Difficult talking with theists!!

[undoing]

Ok, so I'm less than inspired by the operation of this site. Firstly the ease of offense making. ie. no debate (disagreement, etc, etc); no posting personal comments, however nice, where those comments show a potentially unwanted perspective of that person to them.
What is it about getting along with christians that is so difficult?
I'm annoyed by the constant need for theists to talk about god. Not because I find "God" offensive, but because for all my patience and tireless efforts of respectful responding, and listening efforts seem to be for nothing once that person realises that I'm not convertable (to them), that my interest is in them as a person (and them where they aren't talking about "God", "Jesus", etc).
Does anyone know where another christian forum is where genuine discussion takes place that is not focussed on atheism as some sort of "Satanic movement", etc?

Theists are extreemly trying, but I'm trying to learn how to deal with them, I need to learn more tollerance for their belief system. How do you tolerate, endure, and maintain relationships where "God" is constantly 'offered' for rationality?!

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'm annoyed by the constant need for theists to talk about god.

MY BROTHER,

Strange complaint that! What in the world else would a theist be motivated to talk about besides He Who represents the totality of the theist's life?

Not because I find "God" offensive, but because for all my patience and tireless efforts of respectful responding, and listening efforts seem to be for nothing once that person realises that I'm not convertable (to them), that my interest is in them as a person (and them where they aren't talking about "God", "Jesus", etc).

You fail to grasp that ""God", "Jesus", etc." is who they are as a person. If this puts you off, find another atheist to converse with. Duh!

Does anyone know where another christian forum is where genuine discussion takes place that is not focussed on atheism as some sort of "Satanic movement", etc?

If you are not interested in God, Jesus, Christian beliefs, etc., how will another christian forum solve your problem?

Theists are extreemly trying, but I'm trying to learn how to deal with them, I need to learn more tollerance for their belief system. How do you tolerate, endure, and maintain relationships where "God" is constantly 'offered' for rationality?!

My point exactly--if you have no interest in the things which theists hold near and dear, why not find a Site that caters to atheists instead of complaining that your needs aren't being met because theists have one-track minds--a fact which most theists would readily and proudly admit to.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[undoing]

Thanks Eph, I'm here attempting to better myself with theist interactions, how would you suppose that possible in an atheist forum? Further, I am posting here and hoping for theist responses as well as atheistic.
Do you ever have a concern for the person who doesn't think the way you do, that conversations are much more difficult for the other person than they are you, that we also feel hurt that for you to care about us, we must adhere to your rigid views?!
These are only rhetorical and should not require answers, if they trigger a response, I'm happy to listen

 

[ephraimanesti]

Thanks Eph, I'm here attempting to better myself with theist interactions, how would you suppose that possible in an atheist forum? Further, I am posting here and hoping for theist responses as well as atheistic.

MY BROTHER,

Obviously i am not understanding you. i hear you saying that you want theist responses but are complaining that they always have to do with God. What else would you expect a theist to be preoccupied with. GOD IS EVERYTHING TO US. What is it you are looking for?

Do you ever have a concern for the person who doesn't think the way you do, that conversations are much more difficult for the other person than they are you, that we also feel hurt that for you to care about us, we must adhere to your rigid views?!

My views are based upon God being everything to me and my life being surrendered into His Hands to do with as He, in His Grace-filled Love, wills.

Caring for you, as is caring for ALL of Abba's children is a given. But how better can that care be expressed than pointing you towards God, the only source of true happiness in my experience?--and i've spent a lifetime seeking elsewhere and everywhere and come up empty.

These are only rhetorical and should not require answers, if they trigger a response, I'm happy to listen

Well, of course they require answers--i'm just not understanding the questions. (Possibly i'm on the debit side for brain cells given a few years seeking for happiness and enlightenment in psychoactivce substances before finding--or being found by--God. Upps, there i go again!)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[undoing]

MY BROTHER,

Obviously i am not understanding you. i hear you saying that you want theist responses but are complaining that they always have to do with God. What else would you expect a theist to be preoccupied with. GOD IS EVERYTHING TO US. What is it you are looking for?

I'm trying to find some middle ground between myself and strong theists. I had imagined it possible to find other areas for discussion besides "God", the bible, or on existence. Maybe your posts do not reflect the majority of christians, I sure hope not (if you're suggesting that there is no conversation outside the realms of religion).

