Discussion on Hell: my biggest stumbling block

[truthseeker32]

TS - did you read the works I referenced? If this bothers you this much, I'd think you'd be motivated to see what Lewis had to say. (and for those that think that all Orthodox truth must be expressed only by Orthodox Christians, yes, it IS in line with Orthodox theology, so it really doesn't matter that he wasn't an Orthodox Christian in saying it.)

It seems like you're denying the will of a person who. Will. Not. Repent. What about the guy who still, after aeons, would derive pleasure from pulling the wings off flies with a self-satisfied smile and that sickness in his soul that he refuses to let go of, who is still the center of his own universe and would accept heaven only on his own conditions (of which that would be the first - that he would be god unto himself)? He's causing he'll for himself, and refuses to stop.

Haven't you read about the dwarves in Lewis's "The Last Battle", who refused to see heaven, even though it was right there and nobody was "punishing" them?

I did read the works you mentioned, Rus. Thank you.

The only kind of Hell I could believe in is that occupied by those who will not repent. I suppose my issue is that I don't think there exists any human that would eternally refuse to repent unless they were mentally ill to the point where they couldn't help it, but if they couldn't help it should they be punished for something outside of their control?

 

[Basil the Great]

This is a most difficult subject and I do appreciate your concern, OP, as I formerly was also greatly concerned about the teaching of eternal punishment. I guess I finally came to the point where we just cannot know for certain what will happen, so let's just leave it in God's hands. Having said that, however, there still is the issue of the Athanasian Creed. Based on my research, there seems to be some difference of opinoin re: Orthodoxy's acceptance of said creed, though apparently it is rarely, if ever, used in worship. (I think I read somewhere that the Russian Church might use it?) However, the RCC most certainly accepts said creed and I would assume uses it on occasion anyway. The bottom line is that the Athanasian Creed is very clear and I do not know how anyone who professes said creed can believe in universalism. Even worse, the Athanasian Creed, in effect, says that those who do not believe in eternal punishment will be lost themselves.

Myself, I am now undecided on the subject. However, I have seen enough evil in this world to believe that eternal punishment is at least a possibility. However, I cannot bring myself to profess the Athanasian Creed, for I am uncertain re: the eternity of Hell and certainly do not believe that one is necessarily lost if one denies the eternity of Hell.

 

[Zoness]

I don't understand the concept of an eternal hell.

I get that rejecting God's love lands you eternal punishment (which seems a bit ironic to me) but what exactly is that rejection? A rejection of the Christian religion? A rejection of Orthodox, Catholicism or Protestantism? (dependent on sect viewpoint) An immoral life or a struggle with one particular sin?

Additionally the concept of hell from a Christian [Protestant, as I was mostly raised] perspective to me implies that God rather does intentionally send one to a place of literal suffering for not adhering to belief set strictly or living a strictly enough tuned life. I'm not sure how the Orthodox view varies but I don't understand the idea of a loving God torturing what is basically most of humanity that has ever existed, assuming you take a fairly hardline stance on it.

 

[rusmeister]

I did read the works you mentioned, Rus. Thank you.

The only kind of Hell I could believe in is that occupied by those who will not repent. I suppose my issue is that I don't think there exists any human that would eternally refuse to repent unless they were mentally ill to the point where they couldn't help it, but if they couldn't help it should they be punished for something outside of their control?

Basil said it well enough. Trust God to do whatever can be done for them.

I think the first hint of thinking that goes off the rails is speaking of "mental illness". It seems to me that you are building up a non-existent case, first of all in that if a person REALLY has no conscious will in what he does and no control, it's not him. God will take care of him. But the essence of hell is self-will, and determination is a thing that nearly all of us CAN help. Pretty much all of us can choose to say, "I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!", if only we choose to will to believe, even if we have no strength or external conviction (ie, the evidence seems against it to our limited minds).
But refusing to is ALSO a choice, a matter of will, and the ghosts described in "The Great Divorce" provide a sampling of the ways people really do reject the truth and salvation.

