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Directed Evolution

lucaspa

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This appeared in Science's summary of the month's contents in Science. We have humans acting as the environment for artificial selection -- directed evolution -- to make a new design in plants that we cannot make ourselves.

Another "proof" of natural selection and evolution. Also, notice that "creation" doesn't yield anything new. These new plants for agriculture are only possible if evolution is true.

"Directed Herbicide Resistance
Crops genetically engineered to tolerate glycophosate -- a potent yet cheap and environmentally friendly herbicide trademarked as Roundup -- have been widely successful, allowing farmers to control weeds without damaging cash crops. Glycophosate inhibits a key enzyme that plants use to make amino acids, and resistance to it has been achieved by adding a gene for a similar microbial enzyme that isn't affected by the chemical - thereby creating "Roundup Ready" plants tolerant of the herbicide. Nonetheless, glycophosate still accumulates in these plants and can interfere with other developmental processes. In a report in the 21 May 2004 Science Castle et al. ( http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/304/5674/1151 ) described their use of an alternative technique -- directed evolution -- to develop a different sort of glycophosate-tolerant plant that eliminates this problem by detoxifying glycophosate as it is taken up. The team screened several hundred common microbes and isolated one strain with three genes encoding enzymes that could detoxify glycophosate, though their activities were too low to be commercially effective. In an attempt to create a higher-efficiency enzyme, the researchers fragmented the genes, shuffled the pieces, added them back to bacteria, and then selected those more effective at detoxification. After 11 rounds of selection, they isolated an enzyme that was nearly 10,000 times more efficient. And corn plants outfitted with the gene tolerated six times the glycophosate concentration typically used by farmers, with no apparent affect on health or reproduction. As noted in an accompanying News story by E. Stokstad ( http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/304/5674/1089 ), the commercial potential of the discovery remains to be seen. Still, the study elegantly demonstrates that enzymes with useful yet insufficient activities can be subsequently improved by applying directed evolution."
 

lucaspa

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Nathan Poe said:
[FoC]

but can you provide ABSOLUTE PROOF?!?!?

[/FoC]

:sigh:
Special Pleading on FoC's part. Notice that no one can provide "absolute proof" that God exists, but that doesn't stop FoC from proclaiming it as fact. :)

We don't require everyone's agreement on what is "fact". For instance, we don't require the criminal's agreement the fact that he has committed a crime.

FoC won't ever be convinced. He has a terminal illness of false idol worship. There's nothing we can do for him. All we can do is try to see that he doesn't infect others.
 
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Follower of Christ

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lucaspa said:
Special Pleading on FoC's part. Notice that no one can provide "absolute proof" that God exists, but that doesn't stop FoC from proclaiming it as fact. :)
We don't require everyone's agreement on what is "fact". For instance, we don't require the criminal's agreement the fact that he has committed a crime.
right....... and if hes innocent, who was right ?

FoC won't ever be convinced.
I am utterly convinced that you are incorrect that common decent is truth.

He has a terminal illness of false idol worship. There's nothing we can do for him. All we can do is try to see that he doesn't infect others.
More child psychology ....

Infect ?!?:D



And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world.

He that rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word which I spoke, that
word will judge him in the last day.
For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
(Joh 12:47-49)

---------------------------------


But seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran and worshipped Him, and crying out with a great voice he said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I adjure You by God, do not torment me!" For He was saying to him, "Come out from the man, unclean spirit!"

And He was asking him, "What is your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many."
And he was imploring Him many
times that He would not send them out of the region.
Now there was a large herd of pigs feeding there near the mountain. So all the demons implored Him, saying, "Send us into the pigs, that we may enter them."

And immediately Jesus gave them permission.
And when the unclean spirits came out, they entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, (there were about two thousand) and drowned in the sea.
(Mar 5:6-13)





TELL me LUCASPA.........Do you accept that Jesus Cast out Legion HERE as HIS word PLAINLY shows ????
Was our Lord speaking to demons or madness...?

Infect, indeed ...
Time will show which of us infects the minds of Gods children
 
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Follower of Christ

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Nathan Poe said:
Nah, if I wanted realism I'd end by questioning lucaspa's Christianity. :D
What lucaspa should be concerned about is he receives such a blessing from blasphemers and mockers......

THUMBS UP, Lucaspa........you must be telling the truth for these folks to believe..
 
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zoink

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Being a fundamentalist YEC Biblical literalist I disagree vehemently with much of what lucaspa says, but I do not see the problem with lucaspa or anyone believing differently. As long as they believe the basics; which as far as a can see lucaspa does believe, I do not think it matters how he or anyone else arrives at them. You and I can think that it does not make sense that he can believe the “basics” and seeming disregard other things, but all that matters is he does believe the basics.


