Did Yahshua Rise on the 7th Day Shabbat...

[Humble Penny]

Joshua 5:10-11 puts the nail in the coffin for the "Essene" calendar:
While the people of Israel were encamped at Gilgal, they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening on the plains of Jericho. 11 And the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain.

Leviticus 23:14
And bread and parched grain and ripe grain you shall not eat until this very day, until you bring the sacrifice of your God; it shall be an eternal statute for your generations in all your habitations."

Notice anything? They were not allowed to eat the produce of the land until after they made the First Fruits offering. Since they ate the produce of the land the day after Passover, it can only mean First Fruits was the day after Passover! There is no other way! First Fruits can never be the day after Passover on the "Essene" calendar. But if Joshua the prophet caused the Israelites to eat the produce before the First Fruits offering, he was guilty of causing all Israel to sin before Yahweh! Obviously he was not causing them to sin. First Fruits was the day after Passover.

Let's read in context shall we?

”Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you enter the land which I am going to give to you and reap its harvest, then you shall bring in the sheaf of the first fruits of your harvest to the priest. He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Now on the day when you wave the sheaf, you shall offer a male lamb one year old without defect for a burnt offering to the Lord. Its grain offering shall then be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering by fire to the Lord for a soothing aroma, with its drink offering, a fourth of a hin of wine.

Until this same day, until you have brought in the offering of your God, you shall eat neither bread nor roasted grain nor new growth. It is to be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwelling places."
Leviticus 23:9‭-‬14 NASB1995

While the Israelites entered into the land of Canaan, Joshua tells us they were fighting a battle...not farming lol! Also the Law of Moses clearly states that when they reap the new harvest or new growth (i.e. "first fruits of the land") they cannot eat any food until they offered up their first fruits from their produce (i.e. what they farmed).

The passage from Joshua simply says that they are from what the land itself produced. They wouldn't be able to farm until after Joshua distributed the land to them until 8 chapters later! And if you want to get a handle on the timeframe that was 7 Years they spent at war with the Canaanite kingdoms. We know this because Caleb tells us he is 85 Years old when he requests the piece of land promised to him by Moses; he also says that he was 40 Years old when Moses sent him and Joshua to spy out the land of Canaan with the 10 other spies of Israel; and finally Numbers tells us this occured in the 2nd Year after they had gone out of Egypt:

Caleb's 40th Year to Exodus
40 Years
2 Years
38 Years

So Caleb was 38 Years old at the Exodus, and since he was with the Israelites and Moses in the wilderness for 40 Years this means he was 78 Years old at the death of Moses in his 120th Year; 7 Years later brings you to Joshua 13-14.

In short the Israelites weren't farming door 7 Years because they had not yet subdued Canaan and farmed the land. Therefore Joshua 5 and Leviticus 23 aren't in conflict.

 

[Humble Penny]

I see a potential problem right out of the gate.

There's an issue with your line of logic here though because Yeshua couldn't have risen after 3 Days and still rise on the 3rd Day. It is clear that Yeshua is counting 3 Days from His burial, He is not beginning with the day of His burial as Day 1.

And if we take your view to it's logical end that would mean Christ would have risen on the 4th Day after 4 Days and 3 Nights. This would be in straight conflict with the words of Yeshua saying on the 3rd Day He would accomplish His mission.

Post #38 shows my work that I considered what you proposed, but in the end I found it would actually cause all four burial doctrines to have Christ Yeshua rise after 4 Days and 3 Nights. Our Lord was very specific on the numbers, so we should let the chronology help us understand the context of the passages we read.

 

[daq]

Just as a point of reference, there is strong evidence that the Essenes were not at Betharaba. I try to avoid calling Betharaba, Qumran. Betharaba was renamed Qumran by Islam.

It is however found in scripture that this is where Yochanan the Immerser lived. There are huge mikvehs there. It is also where Yahshua began his ministry.

The Essenes living there is a die hard myth. There is strong evidence, even within the scrolls, that when the rightful Zadok Priesthood was ousted from the Temple; that they took the temple scrolls to Betharaba.

Rachel Elior presents a brilliant dissertation on this subject.

I listened to this same lecture about a year and a half ago: very good. There's no doubt the leadership of the Community were Tzaddokim, (not to be confused with Sadducees, probably brethren, but vehemently opposed in doctrine), especially in light of the document called "The Damascus Document".

 

[HARK!]

(CLV) Jn 20:1
Now, on one of the sabbaths, Miriam Magdalene is coming to the tomb in the morning, there being still darkness, and is observing the stone taken away from the door of the tomb.

Well to be blunt, that's some funny translation right there. We know the women rested on Shabbat according to the commandment as we read earlier. So they weren't arriving "on one of the sabbaths", whatever that means. And if it was morning, it would be after sunrise.

Here is what I have on this.

ερχεται πρωι σκοτιας ετι ουσης

IS-COMING morning OF-DARKness STILL BEING


I would have to agree. I read this as "it was still dark and morning was approaching."

 

[HARK!]

Yeshua couldn't have risen after 3 Days

I'm just going by what the text actually says.

 

[HARK!]

The interval from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is three days,

Let's walk through this.

Suppose that we count the day that he was executed as a day in the grave.

That one day.

Then comes Hag Matzot, 1 night.

Hag matzot continues into the day.

That's day 2.

Hag Matzot ends at evening, the second night begins.

That's 2 nights.


(CLV) Jn 20:1
Now, on one of the sabbaths, Miriam Magdalene is coming to the tomb in the morning (Nope! Whoever translated this was on the Roman midnight clock.), there being still darkness, and is observing the stone taken away from the door of the tomb.