 

[rusmeister]

This is a most difficult subject and I do appreciate your concern, OP, as I formerly was also greatly concerned about the teaching of eternal punishment. I guess I finally came to the point where we just cannot know for certain what will happen, so let's just leave it in God's hands. Having said that, however, there still is the issue of the Athanasian Creed. Based on my research, there seems to be some difference of opinoin re: Orthodoxy's acceptance of said creed, though apparently it is rarely, if ever, used in worship. (I think I read somewhere that the Russian Church might use it?) However, the RCC most certainly accepts said creed and I would assume uses it on occasion anyway. The bottom line is that the Athanasian Creed is very clear and I do not know how anyone who professes said creed can believe in universalism. Even worse, the Athanasian Creed, in effect, says that those who do not believe in eternal punishment will be lost themselves.

Myself, I am now undecided on the subject. However, I have seen enough evil in this world to believe that eternal punishment is at least a possibility. However, I cannot bring myself to profess the Athanasian Creed, for I am uncertain re: the eternity of Hell and certainly do not believe that one is necessarily lost if one denies the eternity of Hell.

FTR Basil, we have just one Creed. The other ones either became "null and void" or were never accepted. The Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed. Ask for it by name.
So let the more learned correct me, but I don't think you can reference the Athanasian Creed in regards to Orthodox theology, because we just plain don't use it, though certainly there are many correct things in it. (Given that this is the Orthodox sub-forum, and that the topic is Orthodox understandings...)

 

[rusmeister]

I don't understand the concept of an eternal hell.

I get that rejecting God's love lands you eternal punishment (which seems a bit ironic to me) but what exactly is that rejection? A rejection of the Christian religion? A rejection of Orthodox, Catholicism or Protestantism? (dependent on sect viewpoint) An immoral life or a struggle with one particular sin?

Additionally the concept of hell from a Christian [Protestant, as I was mostly raised] perspective to me implies that God rather does intentionally send one to a place of literal suffering for not adhering to belief set strictly or living a strictly enough tuned life. I'm not sure how the Orthodox view varies but I don't understand the idea of a loving God torturing what is basically most of humanity that has ever existed, assuming you take a fairly hardline stance on it.

We don't see it as punishment at all, Zoness. You're dragging in Western understandings which are N/A in Eastern Orthodoxy.

We reject the Protestant ideas, I myself was raised Baptist and left the Baptists in part for this very reason, the conclusion of an unloving God. We reject the idea of sin as "crime and punishment". It is much more "illness and healing".

We see us as having passions, sins we are sometimes unwilling to let go of. We believe in free will, that we are responsible for our actions, our decisions matter, and that God has made us, literally "free agents".

The trouble is, if we are free to choose what is good, we must also be free to choose what is bad, or it is not freedom. We believe that a great many people of all stripes will be saved. Being Orthodox is no free ticket. It just gives you the right ship and right guidance. But you are always free to jump off the ship, if you insist on it.

So God is a Physician as much as a Judge, and desires our healing. Again, the dwarves in "The Last Battle" are a great illustration of exactly how one can refuse heaven right on the doorstep.

 

[Lukaris]

God will not reject anyone who does good:

John 5:28-30

New King James Version (NKJV)

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


So we have our free will & there is much confusion in the world today so the Lord will take this into consideration & as opposed to when He directly appeared in human flesh before men:

John 15:22-24

New King James Version (NKJV)

22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

I posted this over in OBOB, but I wanted to get an Orthodox perspective on these questions as well.

I would not call myself a universalist, but I do believe I am much more open to the idea that everyone, or at least most people, will be saved. However, I want to get the other side's perspective on this issue so I thought I would bring it here for discussion. I will start it off with some questions for those who would like to participate.

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

Ultimately, no one can answer this. Only God. We can look at the guidelines that have been set but ultimately God alone is the judge.

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

We don't know that it is. Once again, only God knows. We can even comprehend eternity with our human understanding.

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?
Not sure I understand the question but it seems to me you're asking for a human answer to a God directed question.

