Discuss this quote

[elman]

God is able, but not willing, and He created evil for a purpose. [/I]

God did not create evil. God is good all the time. God created man capable of loving others. When man did not love others, evil was created.

 

[chilehed]

...God could tell a Muslim suicide attacker that he won’t go to heaven if he blows himself up. This way, he could prevent evil without changing the fact that humans have free will. Or, even better, he could tell the followers of ALL wrong religions that they are delusioned. Why doesn't he do this?...

And exactly how do you propose he intervene into people's lives so aggressively that they're forced to immediately abandon everything they believe in and are attached to, and bind themselves to him regardless of whether or not they want to, and yet at the same time leave their free will intact?

 

[GrayAngel]

If God created evil then He is ultimately responsible for all evil in the world - even the evil of Satan. In fact, if God is the Creator of evil, then He is Himself evil. However, the Bible no where says that God is the author of evil. He creates disasters and causes catastrophes, which older versions of the BIble call "evil," but He is in no way responsible for the moral evil that we do. If He were, we would be perfectly right in laying the blame for our evil at His feet.

Selah.

God did not create evil. God is good all the time. God created man capable of loving others. When man did not love others, evil was created.

I like how you reply to my well thought out and Biblically supported post with single paragraphs of personal opinion.

God created everything. God knew everything before creation. God created Satan, knowing he would cause a third of the angels to rebel, and then also dragging humanity into a similar situation. God was neither ignorant of what would take place, nor was He too weak to prevent it. Evil came into the world because God wanted it to.

Try reading Exodus, and count the number of times scripture says that the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Then read Romans 9:17, when Paul states God's purpose for raising up the Pharaoh.

And when you're done with that, think about this. God says that He has plans for His children, plans that are only for our good. If God does nothing to stop evil, and if evil is outside of His realm of control, then what use are His plans to us?

So you say that God doesn’t prevent evil because it serves a purpose? The problem is, a lot of evil doesn’t come from malicious intentions or pure sadism (although that’s still possible), but from a lack of communication or misinformation. For example, in North Korea, political dissidents get arrested, tortured and murdered on a daily basis, not because North Koreans are evil, but because they honestly believe that, in order to protect their “great” country from savagery and chaos, they have to defend it by any means necessary. Why doesn’t God at least prevent this evil? North Korea doesn’t even have access to the bible, so without his divine intervention, they have almost no way of finding Christ. Why doesn’t God help them, if he is both able, and willing to prevent evil?

It doesn't matter what the intentions are of these people. If they think they're doing something good, but it's really evil, they're still evil. Like the say: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

What matters is what God's purpose is. God wrote evil into our history because He had something good in mind, like when Joseph (OT Joseph, not the stepfather of Jesus) was sold into slavery by his brothers. The brothers didn't do this because they loved Joseph. But scripture tells us that God intended for this to happen for good.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

We do not always have the pleasure of seeing the good that God has planned, but we don't have to. We trust God, knowing the kind of God He is. We are like ignorant children, and He is our patient Father. We don't understand, but we obey anyway.

 

[elman]

I like how you reply to my well thought out and Biblically supported post with single paragraphs of personal opinion.

God created everything. God knew everything before creation. God created Satan, knowing he would cause a third of the angels to rebel, and then also dragging humanity into a similar situation. God was neither ignorant of what would take place, nor was He too weak to prevent it. Evil came into the world because God wanted it to.

Try reading Exodus, and count the number of times scripture says that the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Then read Romans 9:17, when Paul states God's purpose for raising up the Pharaoh.

And when you're done with that, think about this. God says that He has plans for His children, plans that are only for our good. If God does nothing to stop evil, and if evil is outside of His realm of control, then what use are His plans to us?



It doesn't matter what the intentions are of these people. If they think they're doing something good, but it's really evil, they're still evil. Like the say: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

What matters is what God's purpose is. God wrote evil into our history because He had something good in mind, like when Joseph (OT Joseph, not the stepfather of Jesus) was sold into slavery by his brothers. The brothers didn't do this because they loved Joseph. But scripture tells us that God intended for this to happen for good.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

We do not always have the pleasure of seeing the good that God has planned, but we don't have to. We trust God, knowing the kind of God He is. We are like ignorant children, and He is our patient Father. We don't understand, but we obey anyway.

I don't agree with you. Evil is not the will of God and therefore evil did not come into the world because God wanted it to come in to the world. I believe God wanted us to be able to love others and respond to His love with love. That requires that we be given the ability to not love God or others. Evil is that failure to love others.

 

[DCJazz]

I would really like to know what you think about this quote, which, by the way, comes from Epicurus. Personally, I like it, as it demonstrates quite well some of the problems that I see in the Christian belief, but if you can somehow show me that this quote is wrong,then so be it.

Well, to prevent/do away with all evil, he'd have to kill every single human being on Earth. But because of His love and mercy, we're given a chance to live forever through Christ, to be free from sin/evil.

