Did the Thief on the Cross go to Paradise on Crucifixion Friday?

[KevinT]

I think soul sleep is only believed JW (not considered Christian) and SDA.

Luther, iirc, flirted with the idea.

There is an interesting writeup about this on wikipedia: Christian Mortalism. It discusses historical support, including mentioning John Wycliff, William Tyndale, Luther, and even Pope John XXII (temporarily). It discusses that during the first few centuries, mortalism seemed to be the common view. The article then It also gives a list of modern churches that support this, quoted below

Modern Christian groups​

Source.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include Nicky Gumbel,[179] Primitive Baptist Universalists,[citation needed] some Lutherans, the Seventh-day Adventist Church, Advent Christian Church, the Afterlife group,[180] Christadelphians, the Church of God (Seventh Day), Church of God (7th day) – Salem Conference, the Church of God Abrahamic Faith, and various other Church of God organizations and related denominations which adhered to the older teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God, and the Bible Student movement.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach a form of thnetopsychism, in that the soul is the body (Genesis 2:7) and that it dies (Ezekiel 18:20; Ecclesiastes 9:5,10).[181] They believe that 144,000 chosen ones will receive immortality in heaven to rule as kings and priests with Christ in Heaven (Rev 7:4; 14:1,3)[182] but all the other saved will be raised from the dead on the last day (John 5:28,29) to receive eternal life on a Paradise Earth (Revelation 7:9,14,17).[183]

Seventh-day Adventists believe that death is a state of unconscious sleep until the resurrection. They base this belief on biblical texts such as Ecclesiastes 9:5 which states "the dead know nothing", and 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 which contains a description of the dead being raised from the grave at the second coming. These verses, it is argued, indicate that death is only a period or form of slumber.[184]

Thanks
Kevin

 

[KevinT]

I did not say God is looking for clones. The thought experiment with 7 resurrected copies was meant to illustrate that you cannot identify with the resurrected "you", if you ceased to exist before the resurrection. Such person could have your memory and could think he is you, but you would be still dead.

Therefore, our consciousness must be continuous all the time, since our birth. At least logic seems to require it.

Its a very similar problem to the sci-fi transport beams or teleports. If you get disintegrated on one side and reassembled on the other side, there is the same logical problem with it - its your copy, not you. You died when your body was disintegrated. And a fresh new copy was created.

The Ship of Theseus paradox considered exactly what it was that composed a "thing." I think a more basic example is when talking about Abraham Lincoln's axe. "It's just had 2 new handles and 3 new heads." The question is, it is really the same axe?

Now consider our bodies. I agree with your sci-fi transport beam analogy, but since those don't currently exist, I will try to stay with reality. Our human bodies are constantly dying and being recreated. Old cells die, new cells are created. We ingest food, and turn that food into building materials that constitute our bodies. And old parts of our body are turned into waste that goes into the toilet. So if after 10 yrs, 50% of the atoms in our bodies have been replaced, are we the same person? (I'd say, Yes).

It is artificial to draw a line between the body of a person and the memories or the brain of the person. All are composed of the same atoms and molecules. Memories are contained in the synapse connections between our neurons. And all these parts are again part of the great recycling process of food coming in, body being maintained, and waste going into the toilet.

KT

 

[RDKirk]

Many people discuss an “intermediate state”, a status of people after death, but before the resurrection. I have not heard of this referred to as “hell”. I always hear hell as the location of torment of the lost. Can you explain why you would describe Abraham as being in hell?

Thanks for the reply.

KT

There are three words in the original languages of the NT that are commonly translated to English as "hell." One of them is the Aramaic Ghenna that was an actual location in Jesus' time, a valley near Jerusalem where the city's refuse was burned. The fires of Gehenna burned continuously in one or another area of the refuse pit, presenting the state of being continually destroyed for eternity.

The second word in the NT translated as Hell is Hades, which was the then-current Greek concept of a netherworld place for dead spirits to reside for some indeterminate period of time before crossing over into a permanent place, which might be the tranquil Elysian Fields or an even worse place like Tartarus. The Graeco-Roman Christians who read the NT letters and gospels would immediately understand the concept of Hades: A place of indefinite confinement until a later eternal assignation. We could also say Hades means "the grave," such as Lazarus' or even Jesus' spiritual location while their bodies were temporarily in their tombs.

The third word in the NT translated as Hell is Tartarus. It is used only once in scripture in 2 Peter to designate the place that evil spirits--Satan and other demons--will be finally imprisoned for eternity. Tartarus is a word from Greek mythology that designated where the pagan gods themselves would be eternally imprisoned as well as the most evil of mankind. Again, the Graeco-Roman Christians would immediately understand the intended concept: A special place of confinement for evil spirits.

Some modern translations differentiate in English between Hades and Gehenna by translating Hades as "hell" and Gehenna as "hellfire." If you go back through those translations with that distinction in mind, you will see that in context when the term "hellfire" (Gehenna) is used, the contextual meaning is clearly "eternal destruction," but when the term "hell" (Hades) is used the contextual concept is "the grave," or an intermediate stage of undetermined duration.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But did Jesus go to paradise that day (Crucifixion Friday)?

Jesus is God so he was in heaven as he spoke to the thief on the cross because, being God, he is omnipresent.

 

[RDKirk]

Thank you for these links. So what I think I hear you saying is that when Christ told the thief on the cross that they would be together in paradise, that he was saying that they would both be together in the grave, in a state of resting in the garden of “paradise“. Am I reading this right right??

Thanks
KT

I do think that "paradise" as used by Jesus means some portion of the grave (Hades, as the Graeco-Roman Christians would understand it).

