Difference between amillennialism & preterism

[parousia70]

You are completely wresting the scripture in question, which says absolutely nothing about Satan's power over the elect, but about his power to deceive the nations. It is utter nonsense to even pretend that, at the present time, Satan is not able to deceive the nations. For we plainly see the evidence of this deceit everywhere.

We know satan is bound from deceiving the nations anymore because the nations got accepted into God's covenant as co-heirs with the obedient jewish followers of Christ, back in the first century (Eph 3:3-7; Eph 2:13-19; Acts 26:17-18). This was a massive change in redemptive history.

 

[Biblewriter]

Is the glass half full, or half empty?

Why would anyone claim one of the above and claim the other is "utter nonsense"?

Col 2:13　 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,　
Col 2:14　 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.　
Col 2:15　 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.　

.

Disarming them, making a public spectacle of them, and triumphing over them, is very different from imprisoning them in the bottomless pit.

Again it is manifestly irrational to even pretend that Satan is currently unable to deceive the nations.

 

[BABerean2]

Disarming them, making a public spectacle of them, and triumphing over them, is very different from imprisoning them in the bottomless pit.

2Pe_2:4　 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6　 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

2Pe_2:4　 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6　 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.

You are also ignoring the fact that the bindings referred to in the scriptures you have quoted are permanent, until the great day of judgment, while the binding of Satan, "That he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years were finished." is a temporary binding. The scripture in question, Revelation 20:1-3, explicitly says that, "after these things he must be released for a little while." (Revelation 20:3) And beginning just four verses later we explicitly read, both of his release, and why he will be so released.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9

It is only then that we read of the final and permanent judgment referred to in both of the scriptures you quoted.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

 

[BABerean2]

And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

When does the fire come?


2Th 1:6　 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,　
2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　
2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　
2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.　


When does the "everlasting" destruction come ?

.

 

[Biblewriter]

When does the fire come?


2Th 1:6　 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,　
2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.　
2Th 1:9　 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,　
2Th 1:10　 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.　


When does the "everlasting" destruction come ?

.

The destruction comes upon the wicked of mankind when the Lord comes. And it will be everlasting. But this scripture does not even speak of wicked spirits. It is speaking of wicked humans.

 

[BABerean2]

The destruction comes upon the wicked of mankind when the Lord comes. And it will be everlasting. But this scripture does not even speak of wicked spirits. It is speaking of wicked humans.

For some strange reason you ignored the fact that Christ is coming in "flaming fire" at His return found in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

Why are you trying to ignore the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8 ?



All false Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

For some strange reason you ignored the fact that Christ is coming in "flaming fire" at His return found in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

Why are you trying to ignore the "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:8 ?



All false Bible doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

.

I did not ignore this at all. You are assuming, without any basis for the assumption, that two references to flaming fire have to be speaking abut the same event. I ignored your obvious error and only pointed out the solid scriptural proof that these scriptures were not speaking of the same event.

 

[BABerean2]

I did not ignore this at all. You are assuming, without any basis for the assumption, that two references to flaming fire have to be speaking abut the same event. I ignored your obvious error and only pointed out the solid scriptural proof that these scriptures were not speaking of the same event.

1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　
1Th 4:17　 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Therefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　
1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.　


1Th 5:10　 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.　
(This verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)




2Th 1:7　 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.


　
2Pe 3:10　 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.　



Rev 16:15　 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."　
Rev 16:16　 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

.　

 

[Biblewriter]

The fact that the Lord will come with flaming fire when He comes to judge the world for its iniquity, does not even imply that this is the only time he ever has, or will, judge by fire. So this line of argument is total nonsense. The fact is, that the scriptures plainly state multiple times when this will happen, and even a time in the past when it has already happened.

But it is not only nonsense, it is, as usual a complete derailment of the subject at hand, which is whether or not Satan's binding from being able to deceive the nations has already happened, or remains to happen when the Lord returns to this earth.

 

[Copperhead]

If Satan has been bound already from deceiving the nations or people in general, then his chain is too long. Take a look around.

 

[BABerean2]

But it is not only nonsense, it is, as usual a complete derailment of the subject at hand, which is whether or not Satan's binding from being able to deceive the nations has already happened, or remains to happen when the Lord returns to this earth.

It was my understanding that the subject of this thread is related to amillennialism and preterism.
Therefore presenting the amill position should not be considered "nonsense" or "complete derailment of the subject at hand".

If it can be shown that Christ returns in "flaming fire" as seen in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, it confirms that Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth on the Day of the Lord when Christ returns as a thief, found in 2 Peter 3:10-13.

It also provides a link to the timing in Revelation chapter 20, in which the fire comes at the end of the chapter.

It is considered "nonsense" by you, because it conflicts with your premill doctrine.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

When reading of the scripture makes sense, seek no other sense. Preterism and Amillennialism requires really allegorizing the scripture to extremes. But there is a maxim in computer data processing: if you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything.

Unfortunately, the Bible is written in parabolic language - for a specific reason...
do you know WHAT that reason is?

Secondly, AMillennialism does not require "allegorizing the scripture to extremes",
it requires HARMONY of all related Scripture.

For example, it requires correct understanding of the "First Resurrection"....
Do you know WHEN the "first resurrection" occurs?


.

 

[5thKingdom]

To accept Preterism. Amilennism, Historism, or Idealism requires an assumption that God simply did not mean the very many explicitly stated promises He made in the Old Testament to the ancient nation of Israel,

Or that God used terms like "Israel" and "Judah" and "Sanctuary" and "Holy City"
and "Jerusalem" and "Temple" and "House of God".... and so many other phrases
to represent the "Body of Christ" living in BOTH the OT and NT.

BTW... the differences about the Millennial Kingdom rests on correct understanding
of the "first resurrection".... when do you think the "first resurrection" occurs?

 

[jgr]

when do you think the "first resurrection" occurs?

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[BABerean2]

Do you know WHEN the "first resurrection" occurs?

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.　

.

 

[Biblewriter]

when do you think the "first resurrection" occurs?

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Joh 5:24　 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.　

.

I have seen some real whoppers in the past. But applying these scriptures to the resurrection takes them all.

 

[BABerean2]

I have seen some whoppers. But applying tis scripture to the resurrection takes them all.

(YLT)　 'Verily, verily, I say to you—He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.


What would you call it when a person is passed from death to life?
(if you were not trying to make your doctrine work...)

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Unfortunately, the Bible is written in parabolic language - for a specific reason...
do you know WHAT that reason is?

.

Jesus himself explicitly said the very opposite.

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

The jot and the tittle were the two smallest marks used to construct the individual letters of the Hebrew alphabet. Here Jesus was saying that, not only every word, but even the very spelling of every word, "will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

 

[Biblewriter]

(YLT)　 'Verily, verily, I say to you—He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.


What would you call it when a person is passed from death to life?
(if you were not trying to make your doctrine work...)

.

As this was said concerning people that had not yet passed through death, it most certainly could not even possibly mean their having been raised from a state of physical death, which is not only the obvious context but also the clear statement of Revelation 20:4