So it's not that He's not willing nor able... or any combination of the two... but He wants us to live with Him forever. To be spared the inevitable wages of sin.

The problem with your quote is that it's far too simple.

 

[aiki]

I like how you reply to my well thought out and Biblically supported post with single paragraphs of personal opinion.

It isn't merely my "opinion." Greater philosophers and bible scholars than I have made the same observations. It is these thoughtful men that I paraphrase in my comments to you.

God created everything. God knew everything before creation. God created Satan, knowing he would cause a third of the angels to rebel, and then also dragging humanity into a similar situation. God was neither ignorant of what would take place, nor was He too weak to prevent it. Evil came into the world because God wanted it to.

Then God is evil. This is the obvious conclusion to your line of thinking. You cannot reasonably reconcile God wanting to create evil with those verses in Scripture that declare His holiness and righteousness. You would make God the ultimate Source of evil. I don't think the Bible supports you in this.

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Try reading Exodus, and count the number of times scripture says that the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Then read Romans 9:17, when Paul states God's purpose for raising up the Pharaoh.

What makes you think I haven't read of God hardening Pharoah's heart and the comments Paul makes about it? Just because I haven't come to the same conclusions as you about the import of these passages doesn't mean I am ignorant of them. In fact, I have read and wrestled with their meaning quite a bit.

And when you're done with that, think about this. God says that He has plans for His children, plans that are only for our good.

Actually, this verse was given explicitly and solely to the Israelites. You take it very much out context when you suggest it may be applied to New Testament Christians. I do believe God has our best interests at heart, but using the verse in Jeremiah to make a case for this view does violence to Scripture.

If God does nothing to stop evil, and if evil is outside of His realm of control, then what use are His plans to us?

I don't think I ever suggested God was unable to stop evil. I simply disagree with your view that God is the Source of evil.

Selah.

 

[GrayAngel]

It isn't merely my "opinion." Greater philosophers and bible scholars than I have made the same observations. It is these thoughtful men that I paraphrase in my comments to you.

If it lacks Biblical support, then it's opinion. There are many common misconceptions among Christians which reading and accepting of scripture would easily dispel.

Then God is evil. This is the obvious conclusion to your line of thinking. You cannot reasonably reconcile God wanting to create evil with those verses in Scripture that declare His holiness and righteousness. You would make God the ultimate Source of evil. I don't think the Bible supports you in this.

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

God is only evil if His intentions are evil. As I've already proven, God causes people to act in evil ways because of His plans to make something good from it.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

You cannot "intend" for something to happen unless you're the cause of it.

What makes you think I haven't read of God hardening Pharoah's heart and the comments Paul makes about it? Just because I haven't come to the same conclusions as you about the import of these passages doesn't mean I am ignorant of them. In fact, I have read and wrestled with their meaning quite a bit.

Let me know if you ever come to a reasonable conclusion. I've heard it suggested that the Pharaoh was an exception to the rule, that only certain people were created by God to do evil. But this cop-out fails to accomplish it's purpose. If one claims that God cannot create evil without being evil, how could any exception to the rule be possible?

Do you have any alternative interpretations?

Actually, this verse was given explicitly and solely to the Israelites. You take it very much out context when you suggest it may be applied to New Testament Christians. I do believe God has our best interests at heart, but using the verse in Jeremiah to make a case for this view does violence to Scripture.

I was referring to a New Testament verse, but Paul probably had the Jeremiah verse in mind when he said it.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

And I would think, from one on your point of view, you would take for granted the fact that God has plans for our good. How could a good God not have plans for our good?

I don't think I ever suggested God was unable to stop evil. I simply disagree with your view that God is the Source of evil.

Selah.

If God is able to stop evil, then why doesn't He?

According to scripture, God does cause evil to happen. The thing that makes Him holy is that His intentions are good, at least for the people He calls His children.

There is nothing outside of God's control. Even the rain happens because God ordained it. Nothing happens that was not caused by the One who designed us.

 

[aiki]

It isn't merely my "opinion." Greater philosophers and bible scholars than I have made the same observations. It is these thoughtful men that I paraphrase in my comments to you. If it lacks Biblical support, then it's opinion. There are many common misconceptions among Christians which reading and accepting of scripture would easily dispel.

As I said, biblical scholars hold the same view that I do. There is good biblical basis for not making God the source of evil. I have given you one verse already that very explicitly says that God has absolutely no "darkness" (or evil) in Him. Simple reason forces us to conclude that if this is true, God cannot also be the Author of evil as you assert. How could a God who is totally "light" produce darkness? As Christ taught so clearly,

Matthew 7:18
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Paul the apostle teaches the same thing:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 ... For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial?...

Paul's answer to his own questions here is "None at all!"

