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Did the Thief on the Cross go to Paradise on Crucifixion Friday?

KevinT

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Here is the story of the Thief on the Cross from Luke:

Luke 23:40-43 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

But did Jesus go to paradise that day (Crucifixion Friday)? Didn't He rest, dead in the tomb until Resurrection morning (Sunday morning)?

I am SDA, which teaches Christian Mortalism, and I have always been taught that Christ Himself did not ascend to the Father until after His meeting with Mary on Sunday morning. So how could the thief have accompanied him to paradise that Friday night?

The answer I have been given is that a better translation would be:

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.

Apparently the original Greek did not contain commas, and the construction of the text is such that either translation is possible. And yet every translation listed here puts the comma BEFORE the 'today'.

I'll include the portion from the SDA Bible commentary on this passage below.

To day. Gr. semerort. As originally written, the Greek was without punctuation, and the adverb semerort, “today,” stands between two clauses which read, literally, “truly to you I say” and “with me you will be in the paradise.” Greek usage permitted an adverb to appear anywhere in a sentence the speaker or writer desired to place it. Merely from the Greek construction of the sentence in question it is impossible to determine whether the adverb “today” modifies “I say” or “you will be.” Either is possible. The question is, Did Jesus mean to say, literally, “Truly to you I say today,” or “Today with me you will be in paradise”? The only way of knowing which Christ meant is to discover scriptural answers to some other questions: (1) What is paradise? (2) Did Jesus go to paradise on the day of His crucifixion? (3) What did Jesus teach about the time when men would enter upon their reward in paradise? For an answer to the first question see below on the word “paradise.” For answers to the second and third questions see below on the words “be with me.”​

Be with me. On the eve of the betrayal — less than 24 hours before making this promise to the thief — Jesus had told the Twelve, “In my Father’s house are many mansions. ... I go to prepare a place for you. ... I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (see on John 14:1-3). Yet, three days later Jesus informed Mary, “I am not yet ascended to my Father” (John 20: 17). Obviously, therefore, Jesus did not go to paradise, and was not in paradise, on the day of His crucifixion. Accordingly, the thief could not have been with Jesus in paradise.
Paradise. Gr. paradeisos, a transliteration of the Persian pairidaeza, meaning an “enclosure,” “park,” or “preserve” containing trees, in which animals were often kept for the hunt. It was enclosed by walls and sometimes furnished with towers for the hunters.​
The equivalent Hebrew word, pardes. is translated “forest,” or “orchard” (see on Neh.​
2:8; Eccl. 2:5). In the FXX the “garden” of Eden is spoken of as the “paradise” of Eden (see on Gen. 2:8). In fact, paradeisos is common in the FXX where the word “garden” (Heb. gan ) appears in the English translation (see Gen. 3:1; Isa. 51:3; Joel 2:3; etc.).​
In the NT paradeisos occurs only in Fuke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7. In 2 Cor. 12:2-4 “paradise” is obviously synonymous with “heaven.” The fact that Paul refers to no earthly “paradise” is doubly clear from the fact he equates being “caught up” to “heaven” with being “caught up” to “paradise.” According to Rev. 2:7 the “tree of life” is said to be “in the midst of the paradise of God,” whereas in Rev. 2 1 : 1-3, 10; Rev. 22: 1-5 the tree of life is associated with the new earth, the New Jerusalem, the river of life, and the throne of God. There can be no doubt whatever that NT usage of paradeisos consistently makes it synonymous with “heaven.”​
Therefore, when Jesus assured the thief of a place with Him in “paradise,” He referred to the “many mansions” of His “Father’s house” and to the time when He would “receive” unto Himself His own (see on John 14:1-3). Throughout His ministry Jesus had specifically stated that He would “reward every man according to his works” when He returned in triumph “in the glory of his Father with his angels” (see on Matt. 16:27). Not until that time will He invite the saved of earth to “inherit the kingdom prepared for” them “from the foundation of the world” (see on Matt. 25:3 1, 34; cf. Rev. 22:21). Paul taught that those who fall asleep in Jesus will come forth from their graves at Christ’s second coming (see 1 Cor. 15:20-23) to receive immortality (vs. 51-55). The resurrected righteous and righteous living will “be caught up together ... to meet the Ford in the air,” and thus “ever be with the Ford” (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). The thief will, accordingly, be “with” Jesus in “paradise” following the resurrection of the just, at His second coming.​
It should be noted that the comma between the words “thee” and “to day” was inserted by the translators. The original Greek text, which had neither punctuation nor word division (see p. 115) reads: amen soi lego semeron met emou ese en to paradeiso, literally, “truly to-you I-say today with-me you-will-be in the paradise.” The adverb semeron, “today,” stands between the two verbs lego, “I-say,” and ese, “you-will-be,” and might properly apply to either. Its position immediately following the verb lego, “I-say,” may imply a closer grammatical relationship to it than to the verb ese, “you will be.”​
Obviously, in placing the comma before the word “to day,” the translators were guided by the unscriptural concept that the dead enter into their rewards at death. But, as set forth above, it is manifest that neither Jesus nor the writers of the NT believed or taught such a doctrine. To place the comma before the word “today” thus makes Christ contradict what He and the various NT writers have plainly stated elsewhere.​
Accordingly, the Scriptures themselves require that the comma be placed after the word “to day,” not before it. See on John 4:35, 36.​
Thus what Christ actually said to the thief on the cross was: “Verily I say unto thee today, Thou shalt be with me in paradise.” The great question the thief was pondering at the moment was not when he would reach paradise, but whether he would get there at all. Jesus’ simple statement assures him that, however undeserving he may be and however impossible it may appear for Jesus — dying the death of a condemned criminal — to make good such a promise, the thief will most assuredly be there. In fact, it was Jesus’ presence on the cross that made such a hope possible.

