Did the Thief on the Cross go to Paradise on Crucifixion Friday?

[Paul4JC]

So you understand this to mean that Jesus went down to hell, the "lower earthy regions"? I would interpret this to mean that he was up in heaven, and descended to earth itself.

The Lord Jesus did not ascend until 40 days after his resurrection. You're confusing the meaning of the word hell, and the fire of hell. Hell is Hades, the NT equivalent of OT Sheol, the underworld.

17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " [Jhn 20:17 NIV]

3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. [Act 1:3 NIV]

It's also in the Apostles Creed.The Full Text of the Apostles' Creed - Bibles.net

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here is the story of the Thief on the Cross from Luke:



But did Jesus go to paradise that day (Crucifixion Friday)? Didn't He rest, dead in the tomb until Resurrection morning (Sunday morning)?

I am SDA, which teaches Christian Mortalism, and I have always been taught that Christ Himself did not ascend to the Father until after His meeting with Mary on Sunday morning. So how could the thief have accompanied him to paradise that Friday night?

The answer I have been given is that a better translation would be:

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Apparently the original Greek did not contain commas, and the construction of the text is such that either translation is possible. And yet every translation listed here puts the comma BEFORE the 'today'.

I'll include the portion from the SDA Bible commentary on this passage below.



What do you think, were Jesus and the thief in Paradise on Friday evening?

Best wishes,

Kevin

Paradise refers to the place of the righteous dead.

In the Old Testament the place of the dead is called She'ol, which translates to "pit" or "grave". By the time of Jesus the idea of She'ol, translated into Greek as Hades, involved a bit more detail. Everyone goes to She'ol, everyone goes to the place of death; but two terms were used to refer to two different experiences or we might call "parts" of She'ol. The place of the wicked dead was called Gehenna, it's the term that Jesus uses throughout the Gospels; Gehenna is the Hellenized form of Ge-Hinnom, "Valley of Hinnom". The literal Hinnom Valley was the place where the ancient worshipers of Molech would commit their vile acts of child sacrifice. When Jesus talks about Gehenna He uses the language of fire, darkness, and maggots. On the other hand, there was also Gan-Eden, "the Garden of Eden", an obvious reference to the garden of Genesis. In Greek we see the use of the word paradaisos, "paradise", but this is actually a loan-word from Persian, and it referred to a garden. The idea is that, in contrast to the wicked dead who experience something awful using the language relating to the Hinnom Valley; the righteous dead experience something blessed using the language of the Garden of Eden, "Paradise".

When the Lord died, He also went to the place of the dead, to She'ol. But He didn't go to the place of the wicked dead where there is punishment; but to the place of the righteous dead, to Paradise. When Jesus tells the thief "You will be with Me in Paradise" it means the thief will be counted among the righteous, and both he and Jesus will be in the same "place" in death.

When Christians confess the Apostles' Creed, we recite together that the Lord Jesus "descended into hell", this phrase does not mean Jesus went to where sinners are punished, it means that Jesus went to the place of death; the Latin word here is "inferos" or "lower regions" or "netherworld"--the place of the dead. But Christ's descent was to defeat death, to overcome death--and the place of death, hell/hades/she'ol. So the language of Christ's descent is the language of Christ dying and, simultaneously, by His dying and subsequent rising, defeating death and all things related to death. So in Hebrews we read that Christ has destroyed the power of death and defeated the one who wielded that power against us, aka the devil. So that by dying and rising Christ has conquered sin, death, hell, and the devil.

It is that victory that the Lord speaks to the thief, the thief will be counted among the righteous, among the saints--the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament--and be part of those who share in what Christ gives by His dying and rising: everlasting life. The foretaste is to be in the Lord's presence, which all who are in Christ experience in bodily sleep; and the fullness is in the resurrection of the body.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[KevinT]

Paradise refers to the place of the righteous dead.

What about when Paul speaks of the man (thought to be Paul himself) being caught up into paradise? This doesn't sound like the grave.

3 And I know the same man (whether in the body or out of the body I cannot tell, God knows), 4 how he was taken up into Paradise and heard words not to be spoken, which no man can utter.

In the Old Testament the place of the dead is called She'ol, which translates to "pit" or "grave". By the time of Jesus the idea of She'ol, translated into Greek as Hades, involved a bit more detail.

This evolution of considering death to be like the Greek Hades, where the dead may be visited and conversed with, crept into Jewish thinking based on their exposure to pagan theories. I see no evidence that this new thinking came by revelations from God.

Everyone goes to She'ol, everyone goes to the place of death; but two terms were used to refer to two different experiences or we might call "parts" of She'ol. The place of the wicked dead was called Gehenna, it's the term that Jesus uses throughout the Gospels; Gehenna is the Hellenized form of Ge-Hinnom, "Valley of Hinnom". The literal Hinnom Valley was the place where the ancient worshipers of Molech would commit their vile acts of child sacrifice. When Jesus talks about Gehenna He uses the language of fire, darkness, and maggots. On the other hand, there was also Gan-Eden, "the Garden of Eden", an obvious reference to the garden of Genesis. In Greek we see the use of the word paradaisos, "paradise", but this is actually a loan-word from Persian, and it referred to a garden.