Over and over again the Bible proclaims God's perfect holiness and righteousness. And as both Christ and Paul teach, this precludes God producing evil, which is the opposite of what you're proposing.

God is only evil if His intentions are evil. As I've already proven, God causes people to act in evil ways because of His plans to make something good from it.

God does not cause people to act in any way in which they aren't by their own choice predisposed to do.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

You cannot "intend" for something to happen unless you're the cause of it.

Sure you can. I have intended all sorts of things to happen that I could not cause to come to pass. For instance, I intended to date this really gorgeous girl in high school many years ago, but she wasn't interested. I intended to finish work at 5 pm the other day, but I didn't end up getting out of work until almost 6. And so it goes.

Joseph did not suffer any moral evil at God's hands. It is important here to make a distinction between right and wrong things, things which are morally positive or negative, like murder (which is wrong) and charity (which is right), and things that are merely good or bad, like catching a cold, or stubbing your toe (which would be bad), or finding hidden treasure (which would be good). Joseph suffered some bad things before becoming second-in-command in Egypt, but never did God do anything to Joseph that was morally wrong, or evil. God can cause us physical harm (He is the One who gives and ends our lives, after all) but He would never tempt us to do something morally wrong or force us to do such a thing.

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

By the way, if I torture a baby to death and then defend my actions by saying, "I had good intentions!", do you think I'm innocent of doing what is evil? I sure hope not! But this is the very thing you're suggesting when you say God is only evil if His intentions are evil. Evil is as evil does.

Let me know if you ever come to a reasonable conclusion. I've heard it suggested that the Pharaoh was an exception to the rule, that only certain people were created by God to do evil. But this cop-out fails to accomplish it's purpose. If one claims that God cannot create evil without being evil, how could any exception to the rule be possible?

Do you have any alternative interpretations?

If a wood carver makes a carving knife that is used to murder someone, is he guilty of the evil of murder? I don't think so. It is not possible to make a knife capable of carving wood that isn't also capable of harming or even killing a human being. The wood carver never intended that his knife be used for murder, only for carving wood. The one who used his carving knife to murder another is solely responsible for the way in which the knife was used. In the same way, God has created us to glorify and serve Him but in doing so He has necessarily given us the potential to do the opposite. He has given us the potential to do what is right intending that we would, but in so doing also gave us the capacity to do great evil. What potential we realize is our choice, however, not God's.

In the case of Pharoah, God simply confirmed Pharoah in his hardness of heart; God cemented Pharoah in an attitude that Pharoah had already chosen. God did not force Pharoah to resist the Exodus of the Hebrews. In chapter 5 of Exodus, when Moses first approaches Pharoah, Pharoah denies Moses' request declaring:

Exodus 5:2
2 ..."Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go."

It isn't until chapter 7, however, that God says to Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart. But as you can see Pharoah was already hard toward the idea of the Israelites leaving their servitude in Egypt in chapter 5!

This explanation, it seems to me, conforms in a much more balanced way to the teaching of Scripture concerning God's holy nature and our responsibility for our choices. If God had forced Pharoah to do evil, then Pharoah would not bear any responsibility for his actions. He would be on a level with a robot merely fulfilling its programming.

I was referring to a New Testament verse, but Paul probably had the Jeremiah verse in mind when he said it.

I don't think Paul would be guilty of taking a verse out of its context in order to broaden its application.

And I would think, from one on your point of view, you would take for granted the fact that God has plans for our good. How could a good God not have plans for our good?

My point wasn't really about God's good plans for us, but about taking a verse out of context in order to assert that He has such plans for us.

If God is able to stop evil, then why doesn't He?

It is a necessary consequence of giving us free will. If God prevented the evil consequences of our evil choices, He would essentially be over-riding the exercise of our free will.

According to scripture, God does cause evil to happen.

God sometimes causes bad or harmful things (like earthquakes, or illness, or financial crises) to happen to people but He does not cause moral evil to occur.

Selah.

 

[hedrick]

God created everything. God knew everything before creation. God created Satan, knowing he would cause a third of the angels to rebel, and then also dragging humanity into a similar situation. God was neither ignorant of what would take place, nor was He too weak to prevent it. Evil came into the world because God wanted it to.

Yes, but he didn't create evil. He created beings who he knew would choose evil. So evil is part of his plan. But he didn't do it himself, nor create it.

The concern here is that if evil actually came from him, then he is evil himself. So a distinction is being made between setting up a world in which others would choose to be evil, and being evil himself.

Actually, there is some question whether evil is a thing that needs a creator. Evil is a corruption of good, not a thing that can exist in itself. So we don't need to think of it as something that was created specifically.

Try reading Exodus, and count the number of times scripture says that the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh. Then read Romans 9:17, when Paul states God's purpose for raising up the Pharaoh.

Again, I agree, but I may not agree about the implications. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but only after he had already chosen evil. I don't think there is any sign in the Bible of God's presence in someone making them evil, but there are examples of him controlling how evil is expressed so as to bring good from it. In this case, the exodus.

