Did the universe begin to exist?

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Maybe the problem is that you're trying to describe something that doesn't exist. There is no before.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but I will answer that material existence did begin at some point in time. It is a point of Christian doctrine to accept that God did create the Universe at some finite point, since Genesis describes definitely a creation event which does not extend backward into infinity.

 

[ebia]

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but I will answer that material existence did begin at some point in time. It is a point of Christian doctrine to accept that God did create the Universe at some finite point, since Genesis describes definitely a creation event which does not extend backward into infinity.

No-one is saying otherwise.

The point is that if time is part of the created order then that beginning is the beginning of time. There is no before that.

 

[pgp_protector]

No-one is saying otherwise.

The point is that if time is part of the created order then that beginning is the beginning of time. There is no before that.

Sorta like when at the south pole, their isn't a point more south.

 

[ebia]

Sorta like when at the south pole, their isn't a point more south.

Kind of, yes.

 

[ptomwebster]

I don't think I agree. My imagination is something I conjure up within my mind that cannot be perceived through my senses. I can observe the universe just by looking up, so I don't think I'm just imagining what I see.

So the universe exists and your OP in mute.

 

[Assyrian]

Did the universe begin to exist?

This is actually a very old question, whether the universe existed an infinitely long time and had no beginning or has only existed a finite time and had a beginning. Aquinas came up against the question because an infinitely old universe was what Aristotle taught. Aquinas believed that neither position could be proved, which is still the case today, and he stuck with the tradition Christian position of the universe having a beginning. But he explored both sides of the question and said the if it could be shown that the universe has existed for an infinite time, this can still be reconciled with God the creator because an infinitely old universe would still be eternally being created by God.

Aquinas seemed to think of time and eternity as linear, and had no concept of Cantor's idea that there are different infinities, some vastly, infinitely greater than others. Which gives other answers as well as Aquinas's eternal creating:
That God could have created the universe that existed infinitely long, and yet have existed himself infinitely long before that.
Or that eternity is outside time even an infinitely long time and God could have created the universe not from a point before infinitely long ago but completely outside it.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

No-one is saying otherwise.

The point is that if time is part of the created order then that beginning is the beginning of time. There is no before that.

Ah. Then sort of. Obviously there can't be a "before" time within time, since time is just another facet of the material Universe acting to separate events. You could have a "before" time if you also consider the aeviternal (angels, for instance), since they have a before and after that isn't identical to time (Assyrian isn't the only one here who's read Aquinas), but yeah, I know what you mean

The material world began to exist at a point in time, so if we were to somehow see all the events which are separated by space time as God does, even with finite ability to take them in (unlike God's infinite ability) we could see that they don't go on forever and conclude that time has an endpoint.

Assyrian, I've read Aquinas' argument that, although it is a point of Christian doctrine, it's not possible logically to prove that the world began in time, and he makes some good points. Still, while he didn't mention it there, he did believe that Christianity requires a world finite in duration prior to this point (The Eternity of the World was written in response to some theologians with whom Aquinas disagreed, rather to the Averroeites, who followed a philosopher who held strictly to a belief in an eternal Earth; Aquinas took the view that Christianity required an Earth finite in duration, but unguided reason alone did not).