OK

The idea is that, in contrast to the wicked dead who experience something awful using the language relating to the Hinnom Valley; the righteous dead experience something blessed using the language of the Garden of Eden, "Paradise".

Yes Jesus talked about the destruction of the wicked in Gehenna, but He is talking about destruction, not a new residence for the people to live in.

Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."

When the Lord died, He also went to the place of the dead, to She'ol. But He didn't go to the place of the wicked dead where there is punishment; but to the place of the righteous dead, to Paradise. When Jesus tells the thief "You will be with Me in Paradise" it means the thief will be counted among the righteous, and both he and Jesus will be in the same "place" in death.

Where does the Bible say that Paradise is in the grave? I find only 3 instances of the word paradise:

Bible search results

1. Luke 23:43
   Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 12:4
   was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Revelation 2:7
   Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

source

I feel putting paradise to be in hell (or the grave / sheol etc) is unfounded.

When Christians confess the Apostles' Creed, we recite together that the Lord Jesus "descended into hell", ...

I know that the Apostle's creed is a bedrock of many denominations, but many others do not see it as authoritative. I prefer to stick to the Bible itself.

It is that victory that the Lord speaks to the thief, the thief will be counted among the righteous, among the saints--the patriarchs and prophets of the Old Testament--and be part of those who share in what Christ gives by His dying and rising: everlasting life. The foretaste is to be in the Lord's presence, which all who are in Christ experience in bodily sleep; and the fullness is in the resurrection of the body.

-CryptoLutheran

This was a very thoughtful post, and I appreciate the time you put into writing it. I see things differently, but I appreciate you explaining how you understand this.

Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[KevinT]

Jesus is God so he was in heaven as he spoke to the thief on the cross because, being God, he is omnipresent.

This is a different point of view that I have not heard of before. I think you are RCC. Does the RCC hold that as Jesus ministered here on earth, that he was ALSO up in heaven, being both omnipresent and also incarnate? If so, what about when Jesus was on the cross, and He cries out "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me"? What was happening there?

Kevin

 

[KevinT]

Thanks for sharing.

Did you look at the resource I mentioned? What do you think about the Pope writing in support of Christian Mortalism, before being convinced by cardinals to back off the position? Or of any of the other points I raised?

KT

 

[RDKirk]

This evolution of considering death to be like the Greek Hades, where the dead may be visited and conversed with, crept into Jewish thinking based on their exposure to pagan theories. I see no evidence that this new thinking came by revelations from God.

Sometimes even a blind squirrel finds an acorn, such as Paul declared to the believers of the Unknown God.

 

[RileyG]

Did you look at the resource I mentioned? What do you think about the Pope writing in support of Christian Mortalism, before being convinced by cardinals to back off the position? Or of any of the other points I raised?

KT

I think it’s odd.

 

[Palmfever]

It's my understanding "He descended into hell" in the apostle and Nicene's creed, is referring to Sheol, and Christ brought the righteous to heaven.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Christ did not go to heaven with the thief. He remained on earth for 40 more days.
Acts 1
The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised​

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Jesus Ascends to Heaven​

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Remember this?

John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

 

[RileyG]

Christ did not go to heaven with the thief. He remained on eart for 40 more days.
Acts 1
The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, 3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

The Holy Spirit Promised​

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Jesus Ascends to Heaven​

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Remember this?

John 20
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Thanks for the reminder! I appreciate you quoting scripture

God bless

 

[Paul4JC]

People like to use this single verse to form their doctrine that Paradise is in heaven now.

It does not say anything even close to that. Those OT saints in Paradise were not even captives in the first place.

Where is your doctrine? Where is Paradise in the Old Testament? It was removed. People went to Sheol in the OT (except for two: Enoch and Elijah).

Genesis 1:1 (ESV)

"sheol" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Paradise - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway​

[1Sa 28:15a] Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up )?"

[Job 26:5-6 ] "The dead are in deep anguish, those beneath the waters and all that live in them. 6 The realm of the dead (repha) is naked before God; Destruction (Abaddon) lies uncovered. (Abaddon is Apollyon in the New Testament, aka abyss)

There are 3 realms we know of.

[Phl 2:10] …at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, [Original Word: καταχθόνιος, ον Phonetic Spelling: (kat-akh-thon'-ee-os) Definition: under the earth]

[Rev 5:3] But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

Christ is Lord over all 3 realms.
[1Pe 3:18b-19] He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--

[2Pe 2:4 NIV] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to (Tartarus), putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

[Jde 1:6 NIV] And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

[Rom 10:6-7 ESV] But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

[Act 2:31] Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.

The Apostle Paul visited Paradise. This is after Christ's ascension.

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. ... 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. [2Co 12:2, 4 NIV]

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is a different point of view that I have not heard of before. I think you are RCC. Does the RCC hold that as Jesus ministered here on earth, that he was ALSO up in heaven, being both omnipresent and also incarnate? If so, what about when Jesus was on the cross, and He cries out "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me"? What was happening there?