It doesn't matter what the intentions are of these people. If they think they're doing something good, but it's really evil, they're still evil. Like the say: the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

That quotation is not Scriptural. It may be true in some sense, but I'd rather not start from it. Intentions matter a lot. The Sermon on the Mount, specifically Mat 5, is clear that our character and intention is primarily how God evaluates us.

Good intentions combined with lousy judgement may, and often do, produce terrible results. But a person can be good (at least relatively good), and their actions can be evil, or at least terribly damaging (if you prefer to limit the term evil to people).

What matters is what God's purpose is. God wrote evil into our history because He had something good in mind, like when Joseph (OT Joseph, not the stepfather of Jesus) was sold into slavery by his brothers. The brothers didn't do this because they loved Joseph. But scripture tells us that God intended for this to happen for good.

Genesis 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.

We do not always have the pleasure of seeing the good that God has planned, but we don't have to. We trust God, knowing the kind of God He is. We are like ignorant children, and He is our patient Father. We don't understand, but we obey anyway.

I agree with all of this. I just don't think it makes God the creator of evil. Your position is basically Calvin's. He denies that God is the author of sin, even though he believes that God chose for it to happen.

Most Calvinists think there is an asymmetry between good and evil. Both are part of God's plan. He is responsible for the fact that evil exists. But he is the source of good and not evil. The Holy Spirit works in people, moving them to good. I deny that the Holy Spirit ever moves people to be evil. He may work in people to channel how their evil is expressed.

 

[GrayAngel]

As I said, biblical scholars hold the same view that I do.

I don't care what know-it-alls your sources are. Experts are just as motivated by personal opinion as anyone. They base their arguments are their own ideas, finding whatever verses they can twist to their advantage. But their arguments are weak and easy to topple over.

There is good biblical basis for not making God the source of evil. I have given you one verse already that very explicitly says that God has absolutely no "darkness" (or evil) in Him. Simple reason forces us to conclude that if this is true, God cannot also be the Author of evil as you assert. How could a God who is totally "light" produce darkness? As Christ taught so clearly,

Matthew 7:18
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Paul the apostle teaches the same thing:

2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 ... For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
15 And what accord has Christ with Belial?...

Paul's answer to his own questions here is "None at all!"

Over and over again the Bible proclaims God's perfect holiness and righteousness. And as both Christ and Paul teach, this precludes God producing evil, which is the opposite of what you're proposing.

The verses you've quoted offer no contradiction to what I've proposed. God does not find fellowship with evil, and there is no evil in Him. But the Bible also says that God created everything that exists, including the devil, the pharaoh (which the Bible also says that God specifically "raised up" to do what he did, and also says that God personally hardened his heart), and every evil person who has ever existed.

No verse says that evil did not originate with God. Everything originated with God, the One who created everything. And He was not too ignorant or weak to create a world without sin.

God does not cause people to act in any way in which they aren't by their own choice predisposed to do.

Yes, He does. I've already given you the examples of the pharaoh and Joseph's brothers. Are you going to continue to ignore my every argument?

Sure you can. I have intended all sorts of things to happen that I could not cause to come to pass. For instance, I intended to date this really gorgeous girl in high school many years ago, but she wasn't interested. I intended to finish work at 5 pm the other day, but I didn't end up getting out of work until almost 6. And so it goes.

Your example does not help your argument.

1. Intention implies that you're actively involved in trying to bring about a result. Even in your example, your intention implied that you would act to make something happen.

2. You failed to achieve your desired result. God did not fail, nor is it ever possible for Him to fail.

The verse says that Joseph's brothers intended to harm him, but God's intention was for good. This means that God had a personal role to play in the actions of Joseph's brothers. And because God cannot fail, He succeeded.

Joseph did not suffer any moral evil at God's hands. It is important here to make a distinction between right and wrong things, things which are morally positive or negative, like murder (which is wrong) and charity (which is right), and things that are merely good or bad, like catching a cold, or stubbing your toe (which would be bad), or finding hidden treasure (which would be good). Joseph suffered some bad things before becoming second-in-command in Egypt, but never did God do anything to Joseph that was morally wrong, or evil. God can cause us physical harm (He is the One who gives and ends our lives, after all) but He would never tempt us to do something morally wrong or force us to do such a thing.

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

"Nor does He Himself tempt anyone." God doesn't tempt anyone. That's why He has the devil. Isn't God the One who suggested to Satan that he torture Job? Even Satan cannot help but follow God's will. It is impossible to do anything to hurt God's plan, because everything we do was predetermined by God.

By the way, if I torture a baby to death and then defend my actions by saying, "I had good intentions!", do you think I'm innocent of doing what is evil? I sure hope not! But this is the very thing you're suggesting when you say God is only evil if His intentions are evil. Evil is as evil does.

