Differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholicism 2.0

[Matrona]

And I am saddened that so many little things are put forward as to what divide us . . these should not be points of division.

Like it or not, those 'little' things are more often than not, part of our little-t-tradition (if not our Holy Tradition). Triclavianism and Purgatory might seem like 'little' differences to you, but we have pointed out in other threads why these things are significant to us. Purgatory is a really significant doctrinal difference, and we've always believed that four nails were used in the Crucifixion. That's why we use the three-bar cross.

 

[Lotar]

Statues and Crucifixes -
Orthodox use "Icons" for prayer, which are two-dimensional, written and blessed "windows into Heaven." An Icon is an artistic depiction of Christ, the Theotokos, or the Saints. God the Father may not be portrayed, because He has never been seen. They are two dimensional because Icons are to portray spiritual truths and not to focus on physical attributes. Icons are not worshipped, but venerated.

Catholics use 3D statuettes of Christ, the Theotokos, and the Saints. This is forbidden by Lev. 26:1.

3D renderings of Christ are strictly forbidden. Thus, Orthodox do not wear crucifixes. We also have jewelry depicting the Crucifixion, but the Corpus is generally two dimensional and flat.

There's a pizza chain in my city that is owned and run by Antiochian Orthodox and every single one of them has a 3d crucifix on the wall...

 

[thereselittleflower]

Matrona

I understand, like it or not, that little "t" traditions divide us. It is abundantly clear from this thread and others that this is so.

But the question really needs to be addressed, SHOULD the little "t" traditions divide us? This is what I am speaking towards.


Peace in Him!

 

[Matrona]

There's a pizza chain in my city that is owned and run by Antiochian Orthodox and every single one of them has a 3d crucifix on the wall...

My baptismal cross is a crucifix... it has a bas-relief corpus on it. Our Lord's feet are side by side and the cross is a three-bar cross.

Lotar, do you remember what the crucifixes look like? They should have our Lord's feet side by side if they are Orthodox crucifixes. This is one of the details that distinguishes an Orthodox crucifix from a western crucifix.

That's cool that they are Antiochian Orthodox! We have a family at our church where the mom is cradle--her family is from Lebanon. She's the only person of Arab descent at my Antiochian church.

 

[Lotar]

My baptismal cross is a crucifix... it has a bas-relief corpus on it. Our Lord's feet are side by side and the cross is a three-bar cross.

Lotar, do you remember what the crucifixes look like? They should have our Lord's feet side by side if they are Orthodox crucifixes. This is one of the details that distinguishes an Orthodox crucifix from a western crucifix.

They are Western style, but they have their Byzantine Theotokos icons up too.

That's cool that they are Antiochian Orthodox! We have a family at our church where the mom is cradle--her family is from Lebanon. She's the only person of Arab descent at my Antiochian church.

There are a lot of Arab Orthodox, Armenian, and Coptics around here in Southern California.

 

[Matrona]

They are Western style, but they have their Byzantine Theotokos icons up too.

If their crucifixes have three nails instead of four, that may have been all they could get. There are only 2 or 3 million Orthodox in this country and that's not a very big market base. Or they may not be aware of the difference.

 

[Lotar]

If their crucifixes have three nails instead of four, that may have been all they could get. There are only 2 or 3 million Orthodox in this country and that's not a very big market base. Or they may not be aware of the difference.

I'm just wondering why would it matter?

 

[thereselittleflower]

My baptismal cross is a crucifix... it has a bas-relief corpus on it. Our Lord's feet are side by side and the cross is a three-bar cross.

Lotar, do you remember what the crucifixes look like? They should have our Lord's feet side by side if they are Orthodox crucifixes. This is one of the details that distinguishes an Orthodox crucifix from a western crucifix.

That's cool that they are Antiochian Orthodox! We have a family at our church where the mom is cradle--her family is from Lebanon. She's the only person of Arab descent at my Antiochian church.

Matrona, that is unusual, at least from my experience! We have a large arab Antiochen community in Portland . . and my uncle's Church were almost all of arab descent. I don't think I have ever been in an Antiochean Church were most were not of arab descent. By the way, my grandfather came from Lebanon.


Peace in Him!

 

[Matrona]

Matrona, that is unusual, at least from my experience! We have a large arab Antiochen community in Portland . . and my uncle's Church were almost all of arab descent. I don't think I have ever been in an Antiochean Church were most were not of arab descent. By the way, my grandfather came from Lebanon.