It might not be geo-locational in any kind of way comprehensible to our material understanding. It might be a distinct state of spiritual being within the state of being physically dead. It may be a spiritual state of being in which one's spirit is marked for assignation to eternal salvation rather than marked for assignation to eternal destruction.

But when the thief pleaded, "Remember me," I think Jesus' meaning to the thief was: "Where I am going next, you will be with Me." And that's all we really need to understand.

 

[timothyu]

When Jesus said the dead were sleeping i doubt He was referring to their bodies.

 

[RileyG]

There is an interesting writeup about this on wikipedia: Christian Mortalism. It discusses historical support, including mentioning John Wycliff, William Tyndale, Luther, and even Pope John XXII (temporarily). It discusses that during the first few centuries, mortalism seemed to be the common view. The article then It also gives a list of modern churches that support this, quoted below



Thanks
Kevin

Thanks for sharing.

 

[RileyG]

I think this is the most common interpretation of the mentioned creeds. If it is wrong or not, that is hard to judge, without consulting the authors who are not available to us anymore.

Yeah, that’s my understanding too.

 

[RileyG]

When Jesus said the dead were sleeping i doubt He was referring to their bodies.

It’s my understanding he was referring to their bodies. Take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for example. They weren’t unconscious. Or during the transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appeared. Etc

 

[lismore]

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Hello! I don't think that interpretation would have any meaning. They were facing one another, the thief already would know it was today they were speaking. It obviously means what it says, on that day they would be together in Paradise.

God Bless

 

[RileyG]

Hello! I don't think that interpretation would have any meaning. They were facing one another, the thief already would know it was today they were speaking. It obviously means what it says, on that day they would be together in Paradise.

God Bless

Do you mean HEAVEN as we understand it, though?

 

[Paul4JC]

Here is the story of the Thief on the Cross from Luke:



But did Jesus go to paradise that day (Crucifixion Friday)? Didn't He rest, dead in the tomb until Resurrection morning (Sunday morning)?

I am SDA, which teaches Christian Mortalism, and I have always been taught that Christ Himself did not ascend to the Father until after His meeting with Mary on Sunday morning. So how could the thief have accompanied him to paradise that Friday night?

The answer I have been given is that a better translation would be:

Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Apparently the original Greek did not contain commas, and the construction of the text is such that either translation is possible. And yet every translation listed here puts the comma BEFORE the 'today'.

I'll include the portion from the SDA Bible commentary on this passage below.



What do you think, were Jesus and the thief in Paradise on Friday evening?

Best wishes,

Kevin

Yes he did. This was a region in Sheol/Hades, (Paradise or Abraham's bosom) that got moved at the ascension of the Lord Jesus.

8 This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions (Or the depths of the earth)? [Eph 4:8-9 NIV]

 

[KevinT]

It’s my understanding he was referring to their bodies. Take the parable of the rich man and Lazarus for example. They weren’t unconscious. Or during the transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appeared. Etc

There are three people that are mentioned as being taken to heaven:

1. Enoch. (Ge 5:24)
2. Moses. (Jude 1:9)
3. Elijah. (2 Kings 2)

So these have to be to be considered differently than everyone else.

KT

 

[KevinT]

Hello! I don't think that interpretation would have any meaning. They were facing one another, the thief already would know it was today they were speaking. It obviously means what it says, on that day they would be together in Paradise.

God Bless

Yes, but Jesus didn't go to Paradise (heaven) that day. Others have posted that Paradise is a special part of the grave/hell, but I haven't seen any Biblical support for that.

KT

 

[KevinT]

Yes he did. This was a region in Sheol/Hades, (Paradise or Abraham's bosom) that got moved at the ascension of the Lord Jesus.

8 This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions (Or the depths of the earth)? [Eph 4:8-9 NIV]

So you understand this to mean that Jesus went down to hell, the "lower earthy regions"? I would interpret this to mean that he was up in heaven, and descended to earth itself.

Honestly, I have been a bit confused about the Abraham's bosom issues. I have never heard this portrayed like this before I wrote this thread. Several others have mentioned it as well. Here is the verses about Abraham's bosom:

Luke 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side [bosom]. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

First of all, I think this was an parable Jesus told to make a point about the real Lazarus that was soon to be raised. But regardless, Lazarus is portrayed to be in Hades, and he looks UP (i.e. heavenward) and sees Abraham. It doesn't say that Abraham was also in Hades; that is the point of the story. Lazarus is in a place that Abraham is NOT. How do we go from this parable to having Hades/Sheol having different compartments -- one of which apparently houses Abraham and his ample bosom?

I just found this article in Wikipedia about the Bosom of Abraham, which mentions that this idea was first found in Jewish papyri in the 2nd temple period. But it wasn't put into OT scripture.

But how can one justify calling paradise to be a part of hell?? Paul wrote:

2 Cor 12:1-5 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses

Am I to understand that Paul was caught up to a particular zone in hell? That makes no sense to me.

Kevin

 

[RileyG]

There are three people that are mentioned as being taken to heaven:

1. Enoch. (Ge 5:24)
2. Moses. (Jude 1:9)
3. Elijah. (2 Kings 2)

So these have to be to be considered differently than everyone else.

KT

IIRC Jude 1:9 refers to a non-canonical book or a lost book of the Bible. I could be mistaken, though.

the Bible makes clear Moses was buried.

 

[timothyu]

Or during the transfiguration when Moses and Elijah appeared.

Appeared as what?

 

[Guojing]

Many people discuss an “intermediate state”, a status of people after death, but before the resurrection. I have not heard of this referred to as “hell”. I always hear hell as the location