Different Gods

[Martinius]

If you are not familiar with that period of history, what was meant by a "Christian man" was not that he lived up to the standards of charity, mercy, and justice that Jesus called us to, but merely that he was refined, educated, a good conversationalist, respected in the community and polished. That sort of thing. Also, he would not be overtly religious, certainly not devout. That would be low class. But of course he would attend church o Sunday because that was a social obligation for all well-bred gentlemen. It actually might be called the opposite of what we'd expect when calling someone a good example of a Christian.

Your description sounds a lot like the one used by Kierkegaard about two hundred years ago, and I would concur that it is not the best example of being Christian. My point was that behavior (how we actually live our lives) is a better indicator of our discipleship than how often we pray or if we recite a creed in church. But many people then, and still today, are "church-goers" to enhance their position in the community. I have a close friend who switched from Lutheran to Episcopalian for that very reason.

To my query about what we mean by "commitment to Christ" you said

Acceptance of Christ as one's Lord and Savior, trusting in him, and dedicated to his teachings. ALL of it.

I would generally agree with your statement, especially the "trusting in him", and would just hesitate with the last part, and only because one must be careful to differentiate and understand what Jesus taught versus what others claim to be his teachings.

Why would God lead someone to a false God? And logically speaking, why wouldn't he just lead the person to Christ straightaway?

I can see our respective views of the work of the Holy Spirit are quite different. The way I interpret your view, God (at the time of Christ) arbitrarily wrote off about 99% of the world's people, since they had no opportunity to be led to Christ. Even many centuries later, there were huge portions of the world that had yet to be exposed to the Word. Why would God do that?

To my comment about people outside the dominant Hebrew faith being led to the Kingdom, you said:

I don't remember any of them being devotees of Baal or some other deity in competition with the God of the Hebrews.

The most obvious example is the Centurion, who worshipped the gods of Rome, yet was said by Jesus to have greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

It may be that certain IDEAS, i.e. philosophy, could be a precurser to what you are thinking of, but not a pagan religion. At least, that's my conclusion. There's just no sense IMO to the Holy Spirit actively leading someone into error in order to bring him to the truth later on.

Again, a different view of the Holy Spirit. How did you learn about or "find" your religion? For most of us, it was the religion we were raised in, that was followed by our family. Not via the Holy Spirit. Even if we changed, it usually remained similar to that first one. So, someone born in India or Africa or China would most likely have been brought up in a non-Christian religion. Yet the Holy Spirit could be at work in them, drawing them toward a Christian life without there being any intellectual understanding of Jesus Christ, at least initially.

Does the Holy Spirit only relate to those who are already Christian, or could the Holy Spirit relate to anyone who, with confidence and trust in God (by whatever name or attributes we give the One God), seeks what is right, just and holy? I think you know what my answer would be.

To me it is the difference between believing that God is "our" God alone and no one else's, or that God is the God of all. Why would God be the God of all yet only give a select few the simple opportunity of entering the Kingdom?

 

[Albion]

I can see our respective views of the work of the Holy Spirit are quite different. The way I interpret your view, God (at the time of Christ) arbitrarily wrote off about 99% of the world's people, since they had no opportunity to be led to Christ. Even many centuries later, there were huge portions of the world that had yet to be exposed to the Word. Why would God do that?

I can surmise an answer to that. I cannot come up with one that answers why the Holy Spirit might deliberately lead anyone into a false religion with a false God in order to better lead him to Christ.

To my comment about people outside the dominant Hebrew faith being led to the Kingdom, you said:
The most obvious example is the Centurion, who worshipped the gods of Rome, yet was said by Jesus to have greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

Well, maybe. You are making an educated guess about the centurion, that's all. And we do not think that the Holy Spirit inspired him to worship the Roman gods, do we?

Again, a different view of the Holy Spirit. How did you learn about or "find" your religion? For most of us, it was the religion we were raised in, that was followed by our family. Not via the Holy Spirit. Even if we changed, it usually remained similar to that first one. So, someone born in India or Africa or China would most likely have been brought up in a non-Christian religion. Yet the Holy Spirit could be at work in them, drawing them toward a Christian life without there being any intellectual understanding of Jesus Christ, at least initially.

