Direction of Evolution

[Speedwell]

But what good would that do? Christian is what I am. I would only create a confusing witness to the world if I tried to run away from the scorn that is so often associated with the word "christian" (or creation) these days. .

Scorn well earned by creationists, not for their faith in Christ, but for the lies they tell about science and the Bible--and in this case as in so many others, lies they tell about their fellow Christians.

 

[bhsmte]

Scorn well earned by creationists, not for their faith in Christ, but for the lies they tell about science and the Bible--and in this case as in so many others, lies they tell about their fellow Christians.

Scorn well earned by creationists, not for their faith in Christ, but for the lies they tell about science and the Bible--and in this case as in so many others, lies they tell about their fellow Christians.

Well, when well evidenced reality doesnt suit ones personal needs, some manufacture their own, more comforting reality.

 

[sfs]

Because, according to you guys, evolution only deals with life AFTER it appeared.

God and abiogenesis aren't included in the theory.

I can't see your logic here. Auto mechanics and solid state physics also don't deal with where life came from. Does that mean they also rule out purpose behind the universe? Suppose God did create the first life by a miracle, and suppose we can even show scientifically that life couldn't have started by natural means. What effect will that have on evolutionary biology? Why does describing how life changes rule out God?

 

[Loudmouth]

Hello Loudmouth.

Every event no matter how simple or complex, is directly caused by previous events. Storms don't just happen, volcanoes don't just erupt, resist the urge to see these events as random events.

Caused events can still be random.

On top of that, there are still uncaused events at the quantum level. For example, an unstable atomic nuclei will decay spontaneously and without cause. In quantum theory, the distribution of a particle is described by a wave function where the particle is distributed randomly within that wave function. At the molecular level, the process of mutation can be governed by quantum events.

The numbers that feature in any lottery draw, are certainly not the result of a random event. Though the complexity of the draw is profound, nevertheless utterly predictable when all the variables are known.

However, the lottery drawing is not influenced by the numbers on someone's ticket. That means the lottery is random with respect to the tickets.

 

[Loudmouth]

Only insofar as the ticket contains a number. It is the numbers which are drawn randomly, but they are only able to be drawn randomly because they've been set up to be drawn that way.

If you don't think that mutations are random, then how is the process of mutation set up so that it is non-random?

Evolution says there was no one there to set up the randomness.

Evolution just says that they are random because they are observed to be random.

 

[Loudmouth]

But evolution means uncaused.

According to whom? I have never seen a single biology text book or primary article that says evolution is uncaused. Darwin wrote a whole book on the causes of evolution called "On the Origin of Species". Perhaps you should read it.

That's the core, essential point behind evolution; there was no God, designer, or intelligence behind any of it.

The essential point behind evolution is that it is caused by random mutations, natural selection, and other natural processes. Evolution makes no claim that no intelligence is involved since no scientific theory makes universally negative claims.

 

[Loudmouth]

Exactly. This is exactly the kind of confusion I've been talking about. There is a God behind it but he didn't do anything? Lol, wth are you really saying!!!! *tears hair out*

It seems that you have difficulty understanding that people have different beliefs than you do.

 

[Loudmouth]

Speedwell says he believes in a Designer behind evolution. He says evolution does recognize a designer. It fact, he says it would be a lie to suggest that Evolution denies any creator behind it all. Why are you letting him continue to believe this?

"It can hardly be supposed that a false theory would explain, in so satisfactory a manner as does the theory of natural selection, the several large classes of facts above specified. It has recently been objected that this is an unsafe method of arguing; but it is a method used in judging of the common events of life, and has often been used by the greatest natural philosophers ... I see no good reason why the views given in this volume should shock the religious feelings of any one. It is satisfactory, as showing how transient such impressions are, to remember that the greatest discovery ever made by man, namely, the law of the attraction of gravity, was also attacked by Leibnitz, "as subversive of natural, and inferentially of revealed, religion." A celebrated author and divine has written to me that "he has gradually learnt to see that it is just as noble a conception of the Deity to believe that He created a few original forms capable of self-development into other and needful forms, as to believe that He required a fresh act of creation to supply the voids caused by the action of His laws."

— Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species (1859)

 

[bhsmte]

It seems that you have difficulty understanding that people have different beliefs than you do.

Indeed and he can even read the minds of those who disagree with him.

 

[AV1611VET]

It seems that you have difficulty understanding that people have different beliefs than you do.

Ya ... that's been brought to our attention some 38,000+ times; like it's supposed to mean something.

Nevermind the fact that every single Christian past, present, and future believes IN THE BEGINNING GOD.

If our differences are supposed to mean something ... what about our agreements?

 

[Loudmouth]

Ya ... that's been brought to our attention some 38,000+ times; like it's supposed to mean something.

Nevermind the fact that every single Christian past, present, and future believes IN THE BEGINNING GOD.

If our differences are supposed to mean something ... what about our agreements?

"IN THE BEGINNING GOD" does not require God to be in charge of making every single mutation over the 3 billion year history of life.

 

[AV1611VET]

"IN THE BEGINNING GOD" does not require God to be in charge of making every single mutation over the 3 billion year history of life.

oh

 

[Speedwell]

Ya ... that's been brought to our attention some 38,000+ times; like it's supposed to mean something.

Nevermind the fact that every single Christian past, present, and future believes IN THE BEGINNING GOD.

If our differences are supposed to mean something ... what about our agreements?

The only meaningful agreement we could possibly have is that Christ died on the cross and rose gain for our sins, but creationists deny the possibility of that agreement.

 

[AV1611VET]

The only meaningful agreement we could possibly have is that Christ died on the cross and rose gain for our sins, but creationists deny the possibility of that agreement.

Actually evolutionists do.

Evolutionists deny we have a sin nature inherited from Adam.

 

[Speedwell]

Actually evolutionists do.

Evolutionists deny we have a sin nature inherited from Adam.

Which is your doctrine, not mine. I can believe I am a sinner in need of redemption without it.

But it's just as I have said--you're digging around trying to find some excuse for not agreeing with me that Christ died for our sins, or rather, some reason for denying that I believe it.

 

[AV1611VET]

But it's just as I have said--you're digging around trying to find some excuse for not agreeing with me that Christ died for our sins, or rather, some reason for denying that I believe it.

 

[HitchSlap]

... what about our agreements?

There's just not enough of them.

 

[AV1611VET]

There's just not enough of them.

Quality over quantity.

 

[HitchSlap]

Quality over quantity.

Would you classify "predestination" as a quantity or quality issue?

 

[AV1611VET]

Would you classify "predestination" as a quantity or quality issue?

Sorry.

I don't tiptoe through the TULIPs like one denomination does.