My Antiochian church is nearly all converts, is why. It originally split off from an Anglican church and became western rite Orthodox. Some time later the parish dropped the western liturgy and became full-on Eastern. Later on the original priest left and we now have a priest who became Orthodox with the EOC, which is why he is Antiochian. And I am Antiochian because I was able to get steady transportation to the Antiochian parish. I love being Antiochian--Bishop ANTOUN is a WONDERFUL bishop, having the liturgy in English made it so much easier to understand, and my little mission parish is great. If I ever move to another city, I don't think I'll switch jurisdictions unless I have to.

The Antiochian Archdiocese in North America has been, by and large, very welcoming to western converts. Metropolitan PHILIP has said that the former members of the EOC have made wonderful Orthodox Christians despite the controversy surrounding their acceptance, and having known some of them, I have to agree. Also, the Antiochians are the most likely to celebrate liturgy in English, outside of the OCA. (The OCA sometimes celebrates in Slavonic since they are under Moscow.)

By the way, I had a history professor this past semester who was from Lebanon--I'm not sure if he was Orthodox or not, he never said, but he saw Way of a Pilgrim on my desk and was very pleasantly surpised to see one of his students reading it. I think he might go to the Greek Orthodox church here, but I'm not sure.

 

[Oblio]

(The OCA sometimes celebrates in Slavonic since they are under Moscow.)

A slight nitpick We gained autocephaly in 1970 IIRC all Orthodox Christians in America were under the MP prior to the unfortunate events last century in Russia. Hopefully one day soon we will be one big united American Orthodox Church

 

[Philip]

Another change:

The title should be 'Differences between Orthodoxy and ....'

 

[Matrona]

A slight nitpick We gained autocephaly in 1970 IIRC all Orthodox Christians in America were under the MP prior to the unfortunate events last century in Russia. Hopefully one day soon we will be one big united American Orthodox Church

If that blessed day comes, what patriarch will we be under?

I would like to see the Ecumenical Patriarchate move to New York City. It is the closest city of any on this earth that would fit the idea of a modern-day Rome. Not to mention, it would be a much safer and far less oppressive environment for the Patriarchate. Yes, I DO know I'm talking about New York City here, which I know is rarely described as "safer" than anything.

Do you think that if we did that, we could reorganize the American jurisdictions into one jurisdiction, directly under the EP?

Besides, the amount of control the Turkish government has on the EP is alarming. Didn't they kill the last one or something?

However, I don't want to leave the dwindling population of Christians in Turkey stranded--would absorbing them into the Church of Greece help things, you know, make it the Church of Greece and Turkey or something? Would that solve the property dispute going on between that Greek archbishop and the EP?

Forgive me if any of this sounds ignorant or idiotic. I am still learning.

 

[Iacobus]

Besides, the amount of control the Turkish government has on the EP is alarming. Didn't they kill the last one or something?

While things have been a little safer since, say, about 1920, IIRC between 1453 and around 1920, only five EPs died a natural death while in office. I think martyrdom was in the job description.

James

 

[Oblio]

Good question ! I started a new thread

EP in NYC ?

 

[thereselittleflower]

My Antiochian church is nearly all converts, is why. It originally split off from an Anglican church and became western rite Orthodox. Some time later the parish dropped the western liturgy and became full-on Eastern. Later on the original priest left and we now have a priest who became Orthodox with the EOC, which is why he is Antiochian. And I am Antiochian because I was able to get steady transportation to the Antiochian parish. I love being Antiochian--Bishop ANTOUN is a WONDERFUL bishop, having the liturgy in English made it so much easier to understand, and my little mission parish is great. If I ever move to another city, I don't think I'll switch jurisdictions unless I have to.

I grew up with the liturgy in Arabic . though the homily was in English.

The Antiochian Archdiocese in North America has been, by and large, very welcoming to western converts. Metropolitan PHILIP has said that the former members of the EOC have made wonderful Orthodox Christians despite the controversy surrounding their acceptance, and having known some of them, I have to agree.

Now here I go . . Metropolitan Philip Saliba is my cousin, a few removed - there are lots of cousins . . . .

Also, the Antiochians are the most likely to celebrate liturgy in English, outside of the OCA. (The OCA sometimes celebrates in Slavonic since they are under Moscow.)

