the Bay of Fundy has a funnelling effect on tidal waters and so parts of the Fundy have a difference of fifteen to seventeen meters between low to high tide!

The question on my mind would be if ocean levels were to rise about thirty centimeters in my part of Nova Scotia, would they rise by four or five meters along parts of the Fundy????

There are 143,000 acres of farmland taken back from the Fundy by dikes that are probably in the position of the proverbial canary in a coal mine in relation to rising ocean levels!

Every cubic meter of H2O added to the water table of nations in the Middle EAst will NOT be on top of New Orleans, Florida, Holland, Bangladesh or those 143,000 acres along the Fundy!!!!!

I felt a huge sense of relief when I first heard about The Sahara Forest Project!


Sahara Forest Project
Sahara Forest Project
April 19

Sahara Forest Project takes what we have a enough of to create what we need more of, using CO2, salt water, sunlight and arid areas, to produce energy, fresh water, vegetation and food.

 

[JosephZ]

I'm currently a missionary serving in the predominantly Muslim villages in Davao City and the predominantly Muslim areas in and around the Sulu Archipelago in the southern Philippines. I have a lot of experience in having discussions with Muslims about not only Islam, but also my own faith. My knowledge of Islam goes back to the 1980's while in the Military. It was at that time that I had to take courses in Islamic Studies before I was assigned to an Islamic country. I have a rather thorough understanding of Islam and have read the Qur'an in its entirety many times over since the 80's and when time permits I still take some courses online to continue to increase my knowledge of Islam.

Unlike many in the west, my education of Islam didn't begin with the events of 9/11 and what has followed. It comes from decades of study along with living and working among Muslims in different parts of the world. I know the difference between what true Islam teaches and what perverted sects extremists follow and anti-Islamic propagandists push on non-Muslims who have little to no knowledge of Islam. I also know that most Muslims are honest, compassionate, and caring people just as most Christians are.

With that being said, there's a tremendous amount of misinformation in this thread about abrogation, taqiyya, jihad, and even what the Qur'an says on these subjects.

My advice for Christians who have a heart for Muslims and want to share their faith with them or have the desire to have discussions with Muslims about Islam is to first get to know some Muslims in your community and learn from them. Be a good listener and let your curiosity drive the direction of your conversation with them.

There is no substitute to talking to real Muslims when it comes to learning about Islam and what they believe. If you are not aware of any Muslims in your community go online and find the nearest mosque or Islamic center. Go to a mosque in your area and ask the imam there to explain things like abrogation, taqiyya, and jihad. I can assure you the answers you get concerning these topics will be nothing like the videos and articles shared in this thread describe them. And no, it will not be because the Muslim you talk to will be practicing taqiyya or will be trying to intentionally deceive you. Lying is forbidden in Islam, is considered to be one of the greatest sins, and leads to condemnation.

When discussing Islam with a Muslim, don’t criticize their religion, Muslims, or Muhammad. Your aim should never be to condemn, insult, or embarrass Muslims, but to love, respect, and accept them. A Christian is a representative of Jesus Christ and we should respect a Muslim's opinions and ways of believing even if we may disagree with them.

The second best option for those who want to discuss religion with Muslims is to study Islam on their own. As a Christian missionary working in the Muslim community I highly recommend this free online course: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

I also recommend reading the book "A Muslim and a Christian in Dialogue" by David Shenk and Badru D. Kateregga. A few reviews of this book can be found at this link: A Muslim and a Christian in Dialogue book by David Shenk It can be purchased online, or if you register for the course I mentioned above, you can access it for free.

I Hope this will be helpful.

 

[Not David]

I'm currently a missionary serving in the predominantly Muslim villages in Davao City and the predominantly Muslim areas in and around the Sulu Archipelago in the southern Philippines. I have a lot of experience in having discussions with Muslims about not only Islam, but also my own faith. My knowledge of Islam goes back to the 1980's while in the Military. It was at that time that I had to take courses in Islamic Studies before I was assigned to an Islamic country. I have a rather thorough understanding of Islam and have read the Qur'an in its entirety many times over since the 80's and when time permits I still take some courses online to continue to increase my knowledge of Islam.

Unlike many in the west, my education of Islam didn't begin with the events of 9/11 and what has followed. It comes from decades of study along with living and working among Muslims in different parts of the world. I know the difference between what true Islam teaches and what perverted sects extremists follow and anti-Islamic propagandists push on non-Muslims who have little to no knowledge of Islam. I also know that most Muslims are honest, compassionate, and caring people just as most Christians are.

With that being said, there's a tremendous amount of misinformation in this thread about abrogation, taqiyya, jihad, and even what the Qur'an says on these subjects.

My advice for Christians who have a heart for Muslims and want to share their faith with them or have the desire to have discussions with Muslims about Islam is to first get to know some Muslims in your community and learn from them. Be a good listener and let your curiosity drive the direction of your conversation with them.

There is no substitute to talking to real Muslims when it comes to learning about Islam and what they believe. If you are not aware of any Muslims in your community go online and find the nearest mosque or Islamic center. Go to a mosque in your area and ask the imam there to explain things like abrogation, taqiyya, and jihad. I can assure you the answers you get concerning these topics will be nothing like the videos and articles shared in this thread describe them. And no, it will not be because the Muslim you talk to will be practicing taqiyya or will be trying to intentionally deceive you. Lying is forbidden in Islam, is considered to be one of the greatest sins, and leads to condemnation.

When discussing Islam with a Muslim, don’t criticize their religion, Muslims, or Muhammad. Your aim should never be to condemn, insult, or embarrass Muslims, but to love, respect, and accept them. A Christian is a representative of Jesus Christ and we should respect a Muslim's opinions and ways of believing even if we may disagree with them.

The second best option for those who want to discuss religion with Muslims is to study Islam on their own. As a Christian missionary working in the Muslim community I highly recommend this free online course: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

I also recommend reading the book "A Muslim and a Christian in Dialogue" by David Shenk and Badru D. Kateregga. A few reviews of this book can be found at this link: A Muslim and a Christian in Dialogue book by David Shenk It can be purchased online, or if you register for the course I mentioned above, you can access it for free.

I Hope this will be helpful.

Does @Al Masihi count as helpful information?

 

[DamianWarS]

I believe knowing Islamic and Christian history and having experience around Muslims my whole life has certainly brought me an advantage in my many discussions I’ve had with Muslims. I still try to read, understand, and memorize the Quran as best as I can. I’ve had discussions with Muslim historians and Sheikhs myself, to this day God has still granted me the upper hand in every single argument they’ve put forth.

in your experience does this upper hand help these people come closer to Christ?