What do you think, were Jesus and the thief in Paradise on Friday evening?

Best wishes,

Kevin
 

KevinT

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When the thief next woke up he was--or when he next wakes up he will be-- in paradise. I think that in the grand scheme of things, it's irrelevant.
I agree. But for some, this text seems to be support that people go to heaven immediately after they die. One of my points in posting this is to explore this idea.

KT
 
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trophy33

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It most probably means that he was with Jesus in paradise on that exact day.

1. "Amen, I tell you today" is a nonexistent phrase in the Bible and also quite nonsensical.

2. There is plenty of instances of Jesus beginning his words with "Amen, I tell you", followed by the message - therefore there is no valid textual reason why this one should be different,

Its one of many things the SDA is wrong about.
 
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Matt5

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When you die you don't know the passage of time. So a thousand years would be the same as today to the (dead) thief.

I think paradise means the kingdom of heaven on Earth. This is established after Jesus does a full planetary takeover. We're not there yet.
 
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RileyG

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When the thief next woke up he was--or when he next wakes up he will be-- in paradise. I think that in the grand scheme of things, it's irrelevant.
What do you mean by woke up?
 
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KevinT

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It most probably means that he was with Jesus in paradise on that exact day.

1. "Amen, I tell you today" is a nonexistent phrase in the Bible and also quite nonsensical.

2. There is plenty of instances of Jesus beginning his words with "Amen, I tell you", followed by the message - therefore there is no valid textual reason why this one should be different,

Its one of many things the SDA is wrong about.
So what do you think was meant by Jesus not having yet ascended to the Father. Wouldn't that mean that He had not yet been to paradise?

KT
 
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KevinT

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Its one of many things the SDA is wrong about.
It would be naive of me to think that just because I was raised SDA, that every teaching they present is correct. That is one reason I'm posting this here, so others can show me a different, coherent view. It is very easy to fall back into a, "this is the way I was raised, and my parents, and my grandparents -- so it MUST be right," way of thinking. I would like to test my views for errors.

Best wishes,

KT
 
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Guojing

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I agree. But for some, this text seems to be support that people go to heaven immediately after they die. One of my points in posting this is to explore this idea.

KT

Paradise here refers to the part of hell where Abraham and the rest of the OT saints reside, as they wait for Christ's 2nd coming for the nation of Israel.

It does not refer to heaven.
 