We can not see his heart. I would have to guess he is genuine in his desires, and beliefs. Now I can question why lucaspa does not seem to try to spend more of his time attempting to convert the atheists and agnostics, but really it is what God has called him to do and we can not know that. Many do seem to respect him and that is a good thing. For all we know he could be working on them through PMs. :)


So lucaspa not really caring weather Jesus really cast out demons or not does not matter as long as he believes the basics. We can say “If you do not believe such and such not basic thing, how can you believe this basic,” but hey it is his choice.


I would point out this to many Christians as they post:


Luke 17
1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.


We must be careful not to be stumbling blocks, but really we can not judge this. What one considers a stumbling block is between them and God. If one considers something to be a stumbling block then do what ever you can to try to fix it. However, I do not think promoting a belief in single cell to man evolution will cause one to stumble. For some it may open the door that “If this is not true then maybe this is not true” but it is their personal choice to do so.


Sincerely,
zoink
 
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MSBS

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zoink said:
We must be careful not to be stumbling blocks, but really we can not judge this. What one considers a stumbling block is between them and God. If one considers something to be a stumbling block then do what ever you can to try to fix it. However, I do not think promoting a belief in single cell to man evolution will cause one to stumble. For some it may open the door that “If this is not true then maybe this is not true” but it is their personal choice to do so.
That is a nice way of putting it. I look upon creationism is being a huge stumbling block for Christianity in modern society. I think the message of Jesus is more important than a debate over the way to interpret genesis, and I think that this passage from St. Agustine was warning us against this kind of thing:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field in which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion."
Now much of the time we hear (from the likes of Jack Chick and Dr. Dino, not to mention some of our local talent) that "evolution" causes people to lose their faith. I put evolution in quotes because what is really being argued about contains elements from just about all fields of science, but creationists like to put them all together into one big boogie-man package. But I'd argue that the opposite is true-- it's the conflation creationism, a specific interpretation of the Bible that has been shown to be false, and Christianity that leads people to lose faith. When you are raised with the understanding that Christianity = creationism and then learn some basic science, guess what? A crisis of faith can occur. If you stick to the belief that Christianity = creationism you have to throw out either Christianity or science.

But as you put it, this really isn't the important part of the message. Salvation isn't based on how you interpret the bible but on your relationship with Jesus.
 
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Follower of Christ

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zoink said:
Being a fundamentalist YEC Biblical literalist I disagree vehemently with much of what lucaspa says, but I do not see the problem with lucaspa or anyone believing differently. As long as they believe the basics; which as far as a can see lucaspa does believe, I do not think it matters how he or anyone else arrives at them. You and I can think that it does not make sense that he can believe the “basics” and seeming disregard other things, but all that matters is he does believe the basics.


Ask him some questions about those basics......
Start presenting the little miracles of the NT to him and see how much he believes HAPPENED as written.....
Hes is the living proof that my concerns 20 years ago were true.
It doesnt stop at creation or global flood......
Soon even Jesus casting out demons is a lie and a myth as well to these folks...





We can not see his heart. I would have to guess he is genuine in his desires, and beliefs. Now I can question why lucaspa does not seem to try to spend more of his time attempting to convert the atheists and agnostics, but really it is what God has called him to do and we can not know that. Many do seem to respect him and that is a good thing. For all we know he could be working on them through PMs. :)
Listen, I understand your feelings...
Understand tho that we HAVE to draw a line..
The bible WARNS that in the latter days that men would not adhere to sound doctrine.
In this very forum you have folks who are ''christian'' yet say that the virgin birth is MYTH....
You tell me, is that cause for alarm?
Should we ignore it knowing that they are fallin further and further from the truth ?

I could ignore evolution altogether if it were not just the first step in a long road to finding that nearly the whole bible is nothing more than parable..

Would you have me stop caring that lucaspa is not adhering to sound doctrine if he starts to reject the words and teachings of Paul and Christ?

Wouldnt that mean that I loved him less than someone else that I attempt to persuade to return to the teachings of our Lord and our dear brother Paul?



So lucaspa not really caring weather Jesus really cast out demons or not does not matter as long as he believes the basics. We can say “If you do not believe such and such not basic thing, how can you believe this basic,” but hey it is his choice
Do you believe Jesus cast out demons?
If you do then you know that thats what it says.
If you stop believing THAT part of the text, how long before you take the next step and reject even virgin birth...

Unbelief doesnt happen overnite...