How could a human have any good intentions for torturing a baby? We can't. God, however, who is infinite in knowledge, and who knows the full result of every action, has the resources to bring good out of evil.

Your analogy does not work. Humans and God are not alike. We know that evil exists in the world. And if you believe in the Bible, then you know that:

1. God created everything that exists.

2. God is infinite in knowledge.

3. Even the future is not outside of God's knowledge.

The only possible conclusions to make, then, is that either God was too weak to stop evil from coming into the world (which is simply a ridiculous and silly idea) or that God intended for evil to exist.

If a wood carver makes a carving knife that is used to murder someone, is he guilty of the evil of murder? I don't think so. It is not possible to make a knife capable of carving wood that isn't also capable of harming or even killing a human being. The wood carver never intended that his knife be used for murder, only for carving wood. The one who used his carving knife to murder another is solely responsible for the way in which the knife was used. In the same way, God has created us to glorify and serve Him but in doing so He has necessarily given us the potential to do the opposite. He has given us the potential to do what is right intending that we would, but in so doing also gave us the capacity to do great evil. What potential we realize is our choice, however, not God's.

This is not an interpretation. This is more arguing based on opinion. This analogy doesn't work, either. If you know what a person will do with the knife you make for him, then you are responsible for what happens. God was not ignorant of what we would do.

Also, free will does not exist. That's another common misconception among Christians today which lacks any Biblical basis, and it is contrary to what the Bible actually teaches. It is God who determines our every step.

Proverbs 16:9 - In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

There's a mountain of Biblical evidence against the idea of free will, and only a few verses taken out of context used to argue the opposite.

In the case of Pharoah, God simply confirmed Pharoah in his hardness of heart; God cemented Pharoah in an attitude that Pharoah had already chosen. God did not force Pharoah to resist the Exodus of the Hebrews. In chapter 5 of Exodus, when Moses first approaches Pharoah, Pharoah denies Moses' request declaring:

Exodus 5:2
2 ..."Who is the Lord, that I should obey His voice to let Israel go? I do not know the Lord, nor will I let Israel go."

It isn't until chapter 7, however, that God says to Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart. But as you can see Pharoah was already hard toward the idea of the Israelites leaving their servitude in Egypt in chapter 5!

This explanation, it seems to me, conforms in a much more balanced way to the teaching of Scripture concerning God's holy nature and our responsibility for our choices. If God had forced Pharoah to do evil, then Pharoah would not bear any responsibility for his actions. He would be on a level with a robot merely fulfilling its programming.

Wrong. The Bible doesn't say that God acknowledged that the Pharaoh's heart was already hard. It says that He personally hardened the Pharaoh's heart. Try to refrain from imposing your own extra-Biblical bias to the scripture and read it for what it actually says. Sometimes, the Pharaoh's heart was already hard, but when it wasn't, God personally came to fix that. Without God, the Pharaoh would have given in more quickly, and he wouldn't have pursued the Hebrews afterward without God's influence over him.

Also, it started in chapter 4, not 7:

Exodus 4:21 - The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

Lastly, what you're suggesting, that God didn't start hardening the Pharaoh's heart until a certain point does not help your argument. It doesn't matter when God started. The point is that He did do it. He altered the heart of a man to cause him to act in evil.

I don't think Paul would be guilty of taking a verse out of its context in order to broaden its application.

My point wasn't really about God's good plans for us, but about taking a verse out of context in order to assert that He has such plans for us.

I don't understand what you're trying to argue. God's plans are for good, not for evil, but He has no plans for us? I'm not taking anything out of context. The first century Christians understood this perfectly. Even when they were tortured, they considered their pain a gift from God, praising Him that they would be considered worthy enough to suffer for Christ's sake.

Acts 5:41 - The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

It is a necessary consequence of giving us free will. If God prevented the evil consequences of our evil choices, He would essentially be over-riding the exercise of our free will.

God sometimes causes bad or harmful things (like earthquakes, or illness, or financial crises) to happen to people but He does not cause moral evil to occur.

Selah.

There are no verses to support what you're suggesting here. Free will is a myth, and God is not just some distant observer who watches what we do.

 

[GrayAngel]

Yes, but he didn't create evil. He created beings who he knew would choose evil. So evil is part of his plan. But he didn't do it himself, nor create it.

The concern here is that if evil actually came from him, then he is evil himself. So a distinction is being made between setting up a world in which others would choose to be evil, and being evil himself.

Actually, there is some question whether evil is a thing that needs a creator. Evil is a corruption of good, not a thing that can exist in itself. So we don't need to think of it as something that was created specifically.

We seem to agree on a lot, but we disagree on whether or not it is accurate to say that God created evil. Think about this: are we God's creation? Of course, we are. But did God create us out of thin air? No. The sperm and egg which was used to make us came from our parents. Still, we give credit to God for creating us. The Bible itself says that we were formed in our mother's womb, and it gives credit to God. But did God create our DNA, or did or DNA come from our parents?