My views are based upon God being everything to me and my life being surrendered into His Hands to do with as He, in His Grace-filled Love, wills.

Here's an excellent example, if I may "borrow" this paragraph: I'm all for you believing in this, I'm okay with you having this belief and I'm not interesting in "going after" your views what so ever; is it possible from here to continue talking (all God aside) without making faith the central topic?

Caring for you, as is caring for ALL of Abba's children is a given. But how better can that care be expressed than pointing you towards God, the only source of true happiness in my experience?--and i've spent a lifetime seeking elsewhere and everywhere and come up empty.

Which religion does "Abba" belong to? Is it a joke about a band? Abba was nowhere near god status.

Well, of course they require answers--i'm just not understanding the questions. (Possibly i'm on the debit side for brain cells given a few years seeking for happiness and enlightenment in psychoactivce substances before finding--or being found by--God. Upps, there i go again!)

Don't sweat, my english isn't the most refined to be found online (or in RL for the matter). If you're saying that psychoactive drug use was followed immediately by your faith in religion, then I might be speaking with the right person.
Let me ask you something here: Do you look down on those who live the way you did, before falling into "God's" grace?; Do you see non believers as having any allegiance with "Satan"? What's your take on the phrase: "Whoever's not with us is against us"??

I appriciate your honesty by the way, I think you're challenging me - which is a very good thing; I think I have an issue with accepting the amount of importance religious people put on their beliefs . . . I'll have a better idea once I get past this

 

[ephraimanesti]

I'm trying to find some middle ground between myself and strong theists.

MY BROTHER--good morning!

In my opinion, there is none--and i still don't understand why you so desperately want there to be. As Scripture states, "What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?" (II Corinthians 6:15b) What could we talk about outside of that reality?

I had imagined it possible to find other areas for discussion besides "God", the bible, or on existence. Maybe your posts do not reflect the majority of christians, I sure hope not (if you're suggesting that there is no conversation outside the realms of religion).

You will indeed find that my posts probably do not reflect the majority of Christians. That is not my goal. Whether that is good or bad is for God alone to judge. My point was NOT that "small talk" between Christians and atheists is impossible but that it is just that--small talk and, in my opinion, time wasted. What is the point?

The only meaningful difference between Christians and atheists is their belief/disbelief in God. Why would you seek out Christians in particular to talk about the Super Bowl, fly tying, Gobi Desert weather patterns, or the cuisine at your favorite restaurant?

In all honesty, my only reason for responding to your post at all was the fact that your "struggle" is with the fact that all Christians want to talk about is God. Well, yeah. There is nothing else with sufficient importance to supplant Him. To what other purpose would a Christian web site be put? Come on, now!

Here's an excellent example, if I may "borrow" this paragraph: I'm all for you believing in this, I'm okay with you having this belief and I'm not interesting in "going after" your views what so ever; is it possible from here to continue talking (all God aside) without making faith the central topic?

i am sure that you will find Christians who will acquiesce to your request. i am not one of them. Life's too short! i talk to atheists all the time about God and my beliefs, but when it is made clear that this is not a welcome topic of conversation, i move on. Not hard feelings/no regrets.

Which religion does "Abba" belong to? Is it a joke about a band? Abba was nowhere near god status.

"Abba" is Jesus' word for His Father. It is aramaic and roughly translates "daddy" or "papa."

Your not knowing this indicates that you haven't read the Bible in any depth. How is it so easy for you to casually dismiss something so important that you haven't investigated in any meaningful manner?

WE NEED TO TALK! (Just kidding.)

Don't sweat, my english isn't the most refined to be found online (or in RL for the matter).

Your English is at least as good as mine. It is your logic and motivation i'm having trouble with.

If you're saying that psychoactive drug use was followed immediately by your faith in religion, then I might be speaking with the right person.[/quote]
No i'm not saying that at all. My arrival at Christianity is the outcome of a lifetime of searching for the Ultimate Truth. The search began in the 60's with my worshipping the "trinity" of those days--drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll by worshipping as per Timothy Leary's formula--tune in, turn on, drop out.

When i finally reached a dead-end--in more ways than one!--about 20 years latter (i'm a slow learner!), is when my "vision quest" began in earnest. i investigated all the extant world religions for which information was available and got caught up in several for a couple of years each--primarily Buddhist and Taoism--in their various incarnations until, again, i reached dead ends far short of ultimate Truth.