Kevin

It is a Christian belief that God is omnipresent, and that Jesus is God. In my previous post, I reasoned that Jesus, while on the cross, spoke as the Son of God about paradise to the thief. Since Jesus is God, He would know the thief's fate. As the Word of God, He is in heaven, and as the incarnate God-man, He was physically on earth as He spoke. If you're asking whether Christ will be with the thief in paradise, my response is that He will be, as God the Son.

 

[trophy33]

This evolution of considering death to be like the Greek Hades, where the dead may be visited and conversed with, crept into Jewish thinking based on their exposure to pagan theories. I see no evidence that this new thinking came by revelations from God.

Bible is not its own dictionary. There is no lexicon at the back of the Bible where we can search for word definitions "revealed by God".

Thats why when the Biblical authors used a term, we must study the time and the culture of their era to understand what they meant.

For example, when Luke wrote that Paul boarded a ship, we must look at the secular culture to know what a ship is/was. Bible does not define it. Bible does not define places, names, who were Romans, what is an emperor, what is a cross, what is a tomb, what or where is Greece etc. And in the same way, Bible also does not define hades, paradise or sheol, these are terms both the authors and readers knew from their culture. When the authors used it, they referred to the common knowledge/usage.

 

[Jamdoc]

the body of Jesus was brought down from the cross when it hit evening at the beginning of Friday (Hebrews mark days beginning at Evening), so Crucifixion Thursday.

 

[KevinT]

It is a Christian belief that God is omnipresent, and that Jesus is God. In my previous post, I reasoned that Jesus, while on the cross, spoke as the Son of God about paradise to the thief. Since Jesus is God, He would know the thief's fate. As the Word of God, He is in heaven, and as the incarnate God-man, He was physically on earth as He spoke. If you're asking whether Christ will be with the thief in paradise, my response is that He will be, as God the Son.

This is an interesting and novel concept that I have not encountered before. I think it gets to the heart of the mystery of the nature of God. I.e. how can God all be One, but yet have 3 different parts / roles? (Father / Son / Spirit). And can something happen to one that doesn't happen to the other. I will lump this in with other mysteries that I hope to have explained to me in the new Kingdom.

Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[trophy33]

how can God all be One, but yet have 3 different parts / roles? (Father / Son / Spirit).

Interestingly, believing that God's triunity is about 3 different parts (partialism) or roles (modalism) is considered heretical by the Christianity that is based on historical creeds.

And as the unwritten forum law goes, this known video must be attached:

 

[Valletta]

This is a different point of view that I have not heard of before. I think you are RCC. Does the RCC hold that as Jesus ministered here on earth, that he was ALSO up in heaven, being both omnipresent and also incarnate? If so, what about when Jesus was on the cross, and He cries out "My God, My God, why have you abandoned me"? What was happening there?

Kevin

I don't know if the Catholic Church has weighed in about the question "where" Jesus was at each moment, especially given that God is above time.
As to that phrase, it is the beginning of a Psalm that ends up in showing trust in God.

 

[KevinT]

the body of Jesus was brought down from the cross when it hit evening at the beginning of Friday (Hebrews mark days beginning at Evening), so Crucifixion Thursday.

But he rested the next day, the Sabbath. So Crucifixion Friday?

KT

 

[KevinT]

Bible is not its own dictionary. There is no lexicon at the back of the Bible where we can search for word definitions "revealed by God".

Thats why when the Biblical authors used a term, we must study the time and the culture of their era to understand what they meant.

For example, when Luke wrote that Paul boarded a ship, we must look at the secular culture to know what a ship is/was. Bible does not define it. Bible does not define places, names, who were Romans, what is an emperor, what is a cross, what is a tomb, what or where is Greece etc. And in the same way, Bible also does not define hades, paradise or sheol, these are terms both the authors and readers knew from their culture. When the authors used it, they referred to the common knowledge/usage.

Yes, when we read that Paul boarded a ship, it would be appropriate to look into other contemporary literature to understand what a "ship" (or the word in the Greek) means. But when we say that Jesus went to the grave (Hades), it would not be appropriate to look to Homer, and his depiction of Hades during the journeys of Odysseus , to find the truth about the reality of Christ's death.

KT

 

[Jamdoc]

But he rested the next day, the Sabbath. So Crucifixion Friday?

KT

No

Luke 23

50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:
51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.
52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The Day of Preparation is Friday, the day before the Sabbath (Saturday) which begins when we would call it Friday Evening, remember the Hebrews start their day at evening rather than midnight.
So Jesus was crucified Thursday, buried on the Friday in the evening, was in the tomb over Saturday, and then Resurrected Sunday morningt.

The Hebrews count the day that they are on when marking "after 3 days", so it was "on the third day" as we would reckon it, so Friday, Saturday, and on Sunday, the 3rd day, He rose.

 

[RDKirk]

But when we say that Jesus went to the grave (Hades), it would not be appropriate to look to Homer, and his depiction of Hades during the journeys of Odysseus , to find the truth about the reality of Christ's death.

That's how the audience of those scriptures would understand it, though.