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trophy33

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So what do you think was meant by Jesus not having yet ascended to the Father. Wouldn't that mean that He had not yet been to paradise?

KT
Jesus ascending to Father was, in the context, about His physical ascension. But the sheol/underworld was the place for souls, after the body died - a temporary place where people waited for resurrection and judgement.

Paradise, in the Jewish thought, was a specific place in the underworld for "good" people. According to some, this Paradise was relocated to heaven, some time after the Jesus' victory.

The word "paradise" as such is a Persian word, meaning "a garden", or "a park". It was a separated place (mostly by walls) that was taken care of to be pleasant. Such paradises were frequently near kings' palaces, for the people from the palaces to relax in. Jews used this word to describe some kind of a pleasant compartment of sheol.
 
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timothyu

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2 points. The Kingdom is not yet come so the dead have no place to take a new form yet. Second, just becasue someone entered a comma to scripture that had no punctuation, and conveniently placed it to give that impression, it could just as easily have said that 'I tell you today,' .
 
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KevinT

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Paradise here refers to the part of hell where Abraham and the rest of the OT saints reside, as they wait for Christ's 2nd coming for the nation of Israel.

It does not refer to heaven.

Many people discuss an “intermediate state”, a status of people after death, but before the resurrection. I have not heard of this referred to as “hell”. I always hear hell as the location of torment of the lost. Can you explain why you would describe Abraham as being in hell?

Thanks for the reply.

KT
 
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KevinT

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Jesus ascending to Father was, in the context, about His physical ascension. But the sheol/underworld was the place for souls, after the body died - a temporary place where people waited for resurrection and judgement.
Can you give a source for this? As the book of Acts points out there was disagreement about the state of the dead between the Pharisees and Sadducees. So there was obviously a plurality of views. The idea of an underworld for souls seems to be a Greek concept. Is there evidence that this was held by Old Testament Israel?

Thanks
KT
 
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KevinT

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2 points. The Kingdom is not yet come so the dead have no place to take a new form yet. Second, just becasue someone entered a comma to scripture that had no punctuation, and conveniently placed it to give that impression, it could just as easily have said that 'I tell you today,' .
Thanks for this. I think you are agreeing with my original post.

KT
 
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KevinT

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Ah, agreed. I thought you were referring to soul sleep at first.

In my original post, I mentioned Christian Mortalism. The Wikipedia article mentions that this view is described with the pejorative (negative) term “soul sleep”. I recognize that many denominations do believe in an eternal soul, and that it must therefore remain conscious. I’m not sure why the term “soul sleep“ has taken on the negative connotations it has, however.

Thanks
Kevin
 
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trophy33

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Can you give a source for this? As the book of Acts points out there was disagreement about the state of the dead between the Pharisees and Sadducees. So there was obviously a plurality of views. The idea of an underworld for souls seems to be a Greek concept. Is there evidence that this was held by Old Testament Israel?

Thanks
KT
There is always a plurality of views. Never in history did all people believe the same.

Greek concept - you must take into consideration that the New Testament was written in the era of globalized ideas and concepts. Like John was calling Jesus the Logos (which is a Greek concept), so also Jews adopted the idea that the sheol has different places to be and not everybody ends in the same state.


 
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KevinT

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When you die you don't know the passage of time. So a thousand years would be the same as today to the (dead) thief.

I think paradise means the kingdom of heaven on Earth. This is established after Jesus does a full planetary takeover. We're not there yet.
I agree. It’s almost like with God there is a “time doesn’t matter“ aspect. In other words, whether something takes one day, one year, 1000 years, it doesn’t really matter as long as God‘s will is achieved in the end.

Paul thought he was living in the last days And Jesus in the Bible says “I am coming quickly“. This would seem to be incorrect until we remember that all humanity is always limited to just one lifespan. Each of us have roughly 60-80 years (or less) to exist on this planet before we die. So if the next thing we know of when we are resurrected is an awakening to Christ coming, then the second coming of Christ is always <100 years away. This is kind of a weird concept, but I’m hoping one can understand what I’m trying to get at.

KT
 
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