I would point out this to many Christians as they post:


Luke 17
1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
And I see any ''christian'' who says ''Jesus didnt REALLY cast out demons, thats not true" as a stumbling block..

Hes TELLING them to REJECT Gods word and to accept HIS fallible understanding that cannot comprehend that this WAS indeed a demon being cast out...



We must be careful not to be stumbling blocks, but really we can not judge this. What one considers a stumbling block is between them and God. If one considers something to be a stumbling block then do what ever you can to try to fix it. However, I do not think promoting a belief in single cell to man evolution will cause one to stumble. For some it may open the door that “If this is not true then maybe this is not true” but it is their personal choice to do so.
Agreed........IF thats as far as it went.....it does not...

There are many Christians here who believe evolution and who also say God didnt flood the world....

So what was Gods promise for if He didnt actually destroy the WORLD with a flood?
Was His covanant to not destroy with a LOCAL flood anymore???.....if so, He lied big time, wouldnt you agree ?




 
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I

Ishmael Borg

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Follower of Christ said:

Agreed........IF thats as far as it went.....it does not...

There are many Christians here who believe evolution and who also say God didnt flood the world....

So what was Gods promise for if He didnt actually destroy the WORLD with a flood?
Was His covanant to not destroy with a LOCAL flood anymore???.....if so, He lied big time, wouldnt you agree ?
Where's the flood evidence?

(edited for murky whoknowswhat)
 
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rebazar

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. THE FLOODS IN MESOPOTAMIA


The river dwellers were accustomed to rivers overflowing their banks at certain seasons; these periodic floods were annual events in their lives. But new perils threatened the valley of Mesopotamia as a result of progressive geologic changes to the north.

For thousands of years after the submergence of the first Eden the mountains about the eastern coast of the Mediterranean and those to the northwest and northeast of Mesopotamia continued to rise. This elevation of the highlands was greatly accelerated about 5000 B.C., and this, together with greatly increased snowfall on the northern mountains, caused unprecedented floods each spring throughout the Euphrates valley. These spring floods grew increasingly worse so that eventually the inhabitants of the river regions were driven to the eastern highlands. For almost a thousand years scores of cities were practically deserted because of these extensive deluges.

Almost five thousand years later, as the Hebrew priests in Babylonian captivity sought to trace the Jewish people back to Adam, they found great difficulty in piecing the story together; and it occurred to one of them to abandon the effort, to let the whole world drown in its wickedness at the time of Noah's flood, and thus to be in a better position to trace Abraham right back to one of the three surviving sons of Noah.

The traditions of a time when water covered the whole of the earth's surface are universal. Many races harbor the story of a world-wide flood some time during past ages. The Biblical story of Noah, the ark, and the flood is an invention of the Hebrew priesthood during the Babylonian captivity. There has never been a universal flood since life was established on Urantia. The only time the surface of the earth was completely covered by water was during those Archeozoic ages before the land had begun to appear.



But Noah really lived; he was a wine maker of Aram, a river settlement near Erech. He kept a written record of the days of the river's rise from year to year. He brought much ridicule upon himself by going up and down the river valley advocating that all houses be built of wood, boat fashion, and that the family animals be put on board each night as the flood season approached. He would go to the neighboring river settlements every year and warn them that in so many days the floods would come. Finally a year came in which the annual floods were greatly augmented by unusually heavy rainfall so that the sudden rise of the waters wiped out the entire village; only Noah and his immediate family were saved in their houseboat.

These floods completed the disruption of Andite civilization. With the ending of this period of deluge, the second garden was no more. Only in the south and among the Sumerians did any trace of the former glory remain.

The remnants of this, one of the oldest civilizations, are to be found in these regions of Mesopotamia and to the northeast and northwest. But still older vestiges of the days of Dalamatia exist under the waters of the Persian Gulf, and the first Eden lies submerged under the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea.


[from The Urantia Book]



Enjoy
 
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Nathan Poe

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Follower of Christ said:
What lucaspa should be concerned about is he receives such a blessing from blasphemers and mockers......

THUMBS UP, Lucaspa........you must be telling the truth for these folks to believe..
Well, he has brought me closer to rejoining Christianity than you ever could, simply by showing that it need not conflict with common sense.

Of course, he takes me one step forward; you take me nine steps back.

THUMBS UP, FoC, for keeping your personal heaven clean of undesirables...
 
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Nathan Poe

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Follower of Christ said:
[/size]

Ask him some questions about those basics......
Start presenting the little miracles of the NT to him and see how much he believes HAPPENED as written.....
Hes is the living proof that my concerns 20 years ago were true.
It doesnt stop at creation or global flood......
Soon even Jesus casting out demons is a lie and a myth as well to these folks...


