Differences between Orthodox and Roman Catholicism 2.0

[Oblio]

[mod hat]
Folks, it is my guess that this is a work in progress, just like version 1.0

All readers are invited to post comments so the truth about our differences are noted. A goal might be that the end result is something that either Orthodox (even Greeks) or Catholics (even Romans ) could point to from their FAQ page.

No denigrating or bashing or debating please or I will shoot this thread

Carry on

[/hat]

 

[Cradle]

My two pence.

The Pope of Rome has no say in official Orthodox Church matters.

Neither in unofficial ones.

B) Papal Infallibility -
Belief that the Pope is incapable of error.

Just for the sake of justice, I think their doctrine is that he is infallible only when he speaks ex cathedra. You might want to add this little clarification.

F) Original Sin -
Catholic belief that all men are born with the inherited guilt of Adam.
Orthodox do not believe men are born guilty of the sin of Adam.

Maybe you want to add what we do believe in, i.e. men are born carrying the result of Adam's sin, the seed of corruption and death.

H) The Vernacular -
We have always believed that the Divine Liturgy should be prayed in the language of the people, whereas Rome for over 500 years insisted on the universal use of the Latin language, even after the majority of people had stopped speaking Latin. However, the language and liturgy served in a Church can vary, depending on the choices and blessing of the Bishop. The usual Sunday service is the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Hmmm... I honestly don't know what the current situation is, but if Rome insisted and doesn't insist anymore, then it's a former difference. Maybe drop?

M) Clergy Marriage -
Orthodox clergy are allowed to be married, even before Ordination. Latin-Rite Catholic clergy are not. However, Non-Latin Rite Catholic priests may be married. Orthodox are also allowed to live and work outside of the Church with their families, whereas Catholics must live in the sanctuary and survive on a stipend. Sexual molestation in the Catholic Church is a very serious issue, and while these things sadly also happen in the Orthodox Church, they do not happen with such alarming frequency as in the RCC. What is even more alarming and shocking is that these priests are being protected at even the highest levels of Roman Catholic hierarchy. Both Orthodox and Catholics condemn fornication outside of marriage.

I would at least soften the language of the bold part. It is not Orthodox to boast about our quality (or our perceived quality), or about how we handle unfortunate situations (or about how we think worldwide Orthodox churches handle them). We have to keep humble, we have to keep on our knees. Otherwise we miss the plot . Why don't you keep it facts-only? The fact here is we allow married men to be ordained, while they don't, that's all. And I agree it's important and should be mentioned as such.

N) Divorce and Re-Marriage -
Catholics have been allowing divorce since Vatican II. However, Catholics who divorce and re-marry without observing the Church's canons are denied the Communion. At an Orthodox wedding, you receive a "crowning ceremony." This joins you and your spouse in spirit. You can get divorced and remarry, but you only get one crowning ceremony. Re-marriages are essentially a formality to allow for procreation.

Would you like to mention we don't believe in and do not practice the idea of "annulment"? Personally I even find it tasteless, I much prefer our idea of reluctantly accepting a divorce in the spirit of church economy, especially in the case of adultery (in fact in the case of adultery it is precision, not even economy). You might also say re-marriages are essentially a formality to allow for procreation and to save from prostitution. Also you can say we do no more than three marriages per person no matter what.

Q) Saints -
Orthodox and Catholics share the same pre-schism Saints and Doctors. Today our common Saints are few and far between.

St Mark the Ephesian the Pillar of Orthodoxy. St Mark pray for us sinners .

That was a comment not a suggestion .

S) Triclavianism -
Orthodox believe 4 nails were used to affix the Lord to His Cross. One in each hand, one in each foot. Catholics believe 3 nails were used. One in each hand, and one through both feet, with no foot-board, or, failing that; a small block at the bottom. We believe in a three bar Cross. The first bar being the sign which was hung over His head, (depicted in Catholic imagery as saying Jesus Christ, King of the Jews. Orthodox Iconography says "King of Glory") the horizontal beam which His arms were attached to, and a tilted foot-board which His feet were nailed to.

Holy tradition says that at the moment of Christ's death, His legs went into spasm causing the board to be forced up on the right and down on the left, creating a diagonal direction of the foot board and, at the same time, showing the judgment of the two thieves, the one on the right inheriting Paradise and the one on the left condemning himself to hell. Hence, the tilted foot-board in Orthodox Iconography. Eastern-Rite Catholics also have a three bar Cross, but the foot-board is horizontal. These horizontal foot board depictions appeared much later.

Are you sure you want to give so much emphasis on that?

I know for a fact Crosses in Greece have INBI on them. And my baptismal Cross that's hanging from my neck is a single-bar one. I think flagging Crosses as Orthodox or not Orthodox is a bit like flagging calendars as Orthodox and not Orthodox. My personal opinion anyway, do what the consensus in here says .

Orthodox do not fast on Saturday (except Holy Saturday) or Sunday. Roman Catholics do not have this restriction.