Our existence is the result of the actions of others. God didn't form us out of thin air, yet we still give Him credit. How is evil any different, then? So what if God didn't create evil out of nothing? Does it matter that Satan was originally good? God knew Satan would turn against Him, just like He knew our parents would come together to form us.

Again, I agree, but I may not agree about the implications. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but only after he had already chosen evil. I don't think there is any sign in the Bible of God's presence in someone making them evil, but there are examples of him controlling how evil is expressed so as to bring good from it. In this case, the exodus.

I already made this point with aiki, but what does it matter when God decided to harden the heart of Pharaoh? He still did it, and He caused Pharaoh to act out in evil. Without God's influence, the Pharaoh would have given in sooner. He also wouldn't have tried to kill the Hebrews after they had left, and he wouldn't have drowned as a result.

The Bible says that the Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds, but it gives God the credit for causing them to pursue the Hebrews:

Exodus 14:8 - The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

That quotation is not Scriptural. It may be true in some sense, but I'd rather not start from it. Intentions matter a lot. The Sermon on the Mount, specifically Mat 5, is clear that our character and intention is primarily how God evaluates us.

Good intentions combined with lousy judgement may, and often do, produce terrible results. But a person can be good (at least relatively good), and their actions can be evil, or at least terribly damaging (if you prefer to limit the term evil to people).

True, the saying is not in the Bible, but it is true. Of course, God cares about the condition of the heart, but we always try to justify ourselves. The worst people in the world didn't do what made them infamous because they knew it was evil. It wasn't because they didn't care about what was right or wrong. It was because they had convinced themselves that they were justified in their actions.

Just like with Joseph's brothers. They didn't come together and say, "Hey, let's do something evil today! Let's sell our brother for money and lie about it, even though our brother has never done anything deserving of it!"

No. They were offended by the dream that Joseph had shared with them, and they thought Joseph deserved to be sold.

I agree with all of this. I just don't think it makes God the creator of evil. Your position is basically Calvin's. He denies that God is the author of sin, even though he believes that God chose for it to happen.

Most Calvinists think there is an asymmetry between good and evil. Both are part of God's plan. He is responsible for the fact that evil exists. But he is the source of good and not evil. The Holy Spirit works in people, moving them to good. I deny that the Holy Spirit ever moves people to be evil. He may work in people to channel how their evil is expressed.

I agree that the Holy Spirit does not influence people to act in evil. The Holy Spirit lives only in the saved, and temptation is the job of Satan. But even Satan cannot do anything to hurt God's plan. When Satan tortured Job (under God's direction, by the way), he intended to make Job curse God. Instead, Job's faith was strengthened, and God's will for Job--not Satan's--was done.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I would really like to know what you think about this quote, which, by the way, comes from Epicurus. Personally, I like it, as it demonstrates quite well some of the problems that I see in the Christian belief, but if you can somehow show me that this quote is wrong,then so be it.

What is there to discuss when the quote inherently begs a question?

There is a presupposition of 'good' built into this quote, implying that God supposedly 'should' do and be 'such and such.' The problem is that a presupposed prescriptive value of good has been foisted arbtrarily upon the working concept of God by the person who wrote this (ancient) quote--a human being who has a limited concept of God, as all people do. (And I'm not insinuating that the writer has limits due to some fallen nature, just limits due to being human.)

The question being begged is: Who has the authority to determine what a universal definition of 'good' is, especially in regard to a concept of 'God'?

 

[SolomonVII]

I would really like to know what you think about this quote, which, by the way, comes from Epicurus. Personally, I like it, as it demonstrates quite well some of the problems that I see in the Christian belief, but if you can somehow show me that this quote is wrong,then so be it.

God's omnipotence cannot contradict his omnibenevolent nature. God cannot prevent evil without violating the freedom of his creation, which in itself would be an evil on his behalf.
It is a cute, rather intriguing little logical work though, similar to the question of whether God can create a rock so large that he himself cannot lift it. In the end though, the contradiction lies in the logic, not in the nature of God.

God is simply not a tyrant who imposes his will on his creation.Tyranny would be the evil introduced by God here if he followed that logic, but God can never do evil. It is against his nature. He therefore allows for people to make their own good or bad choices, and simply responds to those choices in the best way possible, in order to limit the evil that those choices invariably unleash upon the world.

 

[The Fox]

God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, etc. If this were true, then why is Satan such a big factor? Why can't God just get rid of him along with all evil and we will all be living in a perfect world?

Why, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, did he create the earth and Man, saw that it was very good, only to later regret having made Man to the extent that he tried to destroy his creation twice (Sodom & The Great Flood) and even failed in accomplishing that? If God expects people to be perfect then why did he not create us as perfect beings? Why is there a need for Satan?

