Different views on Christian Rock

[WannaWitness]

I feal that all styles can have a "worldly" sound. Some styles have an exclusive worldly sound, like Rock, Rap & much Country because it's past is filled with creation and innovation surrounded by secularism. The music is more appealing based on the beat and the quality of music, than the lyrics and their message.

But, other styles such as traditional church hymns, gospel music, and even folk music can be very sacred and appropriate, but easily can become "worldly" also when self and worldly intentions becoming apart of the musicians & performers purpose.

I am new on this forum and don't have the ability to post links. But, if you do a google search for Pensacola Christian Collage and visit their bookstore you will find The Rejoice Singers. I think this illustrates a good example of non-worldly music.

To be honest. I find more and more the local church and the people who are talented and sing specials exibit the most sacred and appropriate music to be found. When you buy a CD you really are opening up a world where you will be making the best decision you can based on wanting to be Holy and keeping your eyes on Jesus.

Hope this helps.

Thanks.

 

[holyrokker]

But, other styles such as traditional church hymns, gospel music, and even folk music can be very sacred and appropriate...

What makes these styles of music acceptable? When did people begin playing such music?
Would you consider the music of Johann Sebastian Bach acceptable music?

You keep talking about rock music being "worldly".

Here's a good definition of "worldly":

Worldliness is that system of values, in any given age, which has at its center our fallen human perspective, which displaces God and his truth from the world, and which makes sin look normal and righteousness seem strange. It thus gives great plausibility to what is morally wrong and, for that reason, makes what is wrong, seem normal.

Rock bands such as Disciple, Spoken, Tourniquet, Resurrection Band, etc. have done the exact opposite of that.

 

[holyrokker]

Here is an excellent article on "worldly"
Part 1
http://sharperiron.org/2006/07/06/what-does-worldly-look-like

Part 2
http://sharperiron.org/2006/08/09/what-does-worldly-look-like-part-2

 

[Mr. Timothy]

You keep talking about rock music being "worldly".

I hope you are not trying to change my mind or see things differently. You are so sure that Christian Rock isn't "worldly," so was I once. I am not sure God would want me to pursue sharing my convictions and my reasons for saying it is "worldly" now. Sometimes we need to just share a view and then let God takeover.

We are all growing in the Lord, and I think my past post share adequately what Jesus has shown me in Scripture and prayer. All I can keep saying is that I have been there, done that, and now I see that maybe it wasn't the best music; God is helping me grow! I didn't just give up Christian Rock, you would be shocked at what I got rid of. Over 300 CDs of all sorts of stuff that I now safely can say was weak, milk at best, music that had/has a sweetening of the world. I would be a fool to say it is all satanic music, but I would also be a fool to say it was Holy and God was well pleased.

 

[holyrokker]

I hope you are not trying to change my mind or see things differently. You are so sure that Christian Rock isn't "worldly," so was I once. I am not sure God would want me to pursue sharing my convictions and my reasons for saying it is "worldly" now. Sometimes we need to just share a view and then let God takeover.

We are all growing in the Lord, and I think my past post share adequately what Jesus has shown me in Scripture and prayer. All I can keep saying is that I have been there, done that, and now I see that maybe it wasn't the best music; God is helping me grow! I didn't just give up Christian Rock, you would be shocked at what I got rid of. Over 300 CDs of all sorts of stuff that I now safely can say was weak, milk at best, music that had/has a sweetening of the world. I would be a fool to say it is all satanic music, but I would also be a fool to say it was Holy and God was well pleased.

Unfortunately, you haven't given me any scriptural reason that shows that Christian rock is "worldly".
Yes, there are some people who are "worldly" - but that can be said of people in every single walk of life - pastors and evangelists inculded.

How do you define "worldly"?

 

[Mr. Timothy]

Unfortunately, you haven't given me any scriptural reason that shows that Christian rock is "worldly".
Yes, there are some people who are "worldly" - but that can be said of people in every single walk of life - pastors and evangelists inculded.

How do you define "worldly"?

I could go into the whole Greek word for "world," cosmos, and etc .... or I can define worldly using my KJV, because that would be where God teaches me to define it.

in 1 John 2:15-16 we find this gem “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” If we love the world, then we would be worldly. John says to love not the world, then he says that the world contains "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" So, a Christian living a worldly life can be a person who likes and follows the life of lust and pride.