So what if they didn't happen? haven't you ever had a story told and retold? Doesn't it get more "exciting" with every retelling?

What makes the Bible immune from this?

Listen, I understand your feelings...
Understand tho that we HAVE to draw a line..
The bible WARNS that in the latter days that men would not adhere to sound doctrine.
Except it sounds like lucaspa's doctrine is the sound one. Yours doesn't even pass the laugh test.

In this very forum you have folks who are ''christian'' yet say that the virgin birth is MYTH....
Is the Virgin Birth a Salvation Issue?

You tell me, is that cause for alarm?
No. Would you respect Jesus any less if you found out he came into the world like the rest of us did?

Well, you probably would, but most others would take it in stride...

Should we ignore it knowing that they are fallin further and further from the truth ?
Which truth? That Jesus was the son of God, come to Earth to forgive man of their sins?

When "Christians" start doubting that, push the panic button...


I could ignore evolution altogether if it were not just the first step in a long road to finding that nearly the whole bible is nothing more than parable..
Note that none of this has anything to do with whether evolution is true or not. You don't even care.

You know, FoC... there is such a thing as "unpleasant truth."

You reject it because of the possible consequences: The demolition of Biblical literalism as a "faith."

Would you have me stop caring that lucaspa is not adhering to sound doctrine if he starts to reject the words and teachings of Paul and Christ?
So when did Christ teach that he was born of a virgin?

Which verse did Paul stree that this is the axis on which Christianity turns?

And who was more obsessed with Biblical minutiae? Christ, Paul, or the Pharasees?

Wouldnt that mean that I loved him less than someone else that I attempt to persuade to return to the teachings of our Lord and our dear brother Paul?
I've yet to see you show love for lucaspa... or anyone else, but maybe I missed that post.



Do you believe Jesus cast out demons?
If you do then you know that thats what it says.
If you stop believing THAT part of the text, how long before you take the next step and reject even virgin birth...
Again, who cares?

What is your obsession with the virgin birth?

Please explain how this bit of seeming trivia ties all of Christianity together...

Unbelief doesnt happen overnite...
No it doesn't. But false prophets can speed it along.

It was Carico who sped me from Agnostic to Atheist. You could've done the job in 1/10 the time.

In any case, what do you care? Haven't you said before that you're not trying to change anyone's mind?


And I see any ''christian'' who says ''Jesus didnt REALLY cast out demons, thats not true" as a stumbling block..
Well, that's your block, and you're the only one stumbling over it.

Hes TELLING them to REJECT Gods word and to accept HIS fallible understanding that cannot comprehend that this WAS indeed a demon being cast out...
One question before you drag God into this:

Who wrote that particular event in the Bible?

An infallible God, or a fallible man?


Agreed........IF thats as far as it went.....it does not...

There are many Christians here who believe evolution and who also say God didnt flood the world....
And yet they remain good and faithful Christians. Fancy that!

So what was Gods promise for if He didnt actually destroy the WORLD with a flood?
Was His covanant to not destroy with a LOCAL flood anymore???.....if so, He lied big time, wouldnt you agree ?
Well, you've already accepted God as a liar, a trickster (2 Thessolonians, anyone?), and a raving psychopath, so why is this a shock?
 
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zoink

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I probably should have PMed my thoughts to you instead of posting them, but since they are here I will answer here. As such these comments are mainly towards Follower of Christ, some people may wish to challenge what I believe, but for now you will probably not get much of a response in the forums. Also, sorry lucaspa for hijacking your thread, if you wish I will delete my posts, and put little smiles in.


Follower of Christ said:
You tell me, is that cause for alarm?
Yes it is very disturbing when they begin abandoning doctrinal issues. To me these would have to with salvation and how a Christian should live there live.


Follower of Christ said:
Should we ignore it knowing that they are fallin further and further from the truth ?
Nope, I think you should keep taking on these issues as long as you feel lead. I just think one can still be a Christian but reject most of the scriptures. Do I think it is wise or right? No.


Follower of Christ said:
Would you have me stop caring that lucaspa is not adhering to sound doctrine if he starts to reject the words and teachings of Paul and Christ?
No I would not, as I said as long as you feel lead. When he begins rejecting issues that Paul and Christ say are sin then I get concerned.


Follower of Christ said:

Wouldnt that mean that I loved him less than someone else that I attempt to persuade to return to the teachings of our Lord and our dear brother Paul?
Yes I think it would mean you love him less. If you think someone in danger of going to hell, stay on them but do not push them away. I do not know were the line is, but I trust God will let you know.


Follower of Christ said:
Do you believe Jesus cast out demons?
Yes, no doubt in my mind.