 

[aiki]

God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, etc. If this were true, then why is Satan such a big factor? Why can't God just get rid of him along with all evil and we will all be living in a perfect world?

I don't know that such a world would be perfect. It would certainly be uniform. No one could get out of line morally; no one could do anything other than what God wanted; no one could genuinely choose to do right because there would be no choice between right and some other alternative; no one could really love God, and obey Him as a result of that love, because love by definition is a choice. This doesn't sound perfect to me...

Why, if he is omnipotent and omniscient, did he create the earth and Man, saw that it was very good, only to later regret having made Man to the extent that he tried to destroy his creation twice (Sodom & The Great Flood) and even failed in accomplishing that?

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because their wickedness was "very grievous." He destroyed all but Noah and his family because the whole world was running headlong into evil. But God didn't fail in rendering appropriate judgment upon wickedness. His judgment was full and exact, and accomplished its holy, just purpose.

God wanted creatures that would genuinely choose to love Him. But such creatures necessarily must be able to choose not to love Him, which many of them do. And those who choose to live without God embark on a life that, in rejecting God's light, can only move into darkness.

If God expects people to be perfect then why did he not create us as perfect beings? Why is there a need for Satan?

If we were perfect beings we would be identical to God - we would be gods. But there is only one God. God has, however, made a way for imperfect human beings to be clothed in His perfect righteousness: the way of salvation.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

I don't care what know-it-alls your sources are. Experts are just as motivated by personal opinion as anyone. They base their arguments are their own ideas, finding whatever verses they can twist to their advantage. But their arguments are weak and easy to topple over.

And why can't all these things be said of you as well?

The verses you've quoted offer no contradiction to what I've proposed. God does not find fellowship with evil, and there is no evil in Him.

If there is no evil in God and He does not have anything to do with it, how can He be made the ultimate Source of evil? This doesn't wash.

But the Bible also says that God created everything that exists, including the devil,

Who was not created as the devil but as a beautiful angel.

the pharaoh (which the Bible also says that God specifically "raised up" to do what he did, and also says that God personally hardened his heart),

As the passage in Exodus reveals, God acted in concert with the hardness of Pharoah's heart which Pharoah had already chosen to adopt. God did not force hardness upon Pharoah, but simply secured him in the choice he had already made. And the passage in Romans 9 is speaking of God's right to use us as He wishes. It does not state that God created Pharoah as an evil person or forced Him to evil conduct, but rather "raised him up" in order to magnify His own name in the earth. The phrase "raised him up" does not carry the sense of creation and cannot be properly used to suggest that God created Pharoah as an evil being whose only purpose was to resist God and be destroyed.

and every evil person who has ever existed.

My analogy about the wood carver's knife addresses this pretty well. God has given each of us the potential for good or evil. This potential is neither good nor bad in itself; how we choose to express that potential, however, will be.

No verse says that evil did not originate with God. Everything originated with God, the One who created everything. And He was not too ignorant or weak to create a world without sin.

No verse says that moral evil originates with God, either. And we have the verses that I offered in my last post that preclude asserting God and evil have anything at all to do with each other.

God did create a world without evil -- initially. Adam and Eve exercised their potential to do right or wrong and sin entered the world through them, not God. God is no more the Author of their wickedness than the maker of a wood carving knife is responsible when someone uses the knife he has made to kill a person rather than carve wood.

Yes, He does. I've already given you the examples of the pharaoh and Joseph's brothers. Are you going to continue to ignore my every argument?

And I've explained that you are misinterpreting in these instances. I am not ignoring your argument; I simply disagree with it.

"Nor does He Himself tempt anyone." God doesn't tempt anyone. That's why He has the devil.

That's not what the apostle James tells us:

James 1:14
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

Certainly, the devil may tempt us, but he does so by provoking our own fleshly desires which are constantly enticing us to do wrong. Paul the apostle agrees with James and writes,

Galatians 5:16-17
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Paul doesn't lay the blame for our sin at the devil's feet but at our own. It is ultimately our own fleshly nature that leads us into sin.

If Satan was merely the evil agent of God as you seem to be suggesting above, then God would be like someone who used a hit man to kill people. But someone who orders the murder of someone is just as guilty of the evil of their murder as the one who carries out the order.

Isn't God the One who suggested to Satan that he torture Job? Even Satan cannot help but follow God's will. It is impossible to do anything to hurt God's plan, because everything we do was predetermined by God.

I'm sorry, but if you hold to this view then God is guilty of causing all the evil in the world. And if you cause evil, you are evil. As I said, evil is as evil does. You would make God the most heinous, vile Being in the universe with your line of thinking!

I agree with you that nothing can prevent God's will being done. But Satan does not typically follow God's will, which is precisely why he is evil. In the instance of Job, God had to put a limit on Satan's efforts because he knew Satan was a destroyer and would kill Job if he could. Thus, we see that Satan's will and God's were not aligned right from the start of the Job affair.