We don't do strict (i.e. oil and wine) fasting on Saturdays. On the other hand, there is this pious unwritten tradition (at least in Greece) that you do a "Wednesday" + oil + wine fasting on Saturdays when we are to receive Communion on the following Sunday. I'd put it all as such. Orthodoxy has retained the practice of fasting as an integral part of the simple, ascetic way of life She advocates, not as a penance. In total, an Orthodox who wants to follow the teachings of the Church will fast for almost 1/2 of the year, although there exist subtle local variations in the fasting traditions. Catholics I hear do something else which I don't really know (very few if any regular fasts, but you get "punished" to fast for certain sins in confession? correct me if I'm wrong, no offence meant, apologies for my poor knowledge!). I'd elevate the differences over fasting to the major differences section.

Orthodox do not kneel on Sunday; Roman Catholics do.

Well I have seen people kneel at "Thine Own of Thine Own". Again there exist local variations within Orthodoxy.

Orthodox clergy wear beards; Papist clergy are generally beardless.

A canonically ordained Orthodox priest is a canonically ordained Orthodox priest even if he shaves his head. Maybe you could add "traditionally" or "most usually" somewhere.

With rare exceptions, such as an Abbess or a woman designated by an Abbess to clean, women are not allowed in an Orthodox Sanctuary where the altar is located.

In fact not even men can enter the Sanctuary, unless they have a reason. I.e. they are priests, altar boys etc. This rules out tourists, photographers, weirdos etc.

Excellent work Bruncvik .

 

[Philip]

M) Clergy Marriage -
Orthodox clergy are allowed to be married, even before Ordination. Latin-Rite Catholic clergy are not. However, Non-Latin Rite Catholic priests may be married. Orthodox are also allowed to live and work outside of the Church with their families, whereas Catholics must live in the sanctuary and survive on a stipend. Sexual molestation in the Catholic Church is a very serious issue, and while these things sadly also happen in the Orthodox Church, they do not happen with such alarming frequency as in the RCC. What is even more alarming and shocking is that these priests are being protected at even the highest levels of Roman Catholic hierarchy. Both Orthodox and Catholics condemn fornication outside of marriage. [emphasis mine]

I see no point in including the bolded section. What is there to gain by dwelling on the sins of a few?

 

[Cradle]

Do you also want to mention the spiritual nurishment we give to our dearest little children from the very first moment after baptism, by not denying them the Body and Blood of the Lord? (paedocommunion it's probably termed)

Also the difference in how we perceive confession? I.e. the confessant as a sick man, not as a criminal, the confessor as a doctor, not as a judge. Or so it seems to me, apologies if I'm wrong.

 

[Rilian]

Good point Cradle. The rite of Holy Unction would be worth mentioning, it's viewed differently as well.

 

[Oblio]

Do you also want to mention the spiritual nurishment we give to our dearest little children from the very first moment after baptism, by not denying them the Body and Blood of the Lord? (paedocommunion it's probably termed)

Also the difference in how we perceive confession? I.e. the confessant as a sick man, not as a criminal, the confessor as a doctor, not as a judge. Or so it seems to me, apologies if I'm wrong.

Wanting to thorough, and having a 6 week old cradle Orthodox in my family , I should note that they receive His precious Blood up until they can swallow solids, at which time they receive both

 

[Matrona]

I would at least soften the language of the bold part. It is not Orthodox to boast about our quality (or our perceived quality), or about how we handle unfortunate situations (or about how we think worldwide Orthodox churches handle them). We have to keep humble, we have to keep on our knees. Otherwise we miss the plot . Why don't you keep it facts-only? The fact here is we allow married men to be ordained, while they don't, that's all. And I agree it's important and should be mentioned as such.

Exactly--we are not called to judge our neighbors.

A canonically ordained Orthodox priest is a canonically ordained Orthodox priest even if he shaves his head. Maybe you could add "traditionally" or "most usually" somewhere.

Yup, an Orthodox priest is still a priest even if he has Alopecia Universalis. (Though, if he were to be made a hieromonk, how on earth would he be tonsured?! )

In fact not even men can enter the Sanctuary, unless they have a reason. I.e. they are priests, altar boys etc. This rules out tourists, photographers, weirdos etc.

Yes, the rule is not about women or men, the only people of either sex who are allowed in the Sanctuary are those with a legitimate liturgical or practical reason to be there. Only the ones who bear the Eucharist during liturgy are allowed to walk through the Royal Doors or walk in front of the altar--everyone else MUST walk behind the altar and only pass through the angel doors.

The reason there is a misconception about women not being allowed at the altar area is because, since women never serve at the altar, there usually isn't a reason for a woman to go back there, and so women who aren't abbesses almost never go into the sanctuary when the church is operating normally.

 

[isshinwhat]

I will leave the rest alone, but please understand that Catholics do not believe that we inherit the guilt of Original Sin.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

CCC #404

we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. 294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

#405

405 Although it is proper to each individual, 295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence".

 

[Rilian]

I will leave the rest alone, but please understand that Catholics do not believe that we inherit the guilt of Original Sin.