Anything's possible, huh?

Does the Holy Spirit only relate to those who are already Christian, or could the Holy Spirit relate to anyone who, with confidence and trust in God (by whatever name or attributes we give the One God), seeks what is right, just and holy? I think you know what my answer would be.

To me it is the difference between believing that God is "our" God alone and no one else's, or that God is the God of all. Why would God be the God of all yet only give a select few the simple opportunity of entering the Kingdom?

It doesn't offend me that others have contrasting religious views, but I long ago decided that it wasn't wisdom to make speculation the essence of one's religion. What I feel is that we have to decide if there's a God, and if so, which one it is. I of course grew up in a Christian community, but I honestly think that the Bible stands on its own as PROBABLY what it claims to be(since it can't be proven scientifically beyond every shadow of a doubt) and that no other religion is close to it in credibility, with the exception of Judaism (which poses other problems).

Therefore, I am compelled to have this be my religion and I take the God of that religion as he is, not as I would make him if I were in the business of inventing a God for myself.

 

[strangertoo]

lol..........but never close enough. Back to studying.

rather accept Jesus' free offer he died to bring any who have the will to know the Truth of god and are ready to prepare themselves to know by ceasing from all sin they know of to begin what God commands, Love ... not sin any more once one has been TOLD ALL one's sin in spirit baptism having ceased all one's sins acknowledged to oneself... for the Truth is FREE, gratis, for nothing, a gift of God , but God cannot give a gift that would kill one and so prevent one proving one's Lovingness of all in life -so one needs must stop sinning first for the shame is rough enough in spirit baptism even after one stops sinning, remember those breaking through to see God who have not purified themselves do get killed, the shock of the Truth can and does kill, one must prepare for spirit baptism by ceasing from impurity of sin beforehand...
2 Timothy 2:19 ... the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

there is the BIG problem for sinner priests and their sinner congregations in mass religion of sinners ... Jesus knew , and told us that the masses of this world will follow the FALSE Christ figure, Satan as God - Rev 13:3-4 - and this is how men follow Satan :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Jesus can hardly have destroyed sin in a sinner for life... and the claims that grace covers continual sin are rather obviously false soothsayings for religion of sinners:-

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

without the WILL to stop sinning BECAUSE it is abuse of others and oneself, NOT Love that Jesus COMMANDS, God commands... sinners will only be freed of sin by death [Romans 6:7] and so have lost the chance to know God in this life [but most folks do not -Matt 7:13-14- , most folks are destroyed for sin now -Matt 7:13- , countless many saved LATER [Rev 7:9-10] by the kingdom set up by the few who Love now , the FEW saints of this life -Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8

so you see the bible proves Jesus NEVER did set up a mass religion i this earth, by time of his return only tens of thousands will have Loved as he commands, stopped sinning to be ABLE to be baptised of the spirit and have their Love PROVEN against any further sin IN LIFE :-

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Peter who denied Jesus three times, finally learned that Love MUST survive trial ... as John the baptist said, there are THREE baptisms all acting as ONE Love , because spirit baptism is sealed for sake of PURITY of Love in the kingdom come of Jesus Christ in the new earth ... the salvation LATER of the many AFTER death by works [Rev 20:13] depends upon purity of Love of the Few who set it up in the Millennium ... all who sin in the kingdom suffer death again for sin, taking them beyond the salvatrion of the many at judgement day [Rev 7:9-10] , for many do not sin, but live by Love and are HAPPY in life in Jesus' kingdom, but it is only in the hearts and minds of saints in this life, the many do not know the beauty of Love in life until the kingdom comes to them after death and resurrection to the body as Jesus showed we are - men still have to learn to Love in life in the flesh after death who refused to stop abusing with sin in this life :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[to Love! - God's Law, Jesus' Law]

Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

So the FEW [Matt 7:13-14] are chosen for their Love proven in THIS life which Love saves billions because they administer Jesus' kingdom for the many saved later [Rev 7:9-10] who were all destroyed in this life [Matt 7:13]

so if you WANT more than anything to be saved early and are prepared to stop sinning in order to be able top bera the shame of spirit baptism revealing ALL sin for FULL repentance and turning solely to Love, no more desire to sin, no more abuse with sin, then accept Jesus free gift from God, spirit baptism, become a saint, but realise it is to death and one will be TRIALLED by Satan Himself to see if one will sin again... early salvation is NOT the picnic sold for a living by sinners in frocks...

