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Direction of Evolution

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a post by Alan Smithee
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Let's get back to "design flaws" for a moment @Endtime Survivors

Could you tell us, in your own words please,
- Why humans and chimpazees share 203,000 endogenous retroviral insertions?
- Why all primates including humans share a broken GULO gene?
- Why cetaceans have a non-functioning gene pathway for hind limb development and actually develop hind limb buds in utero which are absorbed back into the body as the fetus develops?
- Why all eutherians and marsupials have pseudogenes for egg yolk sac development when none of us birth our offspring as eggs?
 
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Speedwell

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Every event no matter how simple or complex, is directly caused by previous events. Storms don't just happen, volcanoes don't just erupt, resist the urge to see these events as random events.

Random does not mean uncaused.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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The lottery is random with respect to the tickets.

Only insofar as the ticket contains a number. It is the numbers which are drawn randomly, but they are only able to be drawn randomly because they've been set up to be drawn that way.

Evolution says there was no one there to set up the randomness.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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Random does not mean uncaused.

But evolution means uncaused. That's the core, essential point behind evolution; there was no God, designer, or intelligence behind any of it. I am genuinely surprised that so many atheists are allowing you to get away with saying that evolution has a designer behind it.

Lol, maybe I was too hard on them in my previous posts and now they don't know what to do about you!
 
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Speedwell

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But evolution means uncaused. That's the core, essential point behind evolution; there was no God, designer, or intelligence behind any of it. I am genuinely surprised that so many atheists are allowing you to get away with saying that evolution has a designer behind it.
That should be evidence that your assertion that evolution is intended to deny God is just the slander you intended it to be.

And, I never said that evolution has a "designer" behind it--I said it had God behind it.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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Why do so many Creationists think they're mind readers? :scratch:

I don't need to be a mind reader to understand motivations.

Only because you are trying to perpetrate the lie that the theory of evolution denies the existence of God.

Speedwell says he believes in a Designer behind evolution. He says evolution does recognize a designer. It fact, he says it would be a lie to suggest that Evolution denies any creator behind it all. Why are you letting him continue to believe this?

He says he doesn't want to talk about it in terms of "creation" (which is what it would be if there is a designer behind it all) because he's worried about what others may think of him.

The problem is, that the term "creationist" has been tainted by its association with Fundamentalist Protestantism and other Christians don't like to use it.

He doesn't want you all to mistakenly think he's one of those weirdos, so he steers well clear of calling it creation, just to avoid any possible blowback. Instead, he uses vernacular which will be more pleasing to Atheism, like evolution.

I can understand. I face something similar every time I talk to atheists about Christianity in general. So often it's, "what about the crusades", "what about the witch hunts", "what about all the con-men and their wealthy lifestyles". I even had one guy say he didn't like Christianity because Christians disagree with one another, and he presented this as a valid criticism. So, I sometimes wonder if I should just use different language, too.

But what good would that do? Christian is what I am. I would only create a confusing witness to the world if I tried to run away from the scorn that is so often associated with the word "christian" (or creation) these days.

The same principle is true for speedwell and him running away from using the word creation. He may think, in his heart, that he's really testifying to a God behind it all when he talks about evolution, but what the rest of the world will see is a Christian who declines to give credit to his creator because he's afraid of what others will think of him, especially when all his atheists buddies keep patting him on the back.

If he's pressed into a corner he'll admit to it, but it comes with such an air of intellectual aloofness that it almost seems incidental.

That's not me mind reading. That's me making an assessment of his behavior and motives based on his reasoning and words. But I can see how "mind reading" comes across as a handy way to rather glibly dismiss difficult observations.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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No, that would be an asinine association because evolution most assuredly doesn't "teach" anything about God and it would depend on what sort of atheism you're talking about.

Nope. Evolution at its core is an explanation for how we came to be here without any intelligence, design, or intent behind it all.

If you want to talk about a theory which does include intelligence, design, and intent, then it would be silly to also call that evolution.

And, evolution most certainly does teach that there is no God behind itself, because that is what is has been designed to teach.

I don't think I've ever seen such a squeamish bunch of atheists, practically tripping over themselves to allow speedwell to have his designer-behind-evolution. I mean, of course you don't have to be rude about it, but then again just presenting the facts shouldn't be considered rude, either and the fact is that evolution does not support a designer.

You may be fine for speedwell to believe it does, but that shouldn't stop you from also pointing out that he's misunderstood the concept, which is why your post#215 applauding him was so carefully written as to not include any reference to evolution. Instead, you talked about "the story that the Creation itself is telling him".

If you really want to be speedwell's friend, tell him the truth. Stop dancing around his feelings and set him straight. There is no designer behind evolution and there is no room for it in evolution no matter how badly you want to get along with one another. Actually, you could probably have an even better sense of respect for one another by getting all that in the open, instead of all this ethereal swirling from one definition or concept to another as though they are interchangeable according to how we want to applaud one another.
 
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Endtime Survivors

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And, I never said that evolution has a "designer" behind it--I said it had God behind it.

Exactly. This is exactly the kind of confusion I've been talking about. There is a God behind it but he didn't do anything? Lol, wth are you really saying!!!! *tears hair out*
 
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Gene2memE

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Nope. Evolution at its core is an explanation for how we came to be here without any intelligence, design, or intent behind it all.

I don't think it is. I think it's an explanation of the diversity of life and the development of that diversity, based on the evidence seen in nature.