And then God, in answer to my desperate prayers, led me into the Light.

So, no, there were a bunch of years--about half a lifetime--between Timothy Leary and Jesus Christ. (Where you hoping, perhaps, for a "stoner hallucinating "god" story to chuckle over?)

Let me ask you something here: Do you look down on those who live the way you did, before falling into "God's" grace?; Do you see non believers as having any allegiance with "Satan"?

How in the world could i "look down" on these suffering ones? i've been there and done that--how can i possibly judge them for falling into the same trap that i did. They are just as much Abba's children as i am, and He grieves over them exactly as He did over me.

Something is twisted in your understanding of Christianity and Christians to even consider such a thing! It is only by God's Grace that i was delivered--who am i to look down on them? Why would you think that i did?

And again, how can i look upon them as "having any allegiance with 'Satan.' " i never did, why should i so look at them? Unbelievers are the evil one's dupes and i'm sure it amuses it to toy with and torment them, but if they had any actual allegiance with satan, they would know that God also must exist and, hopefully, would choose light over darkness. No belief is not necessarily better than a wrong belief--at least with a wrong belief there is room to move and change. With no belief in anything, the unbeliever is dead in the water, and a motionless boat cannot be steered.

What's your take on the phrase: "Whoever's not with us is against us"??

The opposite is also stated, "He who is not against us is for us" (Matthew 12:30), the point being that there is no possibility of neutrality--a choice between light and darkness MUST, at some point, be made. Refusal of belief is, in itself, a choice.

I appriciate your honesty by the way, I think you're challenging me - which is a very good thing; I think I have an issue with accepting the amount of importance religious people put on their beliefs . . . I'll have a better idea once I get past this

i understand that for one who has chosen disbelief, the belief of others would indeed be frustrating. Sorry about that!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

Ok, so I'm less than inspired by the operation of this site. Firstly the ease of offense making. ie. no debate (disagreement, etc, etc); no posting personal comments, however nice, where those comments show a potentially unwanted perspective of that person to them.
What is it about getting along with christians that is so difficult?
I'm annoyed by the constant need for theists to talk about god. Not because I find "God" offensive, but because for all my patience and tireless efforts of respectful responding, and listening efforts seem to be for nothing once that person realises that I'm not convertable (to them), that my interest is in them as a person (and them where they aren't talking about "God", "Jesus", etc).
Does anyone know where another christian forum is where genuine discussion takes place that is not focussed on atheism as some sort of "Satanic movement", etc?

Theists are extreemly trying, but I'm trying to learn how to deal with them, I need to learn more tollerance for their belief system. How do you tolerate, endure, and maintain relationships where "God" is constantly 'offered' for rationality?!

Dude, what is it that you find difficult when conversing with Christians, we aren't aliens and I am certain that you have conversed with a Christian before in your life.

I am a committed Christian and I have Muslim mates, Hindu mates, Buddhist mates, Atheist mates and I am a really easy going guy.

God is not the only topic I like to discuss, when I am amongst my Christian friends we love talking about God, but we must also show respect to those who do not wish to discuss the matter.

My friend, do not paint us all with the same brush, their are Christians who claim to be Christian but their deeds and words state otherwise.

Anyone can claim they are anything, does not make it so and in regards to Christianity we have a great guide "You shall know them by their fruits" which basically means that if a Christian acts in a way that contradicts the spiritual fruits, they are hypocrites.

 

[undoing]

Dude, what is it that you find difficult when conversing with Christians, we aren't aliens and I am certain that you have conversed with a Christian before in your life.

Your certainty has been misplaced, my father is a born again christian, and I myself went to a christian school in primary years and was during that time a christian myself. My difficulty has been in my recent "family" reunion whereby I come to see "my dad". I no longer have a father - I wish I'd never gone to visit or learned anything on the flaws of Christianity - yet here we are!

I am a committed Christian and I have Muslim mates, Hindu mates, Buddhist mates, Atheist mates and I am a really easy going guy.

I like easy going, wish it were universal quality too, good one buddy, I reckon there'll be no issues between us then. Too easy

God is not the only topic I like to discuss, when I am amongst my Christian friends we love talking about God, but we must also show respect to those who do not wish to discuss the matter.