By the way, I had a history professor this past semester who was from Lebanon--I'm not sure if he was Orthodox or not, he never said, but he saw Way of a Pilgrim on my desk and was very pleasantly surpised to see one of his students reading it. I think he might go to the Greek Orthodox church here, but I'm not sure.

My uncle wanted to take me to Lebanon when I was in Highschool with a group from Church . . my father said no, and then Beruit was devestated shortly after that . . so I have never seen the country my dad's side of the family came from.

I am so glad to hear you enjoy the Antiochian Church so much. I wish I was closer to my uncle's old Church . . it is so beautiful an I miss the divine liturgy in arabic.


Peace in Him!

 

[Bulldog]

Kust a curious add-on question.

Do Orthodox believe that Catholics have true tradition? (and for that matter, Do Catholics believe that Orthodox have true tradition?)

 

[Matrona]

Kust a curious add-on question.

Do Orthodox believe that Catholics have true tradition? (and for that matter, Do Catholics believe that Orthodox have true tradition?)

This is kind of a loaded question... short answer, yes, the Orthodox believe the Catholics have apostolic succession. In fact in some Orthodox jurisdictions, when a Catholic priest wants to convert, he is not re-ordained.

Same for some Anglican priests. Because the Orthodox believe women cannot be validly ordained, a female Anglican "priest" cannot be ordained under any circumstances in the Orthodox Faith. Even male Anglican priests, if their ordination was carried out by a female Anglican "bishop", he WILL be re-ordained. Or if the male priest who ordained him was ordained by a woman, it's not valid.

When in doubt, re-ordination is carried out.

I would prefer to see re-ordination in all cases, just to be safe, but the patriarchs don't normally consult me for advice.

 

[Matrona]

Now here I go . . Metropolitan Philip Saliba is my cousin, a few removed - there are lots of cousins . . . .

Really?! Wow, that's really cool! I've never met him, but he's been a good leader. I like it when he sends a pastoral letter. The last one that I remember was to encourage his flock to go see The Passion.

My uncle wanted to take me to Lebanon when I was in Highschool with a group from Church . . my father said no, and then Beruit was devestated shortly after that . . so I have never seen the country my dad's side of the family came from.

A friend of mine had the opportunity to visit the Patriarchate of Antioch in Syria awhile back, but unfortunately they had to cancel the trip due to the war in Iraq. I felt bad but I was secretly glad because I would have died of worry.

Syria is actually pretty tolerant of its Christians, and that makes my heart rest easier for the Antiochian patriarchate.

I am so glad to hear you enjoy the Antiochian Church so much. I wish I was closer to my uncle's old Church . . it is so beautiful an I miss the divine liturgy in arabic.

I love hearing liturgical Arabic! I remember Bishop ANTOUN singing a little bit in Arabic for us. Even though my ancestry is 100% WASP (except me, I'm only a "WAS" now ), since I am part of the Antiochian church, this is my spiritual heritage. Lebanon has a large Arab Catholic population, doesn't it?

 

[Oblio]

(except me, I'm only a "WAS" now )

A WASO !

 

[thereselittleflower]

Really?! Wow, that's really cool! I've never met him, but he's been a good leader. I like it when he sends a pastoral letter. The last one that I remember was to encourage his flock to go see The Passion.



A friend of mine had the opportunity to visit the Patriarchate of Antioch in Syria awhile back, but unfortunately they had to cancel the trip due to the war in Iraq. I felt bad but I was secretly glad because I would have died of worry.

Syria is actually pretty tolerant of its Christians, and that makes my heart rest easier for the Antiochian patriarchate.



I love hearing liturgical Arabic! I remember Bishop ANTOUN singing a little bit in Arabic for us. Even though my ancestry is 100% WASP (except me, I'm only a "WAS" now ), since I am part of the Antiochian church, this is my spiritual heritage. Lebanon has a large Arab Catholic population, doesn't it?

I don't know how big the Arab Catholic population is, but I know the Arab Christian population is big, Orthodox and Catholic.

If you get a chance to vist a Church were the liturgy is done completely in Arabic, I think you will really find it to be awesome!

In our area, there is also a Marionite Church where the liturgy is done in Arabic, also Aramaic is used as well as English. I have been meaning to go visit, and our RCIA class was to go to Mass one Sunday .. but it fell through . .

Anyway, it is something I hope to do very soon.


Peace in Him!