If the evidence pointed to "intelligence, design, or intent" behind the diversity of life and its development, that's what would have been described.

Divorce yourself from your religious beliefs and ask yourself the question: What pieces of evidence indicate that there is intelligence, design, or intent in the development of life?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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...which is why your post#215 applauding him was so carefully written as to not include any reference to evolution. Instead, you talked about "the story that the Creation itself is telling him".

Snipping a bunch of taunting and goading I'm not going to fall for so I can concentrate on this bit.

That was a reference to evolution. Sorry if it was too subtle.
 
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Ophiolite

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Hello Ophiolite.

You made an interesting statement.

How could anyone make the claim, that an event is a random event?

Is it possible for an event to occur without a prior cause?
Do you deny that random events occur?
Do you understand that random does not mean without cause?
 
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Jimmy D

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But evolution means uncaused. That's the core, essential point behind evolution; there was no God, designer, or intelligence behind any of it.

No it doesn't. Many Christians accept evolution, as can be seen on this very page. Please show us where the Theory of Evolution says that there is no God or stop this nonsense.

Exactly. This is exactly the kind of confusion I've been talking about. There is a God behind it but he didn't do anything? Lol, wth are you really saying!!!! *tears hair out*

No one is confused except you, although I suspect that you're actually just being deliberately obtuse.


Thesitic evolution

Theistic Evolution is the old earth creationist belief that God used the process of evolution to create life on earth. The modern scientific understanding of biological evolution is considered to be compatible with the Bible.

There are varying degrees of theistic evolution. Many theistic evolutionists believe that God set in motion the laws of nature that led to evolution, but He did not take an active role in guiding the evolutionary process. He merely let nature take its course.

It's really not that difficult a concept to grasp.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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He doesn't want you all to mistakenly think he's one of those weirdos, so he steers well clear of calling it creation, just to avoid any possible blowback. Instead, he uses vernacular which will be more pleasing to Atheism, like evolution.

OR, and here's a better idea, he accepts actual science and also believes in God at the same time! Now how's that for a novel idea, Mister Mindreader?
 
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PsychoSarah

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After talking a look at your profile, I have to ask:

To whom? what is His name?
-_- mostly, a generalized prayer without names. However, due to my cultural background, whenever specified, it has been to Yahweh, or, to a lesser extent, Jesus.
 
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sfs

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Nope. Evolution at its core is an explanation for how we came to be here without any intelligence, design, or intent behind it all.
Yes, we get that you believe this. What we're all telling you is that you are completely, 100% wrong in your belief. I have no idea where you got this idea about evolution. You can't point to a dictionary definition that includes anything about a lack of intent. You can't find it in textbooks or scientific papers. What you are talking about is simply not what scientists mean when they use the word "evolution". I work in a viral evolution group, and I'm affiliated with an evolutionary biology department. I've listened to, talked to and read papers by hundreds or thousands of biologists studying evolution, and the number who expressed or implied anything like this is exactly zero.

Could you please address this fundamental question: why do you think evolution at its core rules out any intelligence, design, or intent behind it?
 
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AV1611VET

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Could you please address this fundamental question: why do you think evolution at its core rules out any intelligence, design, or intent behind it?
Because, according to you guys, evolution only deals with life AFTER it appeared.

God and abiogenesis aren't included in the theory.

Of these thousands of paper biologists you've read/listened to, how many of them mentioned 'abiogenesis'?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Every event no matter how simple or complex, is directly caused by previous events. Storms don't just happen, volcanoes don't just erupt, resist the urge to see these events as random events.

Centuries ago, people looked upon a magical world, a world without an intricate causation. Things just happened, well as our learning has increased, we have discovered. That there is indeed causes behind so many events, that we once viewed as random events.
As has been pointed out, random doesn't mean uncaused. Although, as I understand it, there is a question mark over the direct cause of a radioactive decay at the level of an individual atom.

The numbers that feature in any lottery draw, are certainly not the result of a random event. Though the complexity of the draw is profound, nevertheless utterly predictable when all the variables are known.
You miss the point - the numbers drawn may not be random, but that doesn't matter; as long as there's no way for participants to discover the numbers before buying their tickets, the lottery is random from their perspective.

Whether the draw really is 'random' is an interesting point - if the world is classically deterministic, then the observer effect together with the Butterfly Effect (sensitive dependence on initial conditions) may make it impossible in practice to know all the variables, because a measurement will disturb the system and the Butterfly Effect will amplify that disturbance, invalidating the prediction (also, the relativity of simultaneity might make it impossible to simultaneously measure all the variables)... so it would be random in the sense of being unpredictable in practice.

On the other hand, the uncertainty principle and stochastic quantum mechanics may mean that there really are no definite variables to base a prediction on... so it would be random in the sense of being unpredictable in principle.

I think the jury is still out on QM randomness; for example, the 'Many Worlds' interpretation is deterministic, positing that the randomness we experience is an artifact of our perspective in much the same way as the randomness the lottery participants see is an artifact of theirs.
 
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Speedwell

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Exactly. This is exactly the kind of confusion I've been talking about. There is a God behind it but he didn't do anything? Lol, wth are you really saying!!!! *tears hair out*
That the creative act of God had nothing to do with design as carried out by human engineers, so the word is inappropriate. Nor would I want to risk being associated with the fascist extremists at the Discovery Institute who invented Intelligent Design as a cover for their political agenda.
 
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