That's awesome too. Sometimes I suppose there have been times when I wish conversation could have completely bypassed religion and haven't had my desires respected through biggotry, etc. That's life, when it's ongoing, it's what they call chronic. I hate certain individuals now because of the actions of an extreeme minority. I now need to develop a sense of understanding and acceptance for those who don't deserve the negative emotions which are inspired by above mentioned.

My friend, do not paint us all with the same brush, their are Christians who claim to be Christian but their deeds and words state otherwise.

I am doing my uttmost to better myself for the better of the general Christian community. I am beyond "redemption", but at least I can learn to understand a different community as individuals and learn to treat Christians for their individual differences.

Anyone can claim they are anything, does not make it so and in regards to Christianity we have a great guide "You shall know them by their fruits" which basically means that if a Christian acts in a way that contradicts the spiritual fruits, they are hypocrites.

I completely relate to this statement because I am hypocritical myself. I have come to understand that a person doesn't adhere to their beliefs in all situations, people vary their responses to any situation they're confronted. I don't like how some refuse to address this, even during the "regression" simultaneously rationalising: "this is correct because . . .".

 

[ephraimanesti]

I am beyond "redemption", but at least I can learn to understand a different community as individuals and learn to treat Christians for their individual differences.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

If i may interject--NO ONE is "beyond redemption."

Abba's Loving and Grace-filled invitation goes out to ALL--24/7. If you have chosen to ignore that call or have spurned it for whatever reason, this is a sad and lamentable use of God's gift of freewill on your part--a conscious and willful decline of Abba's proffered gift of His Love.

However, NO ONE is "beyond redemption," and to state that you are so is to misapprehend the extent of God's love for you and, as a consequence, to misspeak.

God's Love for you continues unabated in any event.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[undoing]

MY BROTHER--good morning!

In my opinion, there is none--and i still don't understand why you so desperately want there to be. As Scripture states, "What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?" (II Corinthians 6:15b) What could we talk about outside of that reality?

I would say: "More than you seem to care to admit".

You will indeed find that my posts probably do not reflect the majority of Christians. That is not my goal. Whether that is good or bad is for God alone to judge. My point was NOT that "small talk" between Christians and atheists is impossible but that it is just that--small talk and, in my opinion, time wasted. What is the point?

Let's assume that not everything which doesn't revolve around the scriptures or "God" is all which matters, if just for a moment. If everything were created by an all powerful being then why would any conversation about those creations be inferior and therefore not worthy for conversing over??
The logic is almost non existent. For one, I don't say that non "God" topics have any difference in importance, just that they exist, that they are available, for my second reason, I only say that limiting the conversation to "God" alone is very narrow and can be frustrating to someone who wishes to get to know an individual, outside of religious views. These are the main concerns, ask yourself and give yourself an honest answer on this.

The only meaningful difference between Christians and atheists is their belief/disbelief in God. Why would you seek out Christians in particular to talk about the Super Bowl, fly tying, Gobi Desert weather patterns, or the cuisine at your favorite restaurant?

There is no seeking out for specific conversations, only seeking here, in order to understand Christians and learn how to communicate more effectively with them - for about the fifth time.

In all honesty, my only reason for responding to your post at all was the fact that your "struggle" is with the fact that all Christians want to talk about is God. Well, yeah. There is nothing else with sufficient importance to supplant Him. To what other purpose would a Christian web site be put? Come on, now!

My question wasn't to do with the purpose of establishing an online Christian community, that is ridiculous - are you attempting to throw me off?

i am sure that you will find Christians who will acquiesce to your request. i am not one of them. Life's too short! i talk to atheists all the time about God and my beliefs, but when it is made clear that this is not a welcome topic of conversation, i move on. Not hard feelings/no regrets.

I don't feel the need to say Christianity is off topic. I only make it clear that I'm not going to be converted into Christianity. What I do muse over though, is on whether there are other topics which can interest a Christian enough for discussion, knowing full well that the person they are talking with is not converted/convertable, while still maintaining ordinary conversation and human relationships . . .

"Abba" is Jesus' word for His Father. It is aramaic and roughly translates "daddy" or "papa."

Your not knowing this indicates that you haven't read the Bible in any depth. How is it so easy for you to casually dismiss something so important that you haven't investigated in any meaningful manner?

WE NEED TO TALK! (Just kidding.)