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

Some people call joy and pleasure hurting others and themselves. Can we compare "feeling" in our human understanding to what God is once we leave this pseudo-physical realm? I say pseudo because physically reality does not exist in the way we think it does. Quantum mechanics has proven this.

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

What is goodness? God transcends our vocabulary words. Is it our place to ask how something is "justified" when trying to comprehend God?

Feel free to answer any of the above. I look forward to reading your answers.

 

[InnerPhyre]

if someone were to relent, give in and accept God's love, would the torment cease and God's presence become bliss like what the righteous experience?

Yes but it would be more than an intellectual decision. It would require a change of the person who would move from hatred and selfishness to love and humility, which is more difficult than giving one's rational assent to the fact that God loves him/her.

 

[InnerPhyre]

I posted this over in OBOB, but I wanted to get an Orthodox perspective on these questions as well.

I would not call myself a universalist, but I do believe I am much more open to the idea that everyone, or at least most people, will be saved. However, I want to get the other side's perspective on this issue so I thought I would bring it here for discussion. I will start it off with some questions for those who would like to participate.

1. What must a person do to experience Hell?

Fail to love and to allow the love of God to transfigure their lives.

2. Why must Hell be permanent?

Hell is the presence of God, who is permanent. The experience of God's presence as hell does not need to be permanent.

3. Why doesn't God allow those who desire it annihilation?

Because He loves us and does not wish for His creation to perish. What father would give his son a blessing to commit suicide rather than help him to see that his life has value?

4. Do you think it is possible to experience joy and pleasure in Hell?

When the apostles saw Christ transfigured, what could they focus on other than the presence of the Divine that had been revealed to them? What pleasure could they experience when God has become all and in all and yet they reject Him? In the age to come, God will be the sole source of joy and pleasure for all.

5. How is the eternal suffering experienced by those in Hell justified in light of God's goodness?

Eternal suffering is the choice of the sinner who continually chooses it. God does not wish for us to suffer unless that suffering in some way leads to our salvation or the salvation of others. St. Gregory of Nyssa describes the pain of hell as the weight of carnality that holds the person down like a collapsed building. The soul is inexorably drawn to God, but the soul clings to carnality and is torn like a person being dragged out from under a collapsed building. The soul seeks its joy from a source that no longer exists. It wants to exalt itself but is faced with the immediate reality that the God who created the universe continually empties himself. He wants to revel in the carnal pleasures that it can no longer experience. The soul is deprived it its sources of false joy and is left with disordered and seeking something it cannot have instead of allowing God's love to transform and transfigure it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I did read the works you mentioned, Rus. Thank you.

The only kind of Hell I could believe in is that occupied by those who will not repent. I suppose my issue is that I don't think there exists any human that would eternally refuse to repent unless they were mentally ill to the point where they couldn't help it, but if they couldn't help it should they be punished for something outside of their control?

well, you are right, hell is for those who do not repent. and that's okay that you don't understand this. in Orthodoxy it is okay to believe and hope for universalism (even Elder Paisios prayed for the devil to repent). what you may not believe in is that it's a must that it will happen, because this denies free will of man. so your job is to pray that you see everyone at God's right hand, and let Him take care of the rest.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't understand the concept of an eternal hell.

I get that rejecting God's love lands you eternal punishment (which seems a bit ironic to me) but what exactly is that rejection? A rejection of the Christian religion? A rejection of Orthodox, Catholicism or Protestantism? (dependent on sect viewpoint) An immoral life or a struggle with one particular sin?

Additionally the concept of hell from a Christian [Protestant, as I was mostly raised] perspective to me implies that God rather does intentionally send one to a place of literal suffering for not adhering to belief set strictly or living a strictly enough tuned life. I'm not sure how the Orthodox view varies but I don't understand the idea of a loving God torturing what is basically most of humanity that has ever existed, assuming you take a fairly hardline stance on it.

the rejection is knowing the God who loves you and refusing to follow Him. yeah, God is the Christian God as revealed in His Church, but for some, we admit, coming to that knowledge could happen on Judgment Day. some folks who are atheists, pagans, and satanists are gonna find that they were actually Christians all along, whereas many who wore massive Crosses around their neck wanted nothing to do with Christ. in Orthodoxy, when we deal with this kinda stuff, we usually just shrug and say we don't know, because we don't. He does, and He loves everything He created.

as for your second point, yeah, most of us agree. hell is man's rejection of God, not God's rejection of man. so those in hell choose it.