This was witnessed in the evening after Hag Matzot. We don't have a witness for when he actually rose, only his own words of three days and three nights.

We're still at 2 days and 2 nights, at most, when the witnesses found the tomb empty. A Friday execution does not match Yahshua's words.

 

[Filippus]

Leviticus 23:14
And bread ......

According to your argument the Passover and unleavened bread then could only be eaten after the 16th.

You have disqualified everyone.

Don't confuse the command to the people v14, with the command to the priest v15.

And it's v15 which is the Firstfruit, not 14.

You shall bring in from your places two loaves of bread as a wave offering, made from two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven as first fruits to the Lord.
Leviticus 23:17

Hope this helps

Shalom

 

[Filippus]

Joshua 5:10-11 puts the nail in the coffin for the "Essene" calendar:
While the people of Israel were encamped at Gilgal, they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening on the plains of Jericho. 11 And the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain.

Leviticus 23:14
And bread and parched grain and ripe grain you shall not eat until this very day, until you bring the sacrifice of your God; it shall be an eternal statute for your generations in all your habitations."

Notice anything? They were not allowed to eat the produce of the land until after they made the First Fruits offering. Since they ate the produce of the land the day after Passover, it can only mean First Fruits was the day after Passover! There is no other way! First Fruits can never be the day after Passover on the "Essene" calendar. But if Joshua the prophet caused the Israelites to eat the produce before the First Fruits offering, he was guilty of causing all Israel to sin before Yahweh! Obviously he was not causing them to sin. First Fruits was the day after Passover.

The problem with using the 16th is that it fails the test on the 50th day, which must fall after a weekly Sabbath.

What do I mean?

If the 16th falls on a Wednesday, the math is simple, the 50th day will always fall on a Wednesday, the math is sound.

Verse16 Until the morrow after the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days;

Now to further support this, the Saddusees, Samaritans, Essenes and Christians supports this because they specify the 1st day of the week.

Hope this helps
Shalom

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Let's walk through this.

We're still at 2 days and 2 nights, at most, when the witnesses found the tomb empty. A Friday execution does not match Yahshua's words.

Don't you read what I write (post 37 & 41)???? Already wrote an extensive post earlier on this!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The problem with using the 16th is that it fails the test on the 50th day, which must fall after a Sabbath.

What do I mean?

If the 16th falls on a Wednesday, the math is simple, the 50th day will always fall on a Wednesday, the math is sound.

Verse16 Until the morrow after the seventh sabbath you shall count off fifty days;

Now to further support this, the Saddusees, Samaritans, Essenes and Christians supports this because they specify the 1st day of the week.

Hope this helps
Shalom

It would be the 16th THAT YEAR...the 14th fell on erev Shabbat. The problem is if you call the feast a Sabbath. That year it was both on the 15th. if the 14th falls on a Wednesday, the count begins on the morrow after the next WEEKLY Shabbat until Shavuot...

 

[Humble Penny]

I'm just going by what the text actually says.

You know I'm not a simpleton brother HARK! I said more than that now...

 

[HARK!]

probably brethren, but vehemently opposed in doctrine

From numerous references found in the Betharaba Scrolls, I'm not so sure that they considered them to be brothers; but that's all I'll say on this subject here.

 

[HARK!]

You know I'm not a simpleton brother HARK! I said more than that now...

I meant no offense; and you did say much more than that. We're very much alike. We are both analytical We're both problem solvers. I've solved very complex problems for most of my career. Not only have I learned to do it at a level of excellence; but with each new exercise, I've spent my life training my mind to work in a methodical, logical fashion. In order to solve these problems, we must make certain assumptions. Those assumptions are built on facts. The next step in solving the problem is to test those assumptions. If those assumptions seem to hold truth, we hold onto those assumptions, and make more assumptions, to move closer to solving the problem. What I have learned is to never treat those assumptions as facts. If I do; and they are in fact, not facts; then I have created a false perception of reality, which will not lead me to a solution. When those assumptions have led me to a dead end; it's time to let go of them, and backtrack to the point where the last fact was established.

At this point in this study, I'm still in the process of presenting, gathering, and ascertaining the facts.

Shalom, Brother.

 

[daq]

From numerous references found in the Betharaba Scrolls, I'm not so sure that they considered them to be brothers; but that's all I'll say on this subject here.

Yeah, I only meant according to the physical. They called the Community Damascus, (Dammeshek, probably a word play for blood inheritor). But that too is probably for a different thread seeing how Paul was on his way there when, uh, nevermind.

 

[Filippus]

That year it was both on the 15th.

To recap in above you are placing the 15th on the 1st day of the week?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

To recap in above you are placing the 15th on the 1st day of the week?

No, the 15th was Shabbat, the 16th was the 1st of the week...Yom Rishon

 

[Filippus]

The three national feasts then all fall on the 15th corrected using Ex19:1:
15th 1st Month
15th 3st Month
15th 7st Month

 

[Filippus]

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

View attachment 311289
The three national feasts then all fall on the 15th corrected using Ex19:1:
15th 1st Month
15th 3st Month
15th 7st Month

Are you replying to me? Not sure what you are doing...I said that Aviv 15 was a Shabbat that year...

 

[HARK!]

The three national feasts then all fall on the 15th corrected using Ex19:1:
15th 1st Month
15th 3st Month
15th 7st Month

I'm not sure of the purpose of presenting those calendars which have more days than a lunar cycle; so I didn't include them in the quote.

This doesn't seem to work for Shavuot

What is 51/~28?