Follower of Christ said:
So what was Gods promise for if He didnt actually destroy the WORLD with a flood?
Why I take the flood literally, however if someone can rationalize that, then I think they can still be a Christian.


Follower of Christ said:
Was His covanant to not destroy with a LOCAL flood anymore???.....if so, He lied big time, wouldnt you agree ?
Nope. Yep


I probably fall almost exactly in line with you Follower of Christ.

I do not like what lucaspa and many other say here. I would love them to be convinced and believe as we do. Do I think some of there views can lead people to stumble? Yes, but I do not think they specifically are the stumbling block. It is someone own week faith that is at fault. I feel that I do not want to even come close to a stumbling block, so I try to do what ever I can to avoid it.


I do not really care what people believe as long as they are saved. I sincerely hope lucaspa is working on people like Nathan Poe. If he could win him over and possibly a few others then he can believe that unicorns, or iggy the elf (Or what ever some atheists like to compare our God to) are angles. He can take care of the people who do not want to take a more literal view of the Bible, and you and some of the others and maybe I (If I ever can get all my stuff together, and get the nerve to post) can take care of those who need the more literal view.


I have had the questions that people bring up against my more literal interpretations answered to my satisfaction. I think some people need to hear these things, and there are those here who are doing that.


The answer to most of your question can be answered by what I said here:

[QUOTE=zoink]If one considers something to be a stumbling block then do what ever you can to try to fix it. [/QUOTE]

That is why I said that. If you deem these to be stumbling blocks than keep it up. If it goes against your conscience to not respond then it would be sin not too. Though you will be here awhile. ;) I do not like sometime how you do things but I do like what you are trying to do. So as far as I am concerned keep it up.

I guess I just wanted to make a point that one can still be a Christian, and believe things we may consider very wrong as long as they are not basic doctrinal issues. Sorry I did not PM you about this stuff, I did not think of it at the start of things.


Sincerely,
zoink
 
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MSBS

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Nathan Poe said:
Well, he has brought me closer to rejoining Christianity than you ever could, simply by showing that it need not conflict with common sense.

Of course, he takes me one step forward; you take me nine steps back.

THUMBS UP, FoC, for keeping your personal heaven clean of undesirables...
I'd say it was the fundies that brought me back to Christianity-- not because of their views on theology or science, but because their lack of reason and credulous belief in just about anything that they think supports their narrow view. It made me realize that they aren't any different than people that buy in to conspiracy theories, UFOs, cryptozoology, or the like. Just like I disregard the opinions of those people, just like I disregard the opinions of people that held to a flat earth or geocentric solar system and used the bible to support it, and just like I disregard the opinions of people that use the bible to support their racists views, I can disregard what these people say because I came to realize that the message of Christianity had nothing to do with what they where saying.

All the stuff that we go round and round with here is of such a small matter in the message that it almost brings me to despair that many of the literists are so wrapped up in it that they constantly question whether people are really Christian if they venture out of the tight little box they want to put God in. :sigh:
 
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lucaspa

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Follower of Christ said:
right....... and if hes innocent, who was right ?
Notice the "if". We still don't require the criminal's consent to convict him.

I am utterly convinced that you are incorrect that common decent is truth.
I know. But you can't ever provide what science should be able to provide: evidence to falsify common ancestry.

FoC, plenty of people have tried to falsify common ancestry. All have failed. Yes, you can live in that nice land of Denial, but your denial of common ancestry has no more weight than Charles Manson's denial of his guilt.

More child psychology
You never say the psychology is wrong. So this must be saying you are a child. :) OK by me.

Infect ?!?
Yes, infect and cause them to spiritually die. I can't prevent your spiritual death, FoC. The apostasy and false idol worship are too far advanced. As evidenced in your next quote. But I can keep you from passing the disease on to other people and killing them.


TELL me LUCASPA.........Do you accept that Jesus Cast out Legion HERE as HIS word PLAINLY shows ????
Was our Lord speaking to demons or madness...?
Notice the emphasis on "HIS word". FoC, stop worshipping your reading of the Bible and start worshipping God. When you do, then you will see how nonsensical this question is.

Time will show which of us infects the minds of Gods children
Yes, time will. And if it is your infection, I will mourn the loss of those souls to God.
 
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lucaspa

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Follower of Christ said:
What lucaspa should be concerned about is he receives such a blessing from blasphemers and mockers.
When has Nathan blaphemed or mocked Christianity. He has disagreed with your god, but since your god isn't God, that's not a big problem.

Tell me, FoC, is the real problem here that you are simply jealous because people listen to me and not you?
 
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