Did the universe begin to exist?

[ptomwebster]

No, the universe is all your imagination.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Ask the atheist how any physical being could be self-sustaining (as many purport the universe to be) when every physical being we have observed thus far has not been able to sustain itself, especially considering that every physical being is composed of some other physical beings that cannot sustain themselves (for instance, a human and his cells, or a galaxy and its stars) and that the universe is wholly composed of beings which cannot sustain themselves.

 

[Nanopants]

The idea of a universe that had no beginning, but which had always existed as it does now, and would always exist in the future as it exists now, was the belief of Albert Einstein. When the Big Bang theory was first formuleted in the 1920's he argued against it, as it did not seem to be aesthetically neat enough for him. It was only after he was presented with evidence showing the 'flying away' of the galaxies contained within the universe that he grudgingly accepted it.

But this posed a problem which Albert Einstein himself recognized earlier than many others. Under his original belief that the universe was permanently fixed in a certain place, always had been in that place, and always would be in that place, there was no need to concern himself with a Prime Mover (he had proclaimed himself to be an atheist). But when he realized that the universe had a definite point in time and space where an initial action started the chain of events which has culminated in our living on this planet today, his own theory of relativity dictated that the action (The Big Bang) must also be seen as a reaction to another action which had preceded it. It is believed that this led in his later years to his saying that he believed in the God of Spinoza.

That's interesting. I wasn't aware that Einstein was ever an atheist; I always assumed that he was just very quiet about his spiritual beliefs, which I can understand considering that being open about them is an easy way to discredit yourself in the scientific community. In one of my favorite quotes, he seems to show a reflection on the universe as having revealed a higher intelligence...

"It is enough for me to contemplate the mystery of conscious life perpetuating itself through all eternity, to reflect upon the marvelous structure of the universe which we dimly perceive, and to try humbly to comprehend an infinitesimal part of the intelligence manifested in nature." (source)

​

I might not be reading it correctly.

 

[Metal Minister]

"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
-Albert Einstein

As it turns out, he was a deist.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
-Albert Einstein

 

[christseeker45]

Upon discussing creation and other topics related to creation, I am genuinely curious of something. How should we Christians understand the universe? We say God created the universe, but what exactly does that mean?

The poll is straightforward, but if anyone wants to comment further on their answer or answer the other above questions it is encouraged.

I believe God created the Universal with the big bang which was an explosion of light when He said "Let there be light"

Genesis 1:3

 

[elopez]

No, the universe is all your imagination.

I don't think I agree. My imagination is something I conjure up within my mind that cannot be perceived through my senses. I can observe the universe just by looking up, so I don't think I'm just imagining what I see.

 

[Going Merry]

I don't believe the universe is God.
I believe the universe is a creation of said God.

 

[Nanopants]

I think that's what most of us here would say.

 

[elopez]

From my perspective, all that exists of my own past is my memory of it, and my memory exists as a biological state in the present moment- it's material. Likewise, my concept of the future is only a cognitive projection that relies on my perception of the past. So the concept of time as I perceive it to be is only the perception of change.

I think it depends on what you mean by "exist." I believe non - present things can be said to exist, not in the way that I could see them, but to mean that they are simply things that should be considered to exist. Even then, things from the past could still presently exist. Also, saying your memory is something material is only true in that encoding allows for information that is external to us to be contacted in forms of physical and chemical stimuli.

TBH I do not know what the universe is but if it had a beginning, there's no reason that I know of to assume that change did not exist before its beginning. There may have been other universes or realities, etc. Eternal material change seems much more feasible to me than the idea that nothing existed before our own reality came into being.

Whatever the universe exactly is should be regarded in the context of God as Creator. This way, there is reason to think there was no change present 'before' the beginning of the universe.

If God created the universe and is eternal, then God is timeless. If God exists in an eternal, timeless state, then there can be no change. There would have been no other universes and therefore no other realities. Creation ex nihilo assumes God as 'something' before the universe coming into existence. When it refers to 'nothing' it is meant there is no pre - existent matter for God to create with. If there is, like you seem to be saying, which is actually called creation ex materia, then the universe is essentially eternal as God as there was always matter existing alongside God. That, by definition, would strip the meaning of a beginning.

 

[elopez]

I don't believe the universe is God.
I believe the universe is a creation of said God.

So does "creation" of God imply a beginning?

 

[Going Merry]

So does "creation" of God imply a beginning?

God has always existed.
To imply the universe has always existed is putting it in the place of God.

 

[elopez]

God has always existed.
To imply the universe has always existed is putting it in the place of God.

Right, a simple yes would have done lol.

Though, if the universe began to exist, do you think there is a casual relation of God and the universe, and if so what does that entail?

 

[ebia]

God has always existed.
To imply the universe has always existed is putting it in the place of God.

Well, if time is itself a part of the created cosmos then the universe has always existed. That is, there is no time when it hasn't existed. But it has a beginning; an instant when creation and time began. It's just that there is no "before" that.

 

[elopez]

Well, if time is itself a part of the created cosmos then the universe has always existed.

So time is therefore infinite or eternal? How so being God existed in an eternal and timeless state without the existence of the universe?

That is, there is no time when it hasn't existed. But it has a beginning; an instant when creation and time began. It's just that there is no "before" that.

I am not sure but I think what you're saying here contradicts what you said above. If time began to exist, and just that there is no time 'before' time, then time is not infinite or eternal.

In all, I'm confused by your post...

 

[ebia]

So time is therefore infinite or eternal?

No

 

[Going Merry]

time is just a measurement
you cant put this on God
God is outside of time

Who created the concept in itself?
Scripture says Jesus is the first born for all creation, so everything was created through Jesus

 

[Radagast]

In all, I'm confused by your post...

I'm confused by yours, since you claim to be Catholic, and these things (God being outside time, the universe being created, and time beginning at the moment of creation) are, I'm led to believe, de fide.

 

[Radagast]

But the singularity is accepted by scientists as not only a single point in time and space, but also a single element, namely, hydrogen. When the Big Bang occurred, mainstream science teaches that this element, the lightest atomic weight known to us, was the only element in existence.

Are you sure? I understood that at the singularity no elements were in existence. Very soon after the singularity, loose quarks and leptons formed.

Protons (= hydrogen nuclei) only formed about one microsecond after the singularity. Those protons then combined with electrons to form hydrogen atoms about 380,000 years later.

 

[elopez]

No

Then what did you mean when you said, "if time is itself a part of the created cosmos then the universe has always existed"?

 

[elopez]

I'm confused by yours, since you claim to be Catholic, and these things (God being outside time, the universe being created, and time beginning at the moment of creation) are, I'm led to believe, de fide.

And your point is? I am really not making sense of you.