 

[Phantasman]

I can see our respective views of the work of the Holy Spirit are quite different. The way I interpret your view, God (at the time of Christ) arbitrarily wrote off about 99% of the world's people, since they had no opportunity to be led to Christ. Even many centuries later, there were huge portions of the world that had yet to be exposed to the Word. Why would God do that?

They had never been exposed to the Holy Spirit directly. Even Jesus could not give it until he became glorified:

John 10
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


John 7


37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 20




21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


This is what was given to the world as well, first hand.



To my comment about people outside the dominant Hebrew faith being led to the Kingdom, you said:
The most obvious example is the Centurion, who worshipped the gods of Rome, yet was said by Jesus to have greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

10% of the Roman army were Hebrew Jews.



Again, a different view of the Holy Spirit. How did you learn about or "find" your religion? For most of us, it was the religion we were raised in, that was followed by our family. Not via the Holy Spirit. Even if we changed, it usually remained similar to that first one. So, someone born in India or Africa or China would most likely have been brought up in a non-Christian religion. Yet the Holy Spirit could be at work in them, drawing them toward a Christian life without there being any intellectual understanding of Jesus Christ, at least initially.

The Bible says many are chosen, but few follow. Churches don't save. Christ does.

Does the Holy Spirit only relate to those who are already Christian, or could the Holy Spirit relate to anyone who, with confidence and trust in God (by whatever name or attributes we give the One God), seeks what is right, just and holy? I think you know what my answer would be.

I believe the Holy Spirit is the extension of God that works in a sinful environment (since God is perfect). It is quite powerful, as omnipresent, and is the interpreter, comforter, intellectual, and all things pure and positive representing God the Father.

To me it is the difference between believing that God is "our" God alone and no one else's, or that God is the God of all. Why would God be the God of all yet only give a select few the simple opportunity of entering the Kingdom?

Opportunity exists for all to attain many things physical and spiritual. For most, our lack of action comes from our inability to learn (lazy) and expect others to do the work. We then just chose to, or not.

 

[Ran77]

Wow... So to you I could worship my TV and say it is the one true God and all is well?

No. You have described two vastly different situations.


:o

 

[Albion]

No. You have described two vastly different situations.


:o

I'm not sure that they are vastly different. What if he'd said to just call the TV repairman Jesus and all's well?

 

[Ran77]

The problem with your analogy is that you have people writing 2 different interpretations from their perspective whereas the Bible hasn't been written several times. We do have 66 books but imo they flow together quite well in describing God's character & are not contradictory in the least. We all agree that there is 1 God & then false gods who do not exist or are the product of Satan's deceitful ideas. In your story, they have not created a whole new you, but 1 person is more objectively correct than the other in their interpretation of you because you either have the abilities they describe or you don't. A difference in perspective should not be so extreme that the God of the Bible ends up sounding like Allah, Buddha or some kind of goddess.

That part of the analogy works quite well. How many authors contributed to the Bible? Each of the Gospels that deal with Christ's ministry each have a unique flavor to them and add slight variants to what is presented. Which is what we see happen in the analogy.

As far as a different perspective goes - it shouldn't be so extreme that God sounds like Buddha or someone else, but people offer strange interpretations of it all the time. It happens. The point being, there is still One God regardless of how many different views exist.

 

[Ran77]

They worship Mohammed, the 7th head of the beast.

Isn't The Beast a WWE wrestler?

 

[strangertoo]

I can see our respective views of the work of the Holy Spirit are quite different. The way I interpret your view, God (at the time of Christ) arbitrarily wrote off about 99% of the world's people, since they had no opportunity to be led to Christ. Even many centuries later, there were huge portions of the world that had yet to be exposed to the Word. Why would God do that?