How could a human have any good intentions for torturing a baby? We can't. God, however, who is infinite in knowledge, and who knows the full result of every action, has the resources to bring good out of evil.

It doesn't follow that just because God knows more He can do what is evil and it not be evil. Yes, God can bring good ends out of evil circumstances, but this is different than saying God does evil so that good may come, which is what you seem to be asserting.

The only possible conclusions to make, then, is that either God was too weak to stop evil from coming into the world (which is simply a ridiculous and silly idea) or that God intended for evil to exist.

As I've explained, these aren't the only two options. Knowing that evil would exist and causing it to exist are two different things. In God's case, He knew before He created us that we would do evil, but this was a necessary by-product of allowing us to freely choose to love Him and obey Him. Just as the carving knife in being made sharp enough to carve wood is also made capable of cutting human flesh, God, in making us capable of doing what is right also necessarily made us capable of doing what is wrong. He could not have a world where people would freely choose to fellowship with Him and obey HIm without having a world where some would choose not to.

When a couple decides to conceive and give birth to a child they know that their child will not be a perfect child. It will disobey, and act selfishly, and disappoint its parents. There's no guarantee that the child won't become an axe-murderer, or pedophile, or drug addict. But if the child did become any or all of these things, are its parents convicted of wrongdoing in bringing the child into being in the first place? Did Jeffrey Dahmer's parents go to jail because their child was a serial killer? Were they blamed as the cause of their son's wrongdoing? Of course not. Likewise, we cannot say God caused our evil simply because He knew we would do evil and brought us into being anyway.

Also, free will does not exist. That's another common misconception among Christians today which lacks any Biblical basis, and it is contrary to what the Bible actually teaches. It is God who determines our every step.

Fortunately, your saying free will does not exist does not make it so. There are profound logical problems with asserting the absence of free will. You join the ranks of philosphical naturalists and atheists when you make such a claim.

God does not determine our every step, though He does know our every step. Every time I sin, I act contrary to God's will.

Proverbs 16:9 - In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

This is what is called a proof text. It is not, by itself, proof of what you are attempting to assert. Not by a long shot.

There's a mountain of Biblical evidence against the idea of free will, and only a few verses taken out of context used to argue the opposite.

I disagree. Your bald assertions need some support, I think.

Wrong. The Bible doesn't say that God acknowledged that the Pharaoh's heart was already hard.

I never said God merely "acknowledged" Pharoah's hardness. I said God cemented Pharoah in an attitude he had already chosen to adopt.

It says that He personally hardened the Pharaoh's heart.

Which, as I showed you, Scripture indicates was already hardened toward releasing the Israelites.

Try to refrain from imposing your own extra-Biblical bias to the scripture and read it for what it actually says.

You ought to take your own advice. I have made my case from the Scripture itself, which you have not refuted but simply dismissed out-of-hand. I'm afraid mere dismissal of contrary views isn't going to establish the validity of your own interpretation.

Sometimes, the Pharaoh's heart was already hard, but when it wasn't, God personally came to fix that.

Now who's spinning Scripture to suit a personal point of view?! What you have just stated here is not supported by Scripture at all!

Without God, the Pharaoh would have given in more quickly, and he wouldn't have pursued the Hebrews afterward without God's influence over him.

This is utter assumption. Nothing in Scripture suggests this in the least. Instead, as I showed you, Scripture tells us very explicitly that long before God hardened Pharoah's heart he was already absolutely opposed to releasing the Israelites.

Also, it started in chapter 4, not 7:

Exodus 4:21 - The LORD said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

This only tells us that God would harden Pharoah's heart, not when. And, as Scripture reveals, God hardened Pharoah's heart only after he had already chosen to oppose releasing the Israelites.

Lastly, what you're suggesting, that God didn't start hardening the Pharaoh's heart until a certain point does not help your argument. It doesn't matter when God started. The point is that He did do it. He altered the heart of a man to cause him to act in evil.

Hold on, here. The timing of God's hardening does matter: It prevents you from saying what you have just said about God altering Pharoah's heart to cause him to do evil. God did not cause the evil in Pharoah's heart - He did not alter Pharoah's heart in order to provoke him to do evil - He simply cemented Pharoah in his own choice to resist God's will. Thus, God did not cause Pharoah to do evil; He simply secured Pharoah in the evil he was already doing. You see, then, that timing is quite important to my point about God's responsibility for Pharoah's evil choice.

There are no verses to support what you're suggesting here. Free will is a myth, and God is not just some distant observer who watches what we do.

I should like you to prove there is no support in Scripture for my viewpoint on free will. Simply declaring that there is none is not in the least convincing.

In fact, I can prove quite well that my view is supported by Scripture and makes better sense of it than your determinism does. Read "Salvation and Sovereignty: A Molinist Approach" by Kenneth Keathley. It might do you some good.

Selah.