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Different Beliefs

Dave-W

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You can't be a fascist socialist or a right wing communist.
CR - I thought you were older than that. In the 1960s the newspapers often had articles about various crackdowns in the USSR, referring to the hard-line communists "right wing" and "conservative."
 
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circuitrider

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CR - I thought you were older than that. In the 1960s the newspapers often had articles about various crackdowns in the USSR, referring to the hard-line communists "right wing" and "conservative."

I born in the early 1960s. So, no I'm not THAT old. If they did so David it was inaccurate or the way political spectrums is described has changed radically. On a spectrum left to right:

Communist - Socialist - Democratic socialist - Liberal - Progressive - Moderate - Conservative - Radical Conservative/Fundamentalist, Fascist.

Now there is some overlap in places between say liberal and progressive. Or Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists, etc.

Usually religious groups on the far right are referred to as fundamentalist while in politics that term isn't used as often for the far right.

And yes you can be a further left leaning communist and a more conservative communist. But a conservative communist is still a left winger in relation to the whole spectrum.

The term "fundamentalism" comes out of a specific set of arguments between conservative and liberal Christians during the "fundamentalist/modernist" debates largely pre-WWII. Fundamentalism refers maintaining certain fundamental Christian beliefs that can't be char actives as liberal.

What GraceSeeker is referring to is the same negative closed minded attitude that some on the far left and far right can have. That is one of the characteristics of fundamentalism. But the rest of the characteristics are about far right theological views.
 
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circuitrider

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By the way, when I was a Southern Baptist the tendency of fundamentalist Southern Baptists was to declare anyone who didn't agree with them to be a "liberal." Actually most of their dectractors in the SBC were conservatives and moderates. There were (and are) very few liberals in the SBC and those who did exist mostly left during the SBC inerrancy wars of the 1970s and 1980s.

So when people refer to anyone left of them as a liberal or anyone to the right of them as a fundamentalist is just confuses things even further.
 
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circuitrider

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Certain denominations claim they are the only ones who interpret God's word correctly. They say others don't understand because they are not real believers. Can we really distinguish the truth? Or is everyone just guessing based on what they read and understand?

No, everyone isn't just guessing. But different Christians and Christian denominations look at the way the Bible is interpreted differently. Learning some good guidelines for Biblical interpretation can be very helpful. Reading the Bible in context. Recognizing the history around the events of the Bible. Having some understanding of why the writers wrote the way they wrote. Putting the Bible in the context of the Church as a book compiled by the Church and not something that dropped perfect out of the sky.

One of the biggest difference is the tendency of conservative Christians to want to interpret the Bible literally even when the Bible doesn't seen to make sense interpreted that way. The Bible contains several different types of literature including law, narrative, poetry, and apocalyptic/visionary passages just to name a few. You don't interpret visions such as found in the Revelation of John literally because they aren't intended to be interpreted that way.

Also people make the mistake of using the way we right history in the 21st century as a guide to how to read the Bible. But Biblical writers had much different priorities in their writing than we do. They cared far less about chronology, exact numerical accuracy, and even fully accurate quotations of other parts of the Bible. The Bible was written in a first century mideastern culture and we try to read it with 21st century scientifically oriented minds. That leads to a lot of misinterpretations and differences in interpretations.

Some people pull singing verses out of the Bible to prove a point. As GraceSeeker points out this can lead you to argue for things like slavery that we don't believe God supports.

Even the tendency to call the Bible "God's word" can lead to misinterpret ions. Jesus is God's divine Word to us. The Bible contains witness to Gods words and God's message. But there is a real danger by some of worshipping the book rather than the savior. And even worse, worshipping one interpretation of the Bible as if that is Jesus' interpretation.
 
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Dave-W

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I born in the early 1960s. So, no I'm not THAT old. If they did so David it was inaccurate or the way political spectrums is described has changed radically. On a spectrum left to right:

Communist - Socialist - Democratic socialist - Liberal - Progressive - Moderate - Conservative - Radical Conservative/Fundamentalist, Fascist.
That was our system. But the USSR had extreme communism on the right and pro-democracy/free market on the left.


Do you remember Lyndon LaRouche and his US Labor Party? No one knew where to place him on the political spectrum. He was either described as so far left he was right, or so far right he was left.

I remember seeing variants of this poster. They read: "Voting for Carter will start a thermonuclear war in less than 6 months."
elections_1976_anti_carter_poster.jpg
 
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circuitrider

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Right, I'm talking about the US political system rather than European or Russian.