They had never been exposed to the Holy Spirit directly. Even Jesus could not give it until he became glorified:

John 10
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


John 7


37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


John 20




21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


This is what was given to the world as well, first hand.


To my comment about people outside the dominant Hebrew faith being led to the Kingdom, you said:
The most obvious example is the Centurion, who worshipped the gods of Rome, yet was said by Jesus to have greater faith than anyone else in Israel.

10% of the Roman army were Hebrew Jews.



Again, a different view of the Holy Spirit. How did you learn about or "find" your religion? For most of us, it was the religion we were raised in, that was followed by our family. Not via the Holy Spirit. Even if we changed, it usually remained similar to that first one. So, someone born in India or Africa or China would most likely have been brought up in a non-Christian religion. Yet the Holy Spirit could be at work in them, drawing them toward a Christian life without there being any intellectual understanding of Jesus Christ, at least initially.

The Bible says many are chosen, but few follow. Churches don't save. Christ does.

Does the Holy Spirit only relate to those who are already Christian, or could the Holy Spirit relate to anyone who, with confidence and trust in God (by whatever name or attributes we give the One God), seeks what is right, just and holy? I think you know what my answer would be.

I believe the Holy Spirit is the extension of God that works in a sinful environment (since God is perfect). It is quite powerful, as omnipresent, and is the interpreter, comforter, intellectual, and all things pure and positive representing God the Father.

To me it is the difference between believing that God is "our" God alone and no one else's, or that God is the God of all. Why would God be the God of all yet only give a select few the simple opportunity of entering the Kingdom?

Opportunity exists for all to attain many things physical and spiritual. For most, our lack of action comes from our inability to learn (lazy) and expect others to do the work. We then just chose to, or not.

The FOUNDATION of God REMAINS and is not negotiable [unlike religion of sinners!] :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

one cannot SURVIVE spirit baptism by God Himself without FIRST stopping one's sin one acknowledges ...

God will not kill with spirit baptism normally, because it defeats the purpose, one cannot Love IN LIFE if one is killed before one has PROVEN one's Love is True , no more sin BY GOD's judgement of sin... hence the FIRST Truth in spirit baptism is the Truth about oneself one WILL NOT ADMIT TO ONESELF ... that is what will kill a confirmed sinner , the shock that he is actually ashamed to the pit of his stomach about what he is become IN LIFE...

spirit baptism is a FREE GIFT, but very few stop sinning enough for God to be able to give it without killing them, so He does not ... and God has not gotten this wrong, He REQUIRES only tens of thousands of TRUE SAINTS [Jude 1:14] to run the kingdom - Revelation 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests... He requires NO-ONE in the kingdom of Love who wants to sin all their life, servant of Satan until death frees them from sin [Rom 6:7]

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Albion]

The point being, there is still One God regardless of how many different views exist.

I'm sure we can all agree to that statement. Unfortunately, it doesn't answer the question of the thread.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not sure that they are vastly different. What if he'd said to just call the TV repairman Jesus and all's well?

It reminds me of an anecdote I heard about an American missionary who when to a small town in Mexico. He walked up to a fellow and asked him if he knew Jesus. The man answered, "Si." The missionary rejoiced that he had found a brother in Christ. It turned out that the Mexican's brother happened to have been named ""Jesus" which is common in Hispanic cultures.

Was the Mexican Jesus the same as Jesus Christ? I think not.

 

[he-man]

It reminds me of an anecdote I heard about an American missionary who when to a small town in Mexico. He walked up to a fellow and asked him if he knew Jesus. The man answered, "Si." The missionary rejoiced that he had found a brother in Christ. It turned out that the Mexican's brother happened to have been named ""Jesus" which is common in Hispanic cultures.

Was the Mexican Jesus the same as Jesus Christ? I think not.

There was a man walking on the road looking confused. A passerby noticed that the man was perplexed and so he asked him if he could be of any help. The man said, "I hope so, I do not know the right way to the city".

The passerby smiled and replied, "I have a roadmap, would you like to borrow it"? The gentleman was very grateful and followed the roadmap carefully. He arrived safely at his destination, the City of Zion, the city of God.

Without a roadmap to follow we are confused and perplexed.