I have to say, New Advent seems to be telling me something different.

Is Origen considered a church father in Catholicism?

 

[Oblio]

405 Although it is proper to each individual, 295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice,

Thanks Neal. That seems pretty clear.

Feel free to correct us if we misrepresent your faith. We seek the truth here.

In XC,

Chris

 

[Moros]

Folks, it is my guess that this is a work in progress, just like version 1.0

yep.

 

[isshinwhat]

You are welcome, Chris.

God bless you and the Orthodox Church of which you are a part.

Neal

 

[nikephoros_spatharios]

I disagree with the term Roman Catholic as well, for two reasons:

(1) The Church fathers never called the Latins "Roman". The name "Roman" was properly applied to the inhabitants of the Roman Empire, as well as those Romans who were under foreign occuption, be it Muslim or Frankish. At most we can say that the Latins are headed by the Bishop of Rome, not that they are "Roman" in any sense of the word.
(2) The term Catholic is an epithet applied to the One Church of the Creed, and we cannot apply this to the Latins. We would be dishonest to ourselves if we applied it to an entity which we believe does not merit it.

There is of course the problem of what the proper name for the organization headed by the Pope is. That's a problem which I don't have the solution for, at least not one which would be both accurate and polite. I personally use "Latins" as an interim subtitute and which also agrees with traditional usage, even though they are now not predominantly Latin.

 

[Matrona]

I personally use "Latins" as an interim subtitute and which also agrees with traditional usage, even though they are now not predominantly Latin.

Your post makes very good points. In that light, I would say that "Latins" is probably the best term, since Latin as a language is still quite historically significant in that group, even though its liturgical usage among them has declined sharply in recent years.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Me too . .





Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Catholics use 3D statuettes of Christ, the Theotokos, and the Saints. This is forbidden by Lev. 26:1.

3D renderings of Christ are strictly forbidden. Thus, Orthodox do not wear crucifixes. We also have jewelry depicting the Crucifixion, but the Corpus is generally two dimensional and flat.

Really? I've never heard of this....and anyway, that bible verse could be also seen to aply to icons.

cbrickell . . I have no idea what he is talking about.

When I was Orthodox, a crucifix was present after mass was over when people went forward to partake of the sanctified bread . . people would kiss the crucifix.



Here is a description of this:

Do - if invited feel free to receive the leftover consecrated bread. In Greek this is called the "antidoron" and most other branches of Orthodoxy will understand what you mean by this. This is simply bread that was prepared to be a part of the Eucharist and was prayed over by the priest, but was not actually used. Since it was sanctified it can not be thrown away and since many of the congregants have fasted before receiving the Eucharist, and in ancient times had to walk many miles to reach home, the practice arose of distributing this extra bread to the people after the service. If you claim to be a Christian you will likely be invited to have some of this bread, which is usually received by greeting the priest after the service. In some services this comes at the very end of the service, and in others it is after the service and even after the priest has removed his vestments. In any case, one usually joins the line to the priest in front, and then one greets the priest, either by kissing his hand or a crucifix held in his hand, and the priest will say a short blessing for you, sometimes with his hand on you head, and then you will be given the bread. Most Orthodox understand if you find this strange and sometimes they will not invite you to join the reception line but will simply get some bread for you and bring it to you. In any case, it is understood that American Protestants will find the practice of kissing the priest's hand strange and will readily accept you giving the priest a small handshake accompanied by a slight bow.


http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/juc/visit.htm

​

I am really disappointed that such things are being said.



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Thanks Neal. That seems pretty clear.

Feel free to correct us if we misrepresent your faith. We seek the truth here.

In XC,

Chris

Chris

I appreiate that you seek the truth here, and I am too tired to point out what I see as wrong in the OP right now. . .

But I have to tell you, I am really saddened by what I read in the OP . . I am saddened that after all this time and talk, we are still mispresented on issues like original sin . .

I am saddened that the Orthodox are still linking the sex scandal to priestly celibacy when there is no link.

And I am saddened that so many little things are put forward as to what divide us . . these should not be points of division.


My eyes have tears in them..


Good nite all.



Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

I would like to add one more observation . .

Regarding beards . .


My grandfather and my uncle were Orthodox priests (my uncle is still living, but retired)

Neither ever had beards. . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Oblio]

Chris

I appreiate that you seek the truth here, and I am too tired to point out what I see as wrong in the OP right now. . .

But I have to tell you, I am really saddened by what I read in the OP . . I am saddened that after all this time and talk, we are still mispresented on issues like original sin . .

Neal pointed out the CCC claim otherwise, I would hope that this would change the OP.

I am saddened that the Orthodox are still linking the sex scandal to priestly celibacy when there is no link.

It is not the Orthodox but IMO a few isolated individuals that do not speak for The Church nor the community here at TAW. At least one person requested that that comment be removed.

And I am saddened that so many little things are put forward as to what divide us . . these should not be points of division.

There are big things and small things that divide us, I am not sure that the nits and snits should be listed (beards and such ...) . I doubt we or our children will ever see a pre-schism Church.