If we go back to John, we read on and see "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever" and now we see that doing Gods will gives us an eternal bennifit. What is one of Gods instructions in the Bible for every Christian ........ "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 20:7, or "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation" 1 Peter 1:15. I would say the instructions in the Bible is a major part of Gods will in your life. One of them is being Holy.

So, worldly is defined as "not following Gods will and instructions and following a life of lust and pride". A worldly Christin could be defined in my book in short as a Christian, "Not Being Holy"

 

[holyrokker]

So, worldly is defined as "not following Gods will and following a life of lust and pride".

By your own definition, Christian rock is not worldly. In fact, by your definition only people can be worldly. I agree.

Also, by your definition, most of the musicians playing Christian rock are not worldly.

 

[Mr. Timothy]

um .... I probably should have practiced restraint on your "define worldliness challenge". It wasn't my best answer now that I look back on it. While what I wrote I agree with, I also see another part of worldliness found in the Old Testament, a part that pulls things together better .... Isaah 26:9, "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." The fact that righteousness isn't in the world; Worldly people are not moral, virtuous, honest, good ..... and these unrighteous people create and build and influence without Jesus inside them.

Worldliness is a huge subject to study and understand and even now I see how little I know about it. But, when I look at Christian Rock I don't see men and women different, set apart, hated by the world .... I see people accepted. That fact links it for me to worldliness because the world should hate people who are against it - but they accept Christian Rock and give Grammys and Top 10 status to songs. This acceptance obviously is something to be concerned with. Maybe I am judgmental, but this judgment is a close look at questions that cry out for an answer. Why do Christian rock artist listen to worldly artist for inspiration, why do they dress like secular artist, sign onto secular labels, write lyrics that don't offend like scripture does .....

 

[guitargeekette]

Why do Christian rock artist listen to worldly artist for inspiration, why do they dress like secular artist, sign onto secular labels, write lyrics that don't offend like scripture does .....

I agree that some Christian artistes seem to be what Jamaicans like to say 'watering down' the gospel to try and appeal to others...but at the same time you do have others who give the unadulterated gospel...so much so that some people are outraged by it...just as outraged by scriptures...I know that when DC Talk came out with Jesus Freak...people were wondering what they were doing! As for style or fashion, I try not to be critical of it...I do believe in modesty especially for women...for the dudes...I don't really know.

 

[Sketcher]

Rock music comes from a long line of rebellion and sinful innovators, any musician who is following the footpaths of these men is following after the world.

Would you also say that every realist artist in history is under the vile pagan influence of the ancient Greeks?

Are they A Christian or not a Christian? That isn't my judgment to make, but no matter what the Bible gives enough evidence that Christian Rock artist are following the world and quit possibly are the Devils tool to keep us from getting close to God. Titus 2:12 says, "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world"

A lot of Christian rock songs are all about that. Convenient.

When I open my Bible I read 1 John 2:15-16 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” I hope all of the Bible translations clearly outline that we are to not love the world.

What does that verse say loving the world looks like? Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, pride of life. Nothing about a musical style. Those are attitudes that we would all do best to get rid of.

Why? 1 Peter 1:16 sums it up when Peter writes, "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" I am sorry - Christian rock, rap, praise music, and soft rock is NOT holy. If it was holy then the WORLD would not want to listen. Does the world want to read the HOLY BIBLE?

With the recent rise of Christian rock, there have been bumper stickers that say such things as, "Keep Rock Evil."

But according to your standards, I had better trade in all my blue jeans, my khakis, my suit . . . if they were holy, then worldly people would not wear anything that looks like them.

When you are a Christian Rocker you are offering music that caters to the flesh, an image that caters to the flesh, and a overall ability to conform to current fads and standards to make your music appeal to the masses, or lets just say the flesh.

Pleasant to the human ear =/= appealing to the sinful nature.

When you sell millions of CDs and you have millions of people praising the music and ability you posses a little pride I am sure.

That can also happen if you write a bestselling book that is right on with what the Bible teaches, and you get nominated for an award. I guess we shouldn't instruct each other either, even if we're right in line with the Bible. Pride is a problem that people need to dodge, but that doesn't make the action of making music, writing, or doing anything else well inherently sinful. You take a break from it as you need to in order to get your heart back in the right place, but you keep on doing what God has gifted you to do.