I have read the bible in more depth than many Christians I've come across. They claim that it can't be read like a book, but I know these comments are made by the same people who also say things like "I hate reading", etc.

Your English is at least as good as mine. It is your logic and motivation i'm having trouble with.
No i'm not saying that at all. My arrival at Christianity is the outcome of a lifetime of searching for the Ultimate Truth. The search began in the 60's with my worshipping the "trinity" of those days--drugs, sex, and rock-n-roll by worshipping as per Timothy Leary's formula--tune in, turn on, drop out.

When i finally reached a dead-end--in more ways than one!--about 20 years latter (i'm a slow learner!), is when my "vision quest" began in earnest. i investigated all the extant world religions for which information was available and got caught up in several for a couple of years each--primarily Buddhist and Taoism--in their various incarnations until, again, i reached dead ends far short of ultimate Truth.

And then God, in answer to my desperate prayers, led me into the Light.

So, no, there were a bunch of years--about half a lifetime--between Timothy Leary and Jesus Christ. (Where you hoping, perhaps, for a "stoner hallucinating "god" story to chuckle over?)

Honestly, I was attempting to make a comparison to another person who was able to look down on someone who'd been less rebellious in his own life yet was subject to the scorn of another who'd eventually found "Christ". This is the same person who abandoned a son years earlier (before "Christ"), then abandoned his son again ("after being ""saved"").

How in the world could i "look down" on these suffering ones? i've been there and done that--how can i possibly judge them for falling into the same trap that i did. They are just as much Abba's children as i am, and He grieves over them exactly as He did over me.

Yeah, I can't understand those who do such things.

Something is twisted in your understanding of Christianity and Christians to even consider such a thing! It is only by God's Grace that i was delivered--who am i to look down on them? Why would you think that i did?

Then it's the understanding which I've been exposed to, nothing more.

And again, how can i look upon them as "having any allegiance with 'Satan.' " i never did, why should i so look at them? Unbelievers are the evil one's dupes and i'm sure it amuses it to toy with and torment them, but if they had any actual allegiance with satan, they would know that God also must exist and, hopefully, would choose light over darkness. No belief is not necessarily better than a wrong belief--at least with a wrong belief there is room to move and change. With no belief in anything, the unbeliever is dead in the water, and a motionless boat cannot be steered.

Ok, so you hold none of "Satan's" evil against those who are non-believers then?

The opposite is also stated, "He who is not against us is for us" (Matthew 12:30), the point being that there is no possibility of neutrality--a choice between light and darkness MUST, at some point, be made. Refusal of belief is, in itself, a choice.

You remind of the despicable Persians who sent a messenger into Sparta and whom delivered the message: "All the Persian king asks is that you bow before him, and all he offers will be yours".

i understand that for one who has chosen disbelief, the belief of others would indeed be frustrating. Sorry about that!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Not frustrating, just irritating when the same topic continues to be covered, seemingly as though you think a reapproach in every angle is somehow a new conversation.

 

[undoing]

MY DEAR BROTHER,

If i may interject--NO ONE is "beyond redemption."

What if I were? How can you say with all certainty that I could possibly be converted? Because afterall, isn't a fact that the Christian faith hold that no person makes it into heaven without accepting the "Lord Jesus" died for my sins?!

Abba's Loving and Grace-filled invitation goes out to ALL--24/7. If you have chosen to ignore that call or have spurned it for whatever reason, this is a sad and lamentable use of God's gift of freewill on your part--a conscious and willful decline of Abba's proffered gift of His Love.

I don't see nor hear his love to any compass point I turn. I have the heresay of Christians who would wish me to associate "His" love, etc with any good fortune I happen to have, that is it though.

However, NO ONE is "beyond redemption," and to state that you are so is to misapprehend the extent of God's love for you and, as a consequence, to misspeak.

I am beyond redemption, I wish I were nieve enough to succumb to the pipe dream, but unfortunately my brain has been pounded with the truth for too long. I can't switch that off you know. Like your stubborness for faith, my stubborness is innate too.

God's Love for you continues unabated in any event.

[/b] I have little knowledge of this love outside the societal implications of this concept, I wish there were some sign to suggest something beyone human intervention, however, I know better than to think I have a soul, etc. I know what happens after I die.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

Kind regards to you, these are my personal views.

 

[Jnwaco]

Hey undoing!

I have read through C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity a couple of times and he makes a good point about the mystery of God and salvation.