Just as Abraham and Isaac followed God, Cain did the opposite and followed man.

You can follow God or you can follow Baal. You can follow Jacob but you cannot be a follower of Esau or Islam.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever Mal 1:2-5

 

[Martinius]

I cannot come up with one that answers why the Holy Spirit might deliberately lead anyone into a false religion with a false God in order to better lead him to Christ.

Because the Holy Spirit wouldn't. Choosing a "false" religion is often no choice at all, since the person would have no knowledge of all the "choices".

You are making an educated guess about the centurion, that's all. And we do not think that the Holy Spirit inspired him to worship the Roman gods, do we?

What "educated guess"? The Centurion, who would have been in charge of 100 (or more) soldiers, would be required to worship the gods of Rome, formally and publicly. Now, he may have done that out of necessity, but we are not certain. But there is no doubt that publicly he would have been looked at by the Jews as a pagan worshipping multiple false gods, even though he may have been also seen as a "good and just" man (something that you apparently cannot conceive of, a non-Christian who could be good as God would consider it).

And I am not saying that the Holy Spirit inspired him to worship Roman gods, but possibly brought him to understand and accept (internally if not externally) what Jesus was saying, or through observation of the disciples that he encountered. The Holy Spirit can work in any number of ways; but people must be open to the message. In any case, Jesus found great faith in that pagan man. He is the most prominent example, but there are several others in the Gospels. I am sure you are aware of that.

...What I feel is that we have to decide if there's a God, and if so, which one it is.

I see and recognize ONE God, whereas you seem to say that people must choose between several. Of course you could be referring to the "gods" of secularism, materialism, etc. Then I would agree with you. As to others of non-Christian religions, I have no idea in what god they place their faith, but I hope and pray it is the One God. But I will not pre-judge anyone about that; I leave that to the Lord.

...I am compelled to have this be my religion and I take the God of that religion as he is, not as I would make him if I were in the business of inventing a God for myself.

So do I. And I am trying to get down to the root of what God is all about, using the words and deeds of Jesus as my initial guide. As I do that, I find that most churches have moved far from the core teachings of Jesus into much more complicated doctrines and/or reliance on specific words and rituals as the critical components of faith. We seem to have grown to placing our faith in "church" rather than in God. I respectfully cannot accept that.

Then there are some who place their entire faith in every word and verse in the Bible, which we know has been subject to volumes upon volumes of commentary and interpretation (and alterations, even in the earliest available texts), with no apparent hope for universal agreement. As some have made the church their idol, so have others with the Bible. I can't do that either. Yet that doesn't mean that I reject scripture, but that I accept it as one portion of what I need and will use to approach and perhaps someday enter into the Realm of God.

One more comment on scripture. In Jesus' time, he and the disciples relied on the Hebrew scriptures which, as we know, were not gathered into books but written on scrolls. Not something you could have at home or carry around. But Jesus and the disciples welcomed gentiles into the gathering of early Christians, most of them coming from a background of Greco-Roman religious beliefs and practices. So what was their scripture? They had none, and would not have been exposed to it unless they were "fellow-travelers" at the synagogues. Yet they were able to find faith in Jesus Christ through their encounters with the disciples, and probably with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No "scripture" required.

Yet today we seem to place an inordinate importance on scripture, to the point where we consider a person of great faith someone who can cite and spout chapter and verse. Then I think about what Jesus said regarding that, in speaking to and about the Scribes and Pharisees, and see uncomfortable parallels. But perhaps that's just me.

 

[Martinius]

They had never been exposed to the Holy Spirit directly. Even Jesus could not give it until he became glorified.

Hmmm, you make it sound like the Holy Spirit was not in the picture before the advent of Jesus on earth or prior to his resurrection. However, even in the New Testament we read where the Holy Spirit was active before then, and also before Jesus started his mission. And in the Hebrew Bible we find ample examples of the activity of the Holy Spirit. So I am not sure what you mean by your statement.

10% of the Roman army were Hebrew Jews.

