My problem with Calvinism is that it will always have you looking inward for assurance of your salvation. Lutheranism has you looking outward, at the cross, at the sacraments. It is objective, whereas Calvinism is subjective.
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My problem with Calvinism is that it will always have you looking inward for assurance of your salvation. Lutheranism has you looking outward, at the cross, at the sacraments. It is objective, whereas Calvinism is subjective.
Good Day, Red
As objective as they may be, the issue is one of the subject (you and me) understanding the objective, so it is all subjective for every one thus the subject/object issue ome into play.
As a Calvinist, the objective fact of his death is good enough for me, how I understand that impact is allways a subjective task that we both ponder internally on that which is external.
In Him,
Bill
How do you know that the objective fact of his death is good enough for you? You may have false faith and not be one of the elect.
For the Lutheran, because of the doctrine of Universal Atonement, you know that Christ died for you. You also know that your faith is saving faith.
Good day,
Fake faith is a misnomer. it is no faith in the end.
For the Lutheran that may be true and how you define "Atonement" my be out side the teaching of scripture.
I would agree with Luther on this:
"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned."
I know scripture teaches that the gift of faith is real and I know that the Gospel has effected my life and I know so subjectively, based on the reality of who I now am in Christ by the appoinment of the Father. Your own subjective understanding of the attonement ( the way you define it) does you no better than that.
In Him,
Bill
Also, if you look at Calvin's Institutes, he teaches that there are going to be some people who believe they are saved but are just lying to themselves so much they don't even know it. If you're a Calvinist, how can you be assured that you're not among those who are just lying to themselves so well, they don't even know that they aren't saved.
Because, Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Lutherans also speak of 'hypocrites' in their midst, baptized and taking the Lord's Supper, lying to themselves about their salvation. Just going through the motions, to their judgement.
I'm not trying to play the straw man argument here, like I said, the Calvinist doctrine of election is not faulty because it teaches election, it just goes to an "extreme" (not trying to be pejorative) that Scripture doesn't want to go to. It does this in two ways. First it rips out the comfort and assurance that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are meant to provide.
I agree that some Calvy's have a real problem with thinking they can understand the deep decrees of God, pertaining to election, BUT they seem to have more assurance because as a called and elect child of God, they cannot lose their salvation. God holds them in the end, sinners though they are. Some Lutherans teach you can lose your salvation, walk out of God's election(in spite of what our confessions teach). What comfort and assurance is there?
I'll just make it clear cut by making two statements that a Calvinist can't agree with: God necessarily regenerates (through the Word) a man at Baptism, however the grace of Baptism can be resisted In the Sacrament is given the true Body and Blood of Jesus to believers and non-believers alike. For believers, forgiveness of sins and the assurance of salvation. For unbelievers, to their damnation.
God brings both his children and unbelievers into his visible church through baptism. It regenerates where there is election. It works to judgment where there is not. Calvinists would certainly have no problem with your statement re: The Supper. It works forgiveness of sins, grace and assurance. And judgment to those not of God's own.
Second, I see a problem, given the tenets of limited atonement and Sacramentarian view of Baptism and the Supper, of full total assurance in Calvinism. A Lutheran who is Baptized, receives the Sacraments, and shows fruit can be assured of their salvation. A Calvinist who is Baptized, receives the Sacrament, and shows fruit can say they are almost certainly saved. Ultimately, Calvinism can't go to the Sacraments, it has to go into the hidden will of God, which is of course, unknowable.
That's simply not true. Calvinists certainly look on the sacraments as means of grace. Assuring, correcting, loving. As far as limited Atonement goes, this might help you understand the reformed position a bit. It even quotes Luther!
"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
Honestly, I don't understand why Lutherans don't get how close they are to their Reformed brothers and sisters. I get the Lutheran higher view of the sacraments, but really....the Reformed are not quite the heretics many Lutherans believe 'em to be. And I say this as an almost confirmed Luther-Lutheran.
2) Do unbelievers also receive the body and blood?
Lutherans say yes, Calvinists say no.
That's simply not true. Calvinists certainly look on the sacraments as means of grace. Assuring, correcting, loving. As far as limited Atonement goes, this might help you understand the reformed position a bit. It even quotes Luther!
"Double" Predestination by R.C. Sproul
Honestly, I don't understand why Lutherans don't get how close they are to their Reformed brothers and sisters. I get the Lutheran higher view of the sacraments, but really....the Reformed are not quite the heretics many Lutherans believe 'em to be. And I say this as an almost confirmed Luther-Lutheran.
My problem with Calvinism is that it will always have you looking inward for assurance of your salvation. Lutheranism has you looking outward, at the cross, at the sacraments. It is objective, whereas Calvinism is subjective.
Have the Saxon Visitation Articles been mentioned yet? I just briefly skimmed the thread. If not you can check them out here.
1592 Saxon Visitation Articles
It's about the best document that clearly spells out the differences between Lutheranism and Calvinsim.
I have no trouble with either the Calvinistic or Lutheran view.
Mediaeval,
Thank you for your kind words!
On the Lord's Supper, believe it or not, going Lutheran is a step toward the Calvys for me. I come from a very high-church Anglo-catholic, Episcopal church. Elevation of the Host, ringing bells, guarding the Host during holy week, etc.
I have no trouble with either the Calvinistic or Lutheran view. Spiritual? Yes. Real? Yes. Heavenly? Yes. Supernatural? Yes. Memorial? Yes. I affirm both houses in their fencing of their tables. My LC MS congregation is very much closed communion.
With Donne, I say:
"He was the Word, that spake it:
He took the bread and brake it;
And what that Word did make it,
I do believe and take it."
As my pastor said, "It's a mystery"(gosh..I hope that doesn't put him in the orthodox doggy-house). I am perfectly happy to leave it there, and take Jesus' words of institution just as He meant them.
I am perfectly happy to leave it there, and take Jesus' words of institution just as He meant them.