Not all people have the same propensity for doing good. I think that's obvious, some people are naturally more generous than others. Likewise, belief is more difficult for some than others. There's no doubt about that, either. I think God knows your propensity for belief and understands each person's difficulty, so that to some for whom trust in God is difficult, a little trust despite the heavy doubt is sufficient. If anything, the God we worship is loving and understanding, and knows your difficulties.

 

[undoing]

Hey undoing!

I have read through C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity a couple of times and he makes a good point about the mystery of God and salvation.

Not all people have the same propensity for doing good. I think that's obvious, some people are naturally more generous than others. Likewise, belief is more difficult for some than others. There's no doubt about that, either. I think God knows your propensity for belief and understands each person's difficulty, so that to some for whom trust in God is difficult, a little trust despite the heavy doubt is sufficient. If anything, the God we worship is loving and understanding, and knows your difficulties.

Hey thanks for your reply Jnwaco, all I really got was blah, blah, blah "my god gets you".
I've attempted to tell you where I stand and how I can't have any feelings either way until I have a physical reason to. I say that I trust in subjective experience, and still you say that I need to subscribe in order to receive deliverance; what's wrong with having a God who is capable of understanding all? Maybe it's possible that many atheists will make it into heaven before many Christians will. Why should God care if I subscribe to one of the numerous belief systems on the Earth and not to trully care about whether I am doing what I believe to be righteous?
I'm feeling rather ignored by you.

 

[Jnwaco]

Hey thanks for your reply Jnwaco, all I really got was blah, blah, blah "my god gets you".
I've attempted to tell you where I stand and how I can't have any feelings either way until I have a physical reason to. I say that I trust in subjective experience, and still you say that I need to subscribe in order to receive deliverance; what's wrong with having a God who is capable of understanding all? Maybe it's possible that many atheists will make it into heaven before many Christians will. Why should God care if I subscribe to one of the numerous belief systems on the Earth and not to trully care about whether I am doing what I believe to be righteous?
I'm feeling rather ignored by you.

Well, as Christians, we believe that every man is sinful, and not really worthy of saving on our own steam. It gets into the difficult question "how good do I really have to be?"

There's a story about two brothers who were sinners. Horrible sinners. Anything vile you could imagine, they did. Theft, lying, stealing, sexual immorality, mocked God... they were true sinners to the bone. One of the brothers died. The other brother went to several preachers who declined to perform the funeral, knowing the nature of the two men and the difficulty in performing such a funeral. Finally, the brother told one priest, I will pay you a lot of money if you will just perform my brother's funeral. The priest said yes. The brother then said, oh, and can you please refer to him as a saint at the funeral. The priest also knew the nature of the two men, and their deeds, so he thought about it for a minute and said "Yes, I can do that."

At the funeral, the priest said, "The man you see in the coffin was a sinner to the bone. He lied, cheated, stole, engaged in sexual promiscuity, mocked God..... but compared to his brother, he was a saint!

So for Christians, it's recognizing that no matter how good we are, we're still imperfect and in need of a savior. We believe the savior to be Jesus.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[undoing]

Well, as Christians, we believe that every man is sinful, and not really worthy of saving on our own steam. It gets into the difficult question "how good do I really have to be?"

There's a story about two brothers who were sinners. Horrible sinners. Anything vile you could imagine, they did. Theft, lying, stealing, sexual immorality, mocked God... they were true sinners to the bone. One of the brothers died. The other brother went to several preachers who declined to perform the funeral, knowing the nature of the two men and the difficulty in performing such a funeral. Finally, the brother told one priest, I will pay you a lot of money if you will just perform my brother's funeral. The priest said yes. The brother then said, oh, and can you please refer to him as a saint at the funeral. The priest also knew the nature of the two men, and their deeds, so he thought about it for a minute and said "Yes, I can do that."

At the funeral, the priest said, "The man you see in the coffin was a sinner to the bone. He lied, cheated, stole, engaged in sexual promiscuity, mocked God..... but compared to his brother, he was a saint!

So for Christians, it's recognizing that no matter how good we are, we're still imperfect and in need of a savior. We believe the savior to be Jesus.

Hope that makes sense.

That 'bad to the bone' story does nothing for me. My own life has been subject to much worse than that told of the "two brothers"; my own "family" whom are b.a.christian has done worse than that which you outline.
Another reason why I can't relate to biblical stories, they're too mild and irrelevant to apply to my own Real Life situations/past to have any impact on me. Your peddling goods which are of no use to me.