Considering the estimates for the size of the Roman army and the number of Jews in Palestine, 10% of the ENTIRE Roman army would seem too large. However, if you take only the Roman army in Palestine, then there is a possibility that the 10% figure could be about right. I would suspect that those Jews in the Roman army would have been conscripted or were "fallen-away" Jews. Considering the animosity between the Jewish lay person and the Romans, it would be difficult to see that many faithful Jews freely joining the Roman army.

In any case, that says nothing about the Centurion in question, and I again doubt that he was Jewish; if he was, wouldn't it have been mentioned? In fact, the stories in Matthew and Luke about the Centurion seem to heavily point to him NOT being a Jew, but someone who is outside of the Jewish faith and nation.

The Bible says many are chosen, but few follow. Churches don't save. Christ does.

Exactly my point; our faith should be in Jesus, not in an earthly organization. Thank you.

I believe the Holy Spirit is the extension of God that works in a sinful environment (since God is perfect). It is quite powerful, as omnipresent, and is the interpreter, comforter, intellectual, and all things pure and positive representing God the Father.

Interesting idea, but I wonder how you reconcile that with Jesus (who, as God, was perfect) being plopped right into the middle of a sinful environment?

Opportunity exists for all to attain many things physical and spiritual. For most, our lack of action comes from our inability to learn (lazy) and expect others to do the work. We then just chose to, or not.

You seem to be skirting my question about all those who did NOT have the opportunity. But that's okay, I have yet to find anyone else who can tackle that one, and I have been trying on various threads for two years. Which leads me to think that perhaps our accepted image of how God works amongst and through people may be a little out of wack. I am still contemplating that one.

 

[Phantasman]

Wow... So to you I could worship my TV and say it is the one true God and all is well?

If you're into idol worship, I guess so.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There was a man walking on the road looking confused. A passerby noticed that the man was perplexed and so he asked him if he could be of any help. The man said, "I hope so, I do not know the right way to the city".

The passerby smiled and replied, "I have a roadmap, would you like to borrow it"? The gentleman was very grateful and followed the roadmap carefully. He arrived safely at his destination, the City of Zion, the city of God.

Without a roadmap to follow we are confused and perplexed.

Just as Abraham and Isaac followed God, Cain did the opposite and followed man.

You can follow God or you can follow Baal. You can follow Jacob but you cannot be a follower of Esau or Islam.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever Mal 1:2-5

I am pleased and surprised to find us in agreement on this very essential matter.

 

[Phantasman]

Hmmm, you make it sound like the Holy Spirit was not in the picture before the advent of Jesus on earth or prior to his resurrection.

It wasn't. The spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, reveals Jesus as truth. Thus it didn't need to be introduced until he was glorified. But that is my take on it.

 

[Phantasman]

In any case, that says nothing about the Centurion in question, and I again doubt that he was Jewish; if he was, wouldn't it have been mentioned? In fact, the stories in Matthew and Luke about the Centurion seem to heavily point to him NOT being a Jew, but someone who is outside of the Jewish faith and nation.

I just pointed out information to add to the equation. Who knows?

Interesting idea, but I wonder how you reconcile that with Jesus (who, as God, was perfect) being plopped right into the middle of a sinful environment?

Jesus grew up like a human man. He proved what we cannot. Sure he came from better seed, but so did Adam. And he did it against a choir of obstacles, including those who were supposed to be teaching against sin, and became his demise.

You seem to be skirting my question about all those who did NOT have the opportunity.

Like Jesus said to Peter when asked who would betray them "What is that to thee, follow thou me". Trust that God has that taken care of. He is merciful and is love. The poor in spirit are being fed, I'm assured.

 

[Albion]

What "educated guess"? The Centurion, who would have been in charge of 100 (or more) soldiers, would be required to worship the gods of Rome, formally and publicly. Now, he may have done that out of necessity, but we are not certain.

That was my point.

And I am not saying that the Holy Spirit inspired him to worship Roman gods, but possibly brought him to understand and accept (internally if not externally) what Jesus was saying, or through observation of the disciples that he encountered.

It just seems to me that that's a fragile thesis.

In any case, Jesus found great faith in that pagan man. He is the most prominent example, but there are several others in the Gospels. I am sure you are aware of that.