Clearly, when I see marketing stratages that are designed to sell more and more CDs and sell more and more concerts that will apeal to Christains and the World I can't help but remember, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears"

That refers to liberal teaching, not to music or style. That's why we have so many Christians divorcing and remarrying today. Some of the songs I like are just fun songs, some have nuggets of truth in them, but occasionally there is a song full of sound doctrine that will convict you more than most sermons.

I agree that Christian Rock music has words that mention God, or have a message that can bring a tear. But, when I hear that argument I remember clearly James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble"

Why would the music itself set aside those who play it as automatically not being doers of the word? All you're doing is repeating your claim that the music is evil. No proof, no evidence.

Fact is, I can make the clame very easily that people today do not want to be a sacrifice for God. We should scrifice our wants and desires becasue we read in Roman 12:1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." If we can't give up the modern musical trends that are a product of rebelion and sinfull inovation then maybe we are not fit for Gods commandment to be Holy. Like I said, I can clame very easily that people today do not want to be a sacrifice - they never want to give up TV, Christain Rock, and everything else that could be given up for the glory of God.

Many people don't want to sacrifice, but that does not mean that a particular style of music is something that everyone must sacrifice.

Okay - well my Bible says, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." in Hebrews 10:31. And when I read the Bible I see time and time again that rebelion and selfishness leads to Gods judgement.

Right, but all this and you have still not articulated why Christian rock music is inherently rebellious against God. Nor have you articulated why liking a certain type of music equals selfishness. People CAN be selfishly rebellious with music, TV, what they eat for supper, etc. But that doesn't mean that all people who do these things are committing acts of selfish rebellion by enjoying them. There are people who take their walks with God very seriously who like music you don't like, watch TV you don't like, wear clothes you don't like, and so forth.

Take a good look at Christian Rock. Take a look at the sinfull record labels pushing these "Christians" to sell sell sell. Take a good look at all the worldly men who profit for the money made. Take a good look at the image we see on the stage and in the pictures of our favorate artist and tell me it doesen't copy what the world inovates.

Do you have any real examples, or are you relying on rhetoric again? And would one, two, or however many examples you bring up automatically damn all Christian artists, or the style itself? No they would not. You would need to back it up with real, credible statistics, and THEN prove that the reason for the sin is the music, if you were going to try to prove that Christian rock is evil from this angle.

Read each artist web site and tell me why the salvation message is hidden? Why are lyrics more fluff than truth?

Artistic license maybe? It shouldn't be taken so far as to teach flat-out error, but come on.

Also, there are a lot of Christian businesses, small and large, throughout the country. Would you say the Christian plumber or the Christian lawn care guy is less of a Christian for not having the full Gospel in his advertisements, or if his business card can't double as a tract?

Fact is, more bad can be said about CCM than Good. In my humble opinion, if I see bad outweighing the good then maybe it isn't good. I have owned many 100's of CCM Cds, been to concerts, and I KNOW what is going on.

What's going on? Specifically? Give me specific sins.

Also, where is the persecution in these artist lives? I see nothing but TOP 10 status and Grammys! Bible says in 2 Timothy 3:12, "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution."

I don't know too much about the CCM people and persecution, because I don't really follow it. I like Christian Rock. If you want examples of persecution, I can name a couple instances off the top of my head. One is of a band called Tourniquet. Christian thrash. I don't like them that much, but they did get some abuse at a secular metal festival that they were scheduled to play at. Members of a Satanic band (I believe it was Deicide) tried to start a fight with them. Another example is No Innocent Victim. They're a good Christian hardcore band. One of the reasons I like them so much is their uncompromising message. Of course, that message got them facing the business ends of guns in an alley, right here in the States. They were told to renounce their faith. They did not. They walked out of that alive. And they kept writing songs full of bare-knuckle Christian truth.

But, other styles such as traditional church hymns, gospel music, and even folk music can be very sacred and appropriate, but easily can become "worldly" also when self and worldly intentions becoming apart of the musicians & performers purpose.

A lot of those traditional hymns were re-written from popular music at the time. And if you want to go back to Gregorian Chant, that was based off of the sort of music the pagans sang at the time.

