Discontinue Cross as Christian Symbol?

agyevesam · Nov 11, 2005

Sorry, I could never give up the cross. When I look at it, it reminds me of Christ and his sacrifice for us. No matter what the world makes of it, it means the world to me. Christ died there, set us free there, nope, sorry, can't have my cross! Thank you Jesus for your love for us, to send your Son to die on a wooden cross.

Silent Enigma · Nov 16, 2005

AceHarddrive said:
As for me, no crosses of any kind.

~Tim

Not to mention the little brown one right below your name.

Kolya · Nov 21, 2005

When I was a Protestant, I belonged to a church that did not believe in displaying the Cross in any way.
When I converted to Orthodoxy, I made sure I got a cross - to strongly identify with my new found faith, and to distance myself from heretical belief.
Get rid of my cross now? NO WAY!!! It identifies me as a Christian, in no uncertain terms.

boukeslofstra · Nov 21, 2005

Hi Nektaria,

Funny, your guess about Egypt/Copt.
I'm not a specialist in early christianity (etc) but I studied Latin and Greek in the NL.
I had the same guess (that is (1) acceptus, latin, (2) egypt/copt). Both have their own disadvantages. If Akkeptous (the reading with one c is normal in latin), why not akkeptê? Note: she is a lady!
About Copt/Egypt. Note: the very word "Egypt(ian)" is Greek. Why not simple "aigyptikê"? The old Egyptians called their country Kemet, the contemporary Eg-s call it Msar (which is more or less the same as the Hebrew word).
The Greek word seems to be very old (Mycenean age) and it seems to refer to the Eg. name of Memphis (house of Ptah, or the like).
The word Copt is an Arab word, meaning non-muslim Egyptian. The word is (I guess) 7th century (Mohammed) or later. I don't know the word "Keptos" and it isn't in the extensive Greek dictionary Liddell and Scott either. Where did you read the word?
All in all, I like your guess about "Egyptian".

Yours,
Bouke Slofstra
PS: I made a website about the Megiddo inscriptions but I have no permission to link to it
(personal mail: boukeslofstra@hotmail.com)

dunkel · Nov 21, 2005

I thought the first symbol used by early Christians was the fish. IIRC, the fish symbology is still used by Arabs to describe Christians. Am I getting my history mixed up?

AceHarddrive · Nov 21, 2005

I know the fish symbol (ICTHUS) was used as a means of identifying other believers. If two people met, one would draw either the top-half or the bottom-half of the fish, and the other (if a fellow believer) would complete the image by drawing the other side. Makes me wonder if the symbol used to "seal" those who are saved after the Rapture has occurred will be in the form of the cross (as most believe) or the ICTHUS fish, or a combination. In the "Left Behind" series, the symbol is in the form of a cross, but it appears sort of like a 3D image. The series even describes one person who attempts to fake the mark.

~Tim

CyberPaladin · Dec 7, 2005

I can't imagine giving up the cross it's Christianty symbol and while I will admit some interesting questions I believe in this day and age we some times dig to far back in history ignoring length of time just to prove appoint.

SeekingTheTruth0819 · Dec 15, 2005

It is by the Crucifixion that we are saved. How can anyone even consider that. I would rather crucified myself than give it up.

Catherineanne · Dec 15, 2005

SeekingTheTruth0819 said:
It is by the Crucifixion that we are saved. How can anyone even consider that. I would rather be crucified myself than give it up.

Rather an extreme view there. Personally, I would throw every cross I own onto a fire rather than be crucified, or allow anyone else to be, but thankfully, that is not a choice I am ever likely to face.

As for the question, well it is not going to happen, so I won't lose any sleep over it. The whole point of symbols is that they are symbolic. You can't discontinue them. You can choose to use another symbol instead, or as well, but you cannot disconnect the meaning from the symbol, once established. And this one is pretty firmly established.

Deiesous · Dec 16, 2005

Do you know why protestants wear crosses without the Body of Jesus? Because He isn't there any more!!! idk about the other major branches of the church, but the Protestants use the bare cross to DECLARE THE RESSURECTION OF THE LORD! I could never give that up!