And I honestly can't accept newspapers as a terribly reliable source though journalism, IMHO, was more objective then than it is now.

The more internet based journalism has become the more sound bite driven it has become.
 
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MystyRock

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By the way, when I was a Southern Baptist the tendency of fundamentalist Southern Baptists was to declare anyone who didn't agree with them to be a "liberal." Actually most of their dectractors in the SBC were conservatives and moderates. There were (and are) very few liberals in the SBC and those who did exist mostly left during the SBC inerrancy wars of the 1970s and 1980s.

So when people refer to anyone left of them as a liberal or anyone to the right of them as a fundamentalist is just confuses things even further.

And I grew up hearing Southern Baptists were all liberals - don't talk to any of them. Methodists were just a social organization; they didn't read the Bible or know anything about it. I think I was on the extreme right. Not always a happy place - now I so enjoy hearing about the Love of God. And smiling.
 
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MystyRock

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No, everyone isn't just guessing. But different Christians and Christian denominations look at the way the Bible is interpreted differently. Learning some good guidelines for Biblical interpretation can be very helpful. Reading the Bible in context. Recognizing the history around the events of the Bible. Having some understanding of why the writers wrote the way they wrote. Putting the Bible in the context of the Church as a book compiled by the Church and not something that dropped perfect out of the sky.

One of the biggest difference is the tendency of conservative Christians to want to interpret the Bible literally even when the Bible doesn't seen to make sense interpreted that way. The Bible contains several different types of literature including law, narrative, poetry, and apocalyptic/visionary passages just to name a few. You don't interpret visions such as found in the Revelation of John literally because they aren't intended to be interpreted that way.

Also people make the mistake of using the way we right history in the 21st century as a guide to how to read the Bible. But Biblical writers had much different priorities in their writing than we do. They cared far less about chronology, exact numerical accuracy, and even fully accurate quotations of other parts of the Bible. The Bible was written in a first century mideastern culture and we try to read it with 21st century scientifically oriented minds. That leads to a lot of misinterpretations and differences in interpretations.

Some people pull singing verses out of the Bible to prove a point. As GraceSeeker points out this can lead you to argue for things like slavery that we don't believe God supports.

Even the tendency to call the Bible "God's word" can lead to misinterpret ions. Jesus is God's divine Word to us. The Bible contains witness to Gods words and God's message. But there is a real danger by some of worshipping the book rather than the savior. And even worse, worshipping one interpretation of the Bible as if that is Jesus' interpretation.

OK. Need a little clarification. Can you please explain how someone worships the Bible?
 
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GraceSeeker

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October 1981, I was working in a Christian bookstore. A lady walked in and asked: "Do you have any Bibles for sale?"
Me: "Yes, we have several. What type of Bible are you looking for?"
Lady: "The Holy Bible."
Well, that clued me in that what she wanted was a KJV.
Me: "Yes, Ma'am. Did you have a particular type of cover in mind? For instance, did you want a leather binding?"
Lady: "Yes, I think that would be nice. Just a nice basic black leather Holy Bible."
So, I reached behind me and pulled a mid-range Bible off the self, and took it out of the box to hand to her.
Lady: "Oh, my! But, I guess you don't have any choice...."
Me: "Don't have any choice with what Ma'am?"
Lady: "I guess you have to keep your Bibles in boxes."
Me: "I'm sorry, I don't understand."
Lady: "It's just that I was taught that the Bible is never to be closed. It should always be kept open. But you have so many, I guess you can't keep them all that way."

To this lady a leather bound book of paper and ink was to be treated in a special manner different from any other book because it was a Bible. It wasn't a tool to help reveal the God we worship to us; it was an object of adoration in its own right. I would call that worshipping the Bible. In this case a very literal Bible. But others can worship the concept of the Bible. Whatever in their own mind the Bible is, it is the Bible itself, not the God it reveals, that they form an attachment to. For some that means that it is a particular translation, for others a particular interpretation of a passage, and if anyone else presents a different translation or different interpretation, even though they also were referring to a Bible, they are told that they are in error for not using the right translation/interpretation than the predetermined "correct" one.
 
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Kersh

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To find the truth, we should not rely on others. We all have a personal responsibility to discern the truth by trusting the Holy Spirit within us and developing a relationship with God?