 

[Jnwaco]

It was just to illustrate a point. If God is just, why should he not punish those who rebel?

 

[undoing]

It was just to illustrate a point. If God is just, why should he not punish those who rebel?

To tell you the truth, I don't believe you are discriminating between rebellion and nonconformity correctly.

 

[Jnwaco]

To tell you the truth, I don't believe you are discriminating between rebellion and nonconformity correctly.

Well, either will suffice, because they both make us imperfect, whether the attitude is one that strives to do what they ought to do vs. one who deliberately seeks to not conform to God's moral law. Both entail a willing disobedience at some point or another, if that's what you mean.

 

[Dragons87]

Ok, so I'm less than inspired by the operation of this site. Firstly the ease of offense making. ie. no debate (disagreement, etc, etc); no posting personal comments, however nice, where those comments show a potentially unwanted perspective of that person to them.
What is it about getting along with christians that is so difficult?
I'm annoyed by the constant need for theists to talk about god. Not because I find "God" offensive, but because for all my patience and tireless efforts of respectful responding, and listening efforts seem to be for nothing once that person realises that I'm not convertable (to them), that my interest is in them as a person (and them where they aren't talking about "God", "Jesus", etc).
Does anyone know where another christian forum is where genuine discussion takes place that is not focussed on atheism as some sort of "Satanic movement", etc?

Theists are extreemly trying, but I'm trying to learn how to deal with them, I need to learn more tollerance for their belief system. How do you tolerate, endure, and maintain relationships where "God" is constantly 'offered' for rationality?!

Sir, all I can say is that we all have room for improvement. In the context of this forum (which is a very, very tiny slice of Christendom and unrepresentative), I find more enjoyment out of discussing opposing viewpoints with atheists and other non-Christians of the same temperament (Nicknack28, hikersong and Wicked Willow spring into mind) than supporting viewpoints espoused in a less amiable manner by posters whose faith I share.

Whatever happens in the context of this board shouldn't be expanded to represent the whole of Christian opinion and manner. In fact, I regret that the general Christian opinion and manner isn't replicated on this board, but who am I to judge? I only strive to ensure my own actions are consistent with my belief, not others.

I do hope you can find enjoyment out of this board.

 

[undoing]

Well, either will suffice, because they both make us imperfect, whether the attitude is one that strives to do what they ought to do vs. one who deliberately seeks to not conform to God's moral law. Both entail a willing disobedience at some point or another, if that's what you mean.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were saying that any human quality is imperfect (according to God), and thereby all imperfect attributions are equally interchangable. So you could say that my conscientiousness is a sin against God and that by default makes me 'God's enemy'??!
Utter nonsense my friend. Passive resistence is not the same as siding with the enemy. It's just a position (for me) of whether I agree/believe, or not. Do you ever say "I choose to love this person because I want to", only to find that it's more of a chore than you actually feeling that love you thought you could express? I can't just choose to believe in something in order to be "good" (according to God, whom I Don't Believe In). From my perspective, I'm not angering "God" because his rules are like human inventions to me.

Sir, all I can say is that we all have room for improvement. In the context of this forum (which is a very, very tiny slice of Christendom and unrepresentative), I find more enjoyment out of discussing opposing viewpoints with atheists and other non-Christians of the same temperament (Nicknack28, hikersong and Wicked Willow spring into mind) than supporting viewpoints espoused in a less amiable manner by posters whose faith I share.

Whatever happens in the context of this board shouldn't be expanded to represent the whole of Christian opinion and manner. In fact, I regret that the general Christian opinion and manner isn't replicated on this board, but who am I to judge? I only strive to ensure my own actions are consistent with my belief, not others.

I do hope you can find enjoyment out of this board.

Hi Dragons87, thankyou for your reply. I too enjoy differences more than similarity when it comes to discussion/debate. Mostly, I'm interested in understanding and learning the christian culture in order to avoid offending Christians and to learn how to tolerate the more 'hard line' approach "ones". I also have an interest in the topic, but my interest is more in the philosophy and existential area/s, etc; I'm fairly turned off structured religious followings, which is sort of besides the point, I'm more inclined to believe there is a God but one which isn't written in any scriptures, etc.