 

[Sketcher]

never mind

 

[Mr. Timothy]

never mind

All you say is good and well thought out. I respect your views and the views of millions of other Christians that don't see eye-to-eye on this issue. Thank you for your time in responding to my points and putting many views on the table. I must refrain from moving this forward simply because I am not adequately able to debate and argue what the Holy Spirit is convicting me of. This conviction isn't easily explained. I do know God is working on my heart, and my heart finds Christian Rock, CCM, and much of the modern music more a temptation for the flesh then a blessing. I can only say that I read the Bible, pray, and God tells me without anyone else pushing me to remove this music from my life. I truely beleave it is milk for the babes in Christ. And, without the proof and evodice needed I beleave it is not Holy and is worldly .....

 

[Sketcher]

Well, I at least appreciate your humble attitude about it, which a lot of the anti-rock people do not have.

 

[TheThrill]

And keep in mind, Mr. Timothy has stated all along he's not necessarily trying to share an anti-CCM (or anti Christian rock) message. Rather, a message of holy living. To which, I believe, he interprets the listening of such music as conflicting to accomplishing that.

While I might personally disagree with his conclusion, I definitely appreciate his conviction and sharing of his message. So much so, I looked forward to his posts and wanted to see his insight on responses.

I'm hopeful this topic can continue at another time because I found all the opinions and discussion interesting and thought-provoking (hopefully not too accusational toward each other, but I fear it went that way a few times - tough to say/interpret via a discussion forum).

 

[jiminpa]

My problem with the anti-Christian rock crowd is that they have no fear of attacking good, God-loving Christians who are using their best gifts and God-given desires as offerings to God and in service to man. I have met a few Christian rock musicians, and I know some of them to love God more than I do. I believe that it takes a special lack of fear of God to attack them as vigorously as those who appointed themselves the conscience to the whole church do.

Where is the persecution? The pseudo-holiness crowd is doing a very fine job of it, as well as the world. Just because Christian rock musicians don't shout "persecution" from the rooftops doesn't mean it is not happening. It just means they face it quietly. I don't expect pseudo-holliness people to understand that.

I say pseudo-holiness because it is a movement based on measurable standards of "holiness" that have everything to do with man-pleasing and nothing at all to do with heartfelt repentance of the sins that God cares about--our sinful attitudes, which can't be measured. Adherents to pseudo-holiness love to compare themselves against those not as Godly as they. They set up a whole list of false sins to feel good about themselves for not committing, but have no problem telling someone to bury their talents lest they commit one of these man made sins, (thereby committing real sin). I bought into the pseudo-holiness lie decades ago for a short time, and it cost me my walk with God. I'm still a Christian, but the fire is out, and I haven't been able to rekindle it. I have wept over the destruction psuedo-holiness has done to my love of God, to no avail. Heed my warning. Don't take up their yoke. You may not be able to throw it off.

We all have our own weaknesses. Some of them may not be sin universally. If God is dealing with you personally to stay away from Christian rock, by all means stay away from it, but don't demand that others renounce their calling from God because you have a weakness, or worse need to call others "sinner" to make yourself feel okay with God. You may find it better had you hung a millstone around your neck and jumped into the sea. I'm not exaggerating. I really believe it to be that serious.

BTW, Dial a Truth, (I know he calls himself Dial the Truth, but his truths are more truisms than actual truth), had been confronted for having blatant lies on his site and leaves them posted anyway. I don't know about the other sites referenced, but have little doubt the same is the case for them too.

 

[Mr. Timothy]

My problem with the anti-Christian rock crowd is that they have no fear of attacking good, God-loving Christians who are using their best gifts and God-given desires as offerings to God and in service to man. I have met a few Christian rock musicians, and I know some of them to love God more than I do. I believe that it takes a special lack of fear of God to attack them as vigorously as those who appointed themselves the conscience to the whole church do.

Where is the persecution? The pseudo-holiness crowd is doing a very fine job of it, as well as the world. Just because Christian rock musicians don't shout "persecution" from the rooftops doesn't mean it is not happening. It just means they face it quietly. I don't expect pseudo-holliness people to understand that.