Well, yes, but that's not at all the same as the idea that the Holy Ghost would deliberately lead one to a pagan deity as a way of ultiimately bringing him to Christ.

I see and recognize ONE God, whereas you seem to say that people must choose between several.

No. I believe in one god...and that there are many false, non-extant gods associated with other religions.

Of course you could be referring to the "gods" of secularism, materialism, etc.

Naahh. I don't generally go in for such metaphors, especially on CF where they are guaranteed to be misunderstood.

And I am trying to get down to the root of what God is all about, using the words and deeds of Jesus as my initial guide. As I do that, I find that most churches have moved far from the core teachings of Jesus into much more complicated doctrines and/or reliance on specific words and rituals as the critical components of faith. We seem to have grown to placing our faith in "church" rather than in God. I respectfully cannot accept that.

I wouldn't go that far, but I have trended more and more towards the basic relationship between god and man as I age. I like some of the ritual and I respect other of the rituals, but in my heart and soul I do not find that they are nearly as critical to my walk with God as I did when I was younger. And that goes for many doctrines.

One more comment on scripture. In Jesus' time, he and the disciples relied on the Hebrew scriptures which, as we know, were not gathered into books but written on scrolls. Not something you could have at home or carry around. But Jesus and the disciples welcomed gentiles into the gathering of early Christians, most of them coming from a background of Greco-Roman religious beliefs and practices. So what was their scripture? They had none, and would not have been exposed to it unless they were "fellow-travelers" at the synagogues. Yet they were able to find faith in Jesus Christ through their encounters with the disciples, and probably with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. No "scripture" required.

Yet today we seem to place an inordinate importance on scripture, to the point where we consider a person of great faith someone who can cite and spout chapter and verse. Then I think about what Jesus said regarding that, in speaking to and about the Scribes and Pharisees, and see uncomfortable parallels. But perhaps that's just me.

Well, it's our introduction to Jesus and the only unchanging record of him and his ministry and teachings. Still, yours is a good point.

 

[Enkil]

Not to start a new argument on this thread, but to many people (including a large number of bible scholars and theologians) the Gospels overall are not clear about who Jesus Christ claimed to be, or more precisely, who the apostles thought he was. The history of the early church also bears that out. That is not just my opinion (although I too can see that in reading the New Testament gospels and epistles). If one reads the Gospel of Mark, for example, and then the Gospel of John, one should see an obvious difference in how Jesus is portrayed and how he is viewed.

I know this was from a post addressed to someone else, but I want to make it clear that I do not claim to "speak the true doctrine of Christianity". That is where so much of our divisiveness emanates from, which is the belief that I or someone else, sometimes more so than anyone else, knows and speaks the "true doctrine". My position has been that Jesus gave us little, if anything, in the way of doctrine. What is true about Christianity can be found in the words and actions of Jesus, and also in the lives of many people who have been his disciples. And, in my humble opinion, Jesus expects us to discover that for ourselves. As I have said before, he shows that the poor, uneducated, un-churched people often discovered it before the well-educated, scripturally trained priests and scholars did.

Didn't I tell you before that I didn't care about opinions that did not have the force of scripture on their side? When you say these things, you aren't disagreeing with my opinion. You're disagreeing with the plain words of the scripture.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Just because you do not know the teachings of Jesus Christ, doesn't mean they are unknowable for anyone else. In fact, all you have to do is read them. Outside of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation.

[You are the one setting the conditions found in your statement. It is your way and no other way. Plus, the argument about "support with scripture" is so abused as to be meaningless. People have used the "support of scripture" over the centuries to commit unspeakable evil. Almost anything can be "supported" by scripture, including both sides of most opposing arguments.

Notice that through all of this, you don't actually use the scripture. So you attack the scripture, make assertions about it, but don't back any of it up. I don't care about it. Unless you have scripture, there is no reason to believe in the Jesus of your imagination.

THAT is my personal view of the Gospels and what Jesus (and by extension, God) expects of us. I do not tell anyone they must believe what I do, but only ask them to find it out for themselves.

And the once place you don't tell them to go is the scripture. In fact, you couldn't care less if they had Jesus at all, because you are denying all exclusivity of Christ. Interesting, isn't it?