Catherineanne · Dec 16, 2005

Deiesous said:
Do you know why protestants wear crosses without the Body of Jesus? Because He isn't there any more!!! idk about the other major branches of the church, but the Protestants use the bare cross to DECLARE THE RESURRECTION OF THE LORD! I could never give that up!

Yep, I knew that.

I also know that Catholics wear the Crucifix with the Corpus, because Christ is still being crucified, every day.

Neither view is wrong.

savedbyfaithinchrist · Dec 17, 2005

TRY to take my cross and you will ride the pain train im just jokin but no ty i love my cross

Deiesous · Dec 22, 2005

Catherineanne said:
Yep, I knew that.

I also know that Catholics wear the Crucifix with the Corpus, because Christ is still being crucified, every day.

Neither view is wrong.

Very True. I'm just kind of attatched to my Protestant symbol, but both follow the Truth in scripture.

Deiesous · Dec 22, 2005

Catherineanne said:
Rather an extreme view there. Personally, I would throw every cross I own onto a fire rather than be crucified, or allow anyone else to be, but thankfully, that is not a choice I am ever likely to face.

As for the question, well it is not going to happen, so I won't lose any sleep over it. The whole point of symbols is that they are symbolic. You can't discontinue them. You can choose to use another symbol instead, or as well, but you cannot disconnect the meaning from the symbol, once established. And this one is pretty firmly established.

Ummm.... Ditto.

SolomonVII · Dec 22, 2005

AceHarddrive said:
Considering its history as 1) an item of pagan idolatry and 2) its use in the torture and crucifixion of countless lives, should we discontinue venerating the cross as a symbol of Christianity? Still, even if all the Christian denominations/sects/organizations could agree to discontinue, what a job that would be to remove ALL items containing crosses (paintings, steeples...). Also, what would we replace it with (if we chose to replace it)? The ICTHUS fish? A dove of peace? I know some (or all of you) are going to say what an impossible job it would be, therefore, why even consider it. As for me, no crosses of any kind.

~Tim

1)Catholics tend to have Christ on their crucifixes, thereby distinguishing them from the crosses the modern 'pagans' use for fashion statments.

2)Christ was among those countless victims of torture. He redeems them by sharing their fate.

For those that do consider giving up the cross though, an adequate replacement would be the Eucharist, the actual Body of the slain Lamb of God, that gives life eternal to all who partake of it.

carminejulie · Dec 24, 2005

AceHarddrive said:
Considering its history as 1) an item of pagan idolatry and 2) its use in the torture and crucifixion of countless lives, should we discontinue venerating the cross as a symbol of Christianity? Still, even if all the Christian denominations/sects/organizations could agree to discontinue, what a job that would be to remove ALL items containing crosses (paintings, steeples...). Also, what would we replace it with (if we chose to replace it)? The ICTHUS fish? A dove of peace? I know some (or all of you) are going to say what an impossible job it would be, therefore, why even consider it. As for me, no crosses of any kind.

~Tim

the ithacus fish is a pagan symbol too...

pagan symbols are nothing more than a falling away from a previous truth. The tower of babel was such an occurance.... The truth remained with Noah and his sons but eventually, it was lost to corruption.... it was stil hid in shadow if you cold find it.

Teh symbol of the cross occurs in genesis 1 as the alef tav (a grammatical insert in the hebrew when there is any sort of movement or creation), Chrsit calls himself the alpha and Omega, which in the hebrew, he is the alef tav, the tav is the letter "T" or cross.

It represents the payment for our sin thru the shed blood of an innocent victim... it is a reminder. Don't you want to be reminded of who you weer and what you were saved from?

Paul tells the corinthians that the basic milk wsa preaching Christ and Him crucified.... in symbol, that is the cross... is tehre something you feel that would represent our salvation more than a cross? It was here hat Christ died for us and gained victory over this death for al of us....