I say pseudo-holiness because it is a movement based on measurable standards of "holiness" that have everything to do with man-pleasing and nothing at all to do with heartfelt repentance of the sins that God cares about--our sinful attitudes, which can't be measured. Adherents to pseudo-holiness love to compare themselves against those not as Godly as they. They set up a whole list of false sins to feel good about themselves for not committing, but have no problem telling someone to bury their talents lest they commit one of these man made sins, (thereby committing real sin). I bought into the pseudo-holiness lie decades ago for a short time, and it cost me my walk with God. I'm still a Christian, but the fire is out, and I haven't been able to rekindle it. I have wept over the destruction psuedo-holiness has done to my love of God, to no avail. Heed my warning. Don't take up their yoke. You may not be able to throw it off.

We all have our own weaknesses. Some of them may not be sin universally. If God is dealing with you personally to stay away from Christian rock, by all means stay away from it, but don't demand that others renounce their calling from God because you have a weakness, or worse need to call others "sinner" to make yourself feel okay with God. You may find it better had you hung a millstone around your neck and jumped into the sea. I'm not exaggerating. I really believe it to be that serious.

BTW, Dial a Truth, (I know he calls himself Dial the Truth, but his truths are more truisms than actual truth), had been confronted for having blatant lies on his site and leaves them posted anyway. I don't know about the other sites referenced, but have little doubt the same is the case for them too.

Can you back up anything with scripture to help me reconsider this road into what you call pseudo-holiness? You said you are "still a Christian, but the fire is out" How could that happen? My fire gets burning just reading my Bible and Praying. I found that Christian Rock was like a pale of water over my spiritual fire; it could never be the answer.

 

[Mr. Timothy]

Well, I at least appreciate your humble attitude about it, which a lot of the anti-rock people do not have.

Thank You

 

[jiminpa]

Can you back up anything with scripture to help me reconsider this road into what you call pseudo-holiness? You said you are "still a Christian, but the fire is out" How could that happen? My fire gets burning just reading my Bible and Praying. I found that Christian Rock was like a pale of water over my spiritual fire; it could never be the answer.

So for you it is counterproductive, and should be avoided. No problem.

I am tempted to respond as Jesus did to the Pharisees, and challenge you to first give the scriptures which identify an evil musical style and it's specific characteristics, but I already know that no such scripture exists, as do you. Accusations of worldliness could be leveled at almost anything, including the printing press and internet, and with more evidence than any style of music, but man's accusations aren't scriptural support.

My scriptural support against pseudo-holiness is every confrontation Jesus had with the Pharisees, the entire books of Romans and Galatians, Isaiah 64:4 along with much of the Psalms, (David understood knowing God was more important than heartless rule following). Really the entire Bible is about loving God and not just following His rules. Did Jesus really violate God's laws, or did he simply transgress the "safety margin" of holiness and measurable acts of apparent righteousness that men had established? They crucified him as a covenant breaker for following God's laws and stomping all over theirs in the process. If he had violated the law as God gave it, he would have been an unfit sacrifice, and he was perfectly fit.

As for your questioning how it is possible to lose the fire. All I can answer is that 1Cor 3:15 speaks of those who are saved "as one passing through fire." In my own life, one decision to not risk potential sin, (which wasn't really sin at all), against the warnings of the Holy Spirit started a spiral of bad decisions which spun my life completely out of control. I am now so bogged down in the cares of life that I can't see past them to God no matter how hard I try, and God seems to be leaving me there for now. When Bible reading and prayer time become dead works, how are they to rekindle a cold heart?

 

[jiminpa]

Looks like Mr. Timothy was a drive by. I hope not.

We should scrifice our wants and desires becasue we read in Roman 12:1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

I have learned to disagree with the interpretation of that scripture to mean to completely sacrificing our wants and desires. I tried that and found that it left me without anything to offer God. I did it for so long that I don't have any real interests, and seem to not be able to get them back. It's a very bad road. Don't go down it.

I would agree with presenting them to God for further instruction, but to just sacrifice our wants and desires leaves us empty. Of course it should go without saying to not let anything become an idol, including our mis-perception of holiness.

 

[Million Pieces]

Bob Hartman

Peter Furler

Toby MacKeehan

Steven Curtis Chapman

Mark Stuart

Michael W. Smith

Mylon Lefebvre


Glen Kaiser



Keith Green



Larry Norman




Rich Mullins




men of God, men of honour, men of righteousness, all of them. And all of them Christian rockers and ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.