 

[InnerPhyre]

An important distinction in all of this (someone may have pointed this out previously in the thread. I didn't read all 6 pages) is that the Orthodox view of sin is sickness and disorder. We do not hold the juridical view that sin is transgression of the law that requires God's justice to be satisfied by eternal punishment for no reason other than the satisfaction of that justice.

If sin is lawbreaking, the response that you tend to feel is the need to punish and a desire for justice above all (God becomes Batman).

If sin is sickness, the response that you tend to feel is mercy, compassion, and a desire to heal. But not all will take the medicine and it cannot be force fed. The Divine Physician will not stop offering the medicine, however.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah and hell is more like the place where the Physician offers the medicine to the ill, and they refuse it, and the more He offers the more annoyed they get because they think they are better off without His help.

 

[truthseeker32]

I suppose the more specific question I am contemplating as of now is whether or not man can choose other than what he thinks is good. I am reminded of this quote: “. . .the young man who rings the bell at the brothel is unconsciously looking for God.” The idea behind this quote seems to be that, most often, when a human being chooses something they see it as what is good. It is only when they are convinced that the cathedral and the liturgy are superior goods that they will resist the brothel's carnal pleasures.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I suppose the more specific question I am contemplating as of now is whether or not man can choose other than what he thinks is good. I am reminded of this quote: “. . .the young man who rings the bell at the brothel is unconsciously looking for God.” The idea behind this quote seems to be that, most often, when a human being chooses something they see it as what is good. It is only when they are convinced that the cathedral and the liturgy are superior goods that they will resist the brothel's carnal pleasures.

right, but if we truly believe in free will, there must be a possibility that someone can forever try to fill the God shaped void in himself with everything other than God, and just stubbornly reject Him forever. that must be a possbibility no matter how remote we see it.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Dwelling on "well what if's" isn't particularly helpful in this regard (in my opinion) because it tends to lead us to the point where we try to micro-manage the cosmos inside our heads, rather than understanding that God's love and mercy are boundless, and He can and will tend to the cosmos as He sees fit. Don't allow yourself to stress about all of this. God loves you and wants you to fulfill the purpose that you were created for...to become by Grace what He is by nature.

 

[truthseeker32]

right, but if we truly believe in free will, there must be a possibility that someone can forever try to fill the God shaped void in himself with everything other than God, and just stubbornly reject Him forever. that must be a possbibility no matter how remote we see it.

I would question whether the person continually trying to fill the God shaped void with ungodly things is actually free, whether he actually still has the capacity to choose God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

My priest reminds me sometimes that we DON'T want to despair, for despair is a SIN. The best thing we can do is, as others have said, focus on Christ as the Divine Physician, the Eucharist as the Medicine of Immortality as St. Ignatius tells us, to look at Confession as the removal of puss and shrapenel from our wounds, and the Walk with Christ as a journey of pure hope and joy. Orthodoxy can be frustrating for some because people like a "system" of salvation. That's why Calvinism can be intoxicating for a few. It is systematic. The Catholic Church, thanks to scholasticism and legalism, is also quite systematic. Orthodoxy has no "system," just drawing near and trusting in the physician of life.....Despair is a sin, and we just can't "go there!"

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would question whether the person continually trying to fill the God shaped void with ungodly things is actually free, whether he actually still has the capacity to choose God.

well, they are free in that they could fill that void with God at anytime. God always offers us the way out, He always offers Himself, but He never forces Himself. if they are enslaved, they are enlaved to sin because they would rather be enslaved to the devil than enslaved to God, which is true freedom.

Fr Tryphon offers some thoughts on the matter:

Eternity - The Morning Offering - Ancient Faith Radio