CArmine

carminejulie · Dec 24, 2005

Deiesous said:
Do you know why protestants wear crosses without the Body of Jesus? Because He isn't there any more!!! idk about the other major branches of the church, but the Protestants use the bare cross to DECLARE THE RESSURECTION OF THE LORD! I could never give that up!

is this why Paul said that he preaches Christ crucified as the basis of our religion?

protestants do not wear the cross with Chrsit on it because it was one more protest against the catholics early on and used a diffeent symbol. Paul preached Christ ccrucified as catholics do, protestants don't want to see the price paid in syumbol, they want to see clean, unblemished cross... God wsa concerned with sacrifice, the sacrifice was why there was a resurrection.

For CAtherine, I coldnt find your post so am responding to you too., if you dont' know catholicism and the Mass, (which is what i assume you mean that we think Christ is being crucified even today) then please be quiet, I checked your profile so can't figure if you are catholic or not, so am giving you some space on this. What you said is not our theology as catholics. Christ is in the heavenly temple applying his blood, intercedding for YOUR SINS AND MINE today. The one sacrifice 2000 years ago, it's blood is still being applied in intercession in the heavenly temple. the Mass is the pattern on earth of that which is stil going on today in heaven! The blood from the cross which Christ hung is still being applied... TAke away that blood, you have NO salvation, resurection comes after you accept the blood of Chrsit, thus a cross wit Christ on it is symbolic of the sacrifice paid for which later then, gives o uthe right to claim resurrection... IT is the entrance into heaven, not a cross with no one on it.

We just follow Paul in his foundatioinal statement in corinthians. CHRIST CRUCIFIED. he preached it, we do to in symbol.

albertmc · Dec 24, 2005

These arguments are old, have been answered numerous times, and have little substance. The fact is that the Greek word used was commonly applied to the straight stake used as the base of a crucifixion. There was also a horizintal bar for the arms attached at the point of crucifixion. This is what was likely carried about by the condemned on the way to death. The vertical stake was far too heavy to carry. The common forms of crucifixion was the cross form as we now know it, the T shape where the horizontal plank is at the top of the stake, and the X-shape. Given the description in the New Testament any straight stake can be ruled out. The sign "king of the Jews" in three laguages was placed above his head which would be impossible if the arms were extended above in the way suggested. This also likely rules out the T-shape. The X-shape is likewise eliminated. Simply put, he died on a cross.

Also remember that the Church Fathers actually saw crucifixions. They knew the mechanics. They were still in use until Christianity became the official religion of the empire. If they say it involved a cross, then it probably did. When was the last time any of us ever witnessed a Roman execution.

We venerate the cross because the fulfillment is always accorded more honor that the type that signified it. Look at the Old Testament and see the honor accorded the altar that was a prototype of the cross just as the lamb sacrificed was a prototype of the Lamb of God. The cross is remembered because Christ Himself chose to die there and so it became the altar upon which our salvation was bought with the greatest of all prices - the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Like St. Paul, we must rest all our hopes in Christ and Him crucified. There is no greater symbol of love than the cross, there is no greater symbol of victory than the cross, and there is no greater symbol of our faith than the cross.

AceHarddrive said:
Other informative sources can be found here and here.

~Tim

Adammi · Dec 24, 2005

AceHarddrive said:
Considering its history as 1) an item of pagan idolatry and 2) its use in the torture and crucifixion of countless lives, should we discontinue venerating the cross as a symbol of Christianity? Still, even if all the Christian denominations/sects/organizations could agree to discontinue, what a job that would be to remove ALL items containing crosses (paintings, steeples...). Also, what would we replace it with (if we chose to replace it)? The ICTHUS fish? A dove of peace? I know some (or all of you) are going to say what an impossible job it would be, therefore, why even consider it. As for me, no crosses of any kind.

~Tim

Yes, the cross is a sign of torture, of cruelty, of terrible crimes, of horror, of pain, etc. that's why I love it. You will never take it a way. Because the Catholic Church will always exist and as long as the Catholic Church exists Christ will be preached crucified.

Chaldean · Jan 4, 2006

How can a real Christian "discontinue" the cross? Our whole religion is based on our savior dying in the cross for us. How could you give up such a thing?

Discontinue Cross as Christian Symbol?

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