Community is a vital part of the process of learning and discerning the truth. I guarantee that if you rely on just your Bible and your own understanding of it, you will make mistakes.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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One worships the Bible when they place it's words above the source. In other words; the word of Jesus or the words of God become more important than God. As crazy as that sounds; it's what happens in fundamentalist/literalist circles. And it is the root of the issue. Reading Christ's words to know Christ isn't the goal; reading Christ's words to interpret a literal and legalistic viewpoint is. Otherwise the irony of literalism and legalism being something Jesus vehemently fought against with the Pharisees wouldn't be missed.

As to the right/left comment; I remember a history textbook with a 'chart' that placed the worlds political parties on a 'spectrum'. The U.S. Democratic party was halfway-ish on the left and the U.S. GOP was half-wayish on the right. Each "side" was bookeneded by National Socialism on the extreme right, and Communism on the extreme left. I'm sure there are dissenters for almost anything; but I've always operated on that notion. I think the issue comes down to the idea that "socialism" is somehow a liberal ideology. It might be in American politics; since post-1980's Conservative american politics has kind of focused upon a marriage of fundamentalist Christian theology and free-market capitalism. Thus, if Free Market Capitalism and a small government with few services or regulations is the 'crux' of Conservativism; it makes sense to assume Socialism is the antithesis. And it is, to be fair. But elsewhere in the world socialism can be right OR left; it's an ideology separate from those traditional understandings. Some of my conservative friends have called Adolf Hitler a "liberal" or a "progressive", of which he was neither. Any reputable historian will decry Hitler as an extreme right-wing demagogue. He was also a socialist. However socialism and indeed big government were still being implemented in a 'right wing' fashion. For example, even though American conservatives want a small government; they still want the government to regulate moral issues, they still want a very large military, and they want strong police. Hitler was certainly right-wing. His message was that of scapegoating other groups (mainly Jews; but also Communists, Americans, gypsies, gays, etc.) as being the 'root' of the countries problems. (We're seeing this now with Donald Trump for example; who consistently tells us that Mexicans, Muslims, Journalists, and the poor cause Americans problems. He very frequently uses "See, that's what's wrong with this country today" as an insult to anyone who disagrees with them. If you disagree with Trump, you're "what's wrong" with America. His whole platform, for example, is the notion that America is 'broken'. On the last point, he pretty much is in common with most of the current candidates for President. Perhaps Clinton, Kasich and maybe Bush would be the only ones who don't appear to use the same 'Let's fix America' language that Sanders, Trump, Cruz, Rubio, etc. do). On the flip side, Karl Marx was definitely left-wing, with a different brand of socialism that was certainly on the far-left (Communism).

I see Communism, Fascism, Socialism, Naziism, etc., all being used interchangeably, but that's not quite how it works. We tend to be America-centric when we talk about politics and tend to assume the rest of the world works like ours. And it doesn't necessarily. The ideological differences in America aren't necessarily the same as the differences in Europe or the Middle East.
 
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MystyRock

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Community is a vital part of the process of learning and discerning the truth. I guarantee that if you rely on just your Bible and your own understanding of it, you will make mistakes.
Depends on the beliefs of the community. We should trust others and their interpretation over our own?
 
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Kersh

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Depends on the beliefs of the community. We should trust others and their interpretation over our own?

It does depend on the community. I was specifically referring to a church community. And, I don't see this as trusting your church more than yourself as vice versa. Rather, the two should complement each other. Your understanding should influence and he influenced by your spiritual community.
 
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GraceSeeker

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It does depend on the community. I was specifically referring to a church community.

With the exception of those "churches" that are themselves abusive and try to control their members. One way to know that a person or church is doing this is if when you know you've made a mistake and confess it do you feel more forgiven and freed from the error so that you're given a new start, or more condemned or judge so that you feel guilt and shame over it?
 
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Kersh

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With the exception of those "churches" that are themselves abusive and try to control their members. One way to know that a person or church is doing this is if when you know you've made a mistake and confess it do you feel more forgiven and freed from the error so that you're given a new start, or more condemned or judge so that you feel guilt and shame over it?

That's true. I started with the assumption of a healthy church. But, you're right; not all churches are healthy. In fact, many aren't.
 
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Dave-W

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We should trust others and their interpretation over our own?
At the risk of sounding like one of those bible thumper fundies that R5-8 was talking about, yes.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Note that it says "we have...," and not "I have." It is not (nor can it be) personal.

But I do agree with Grace and Kersh - the congregation must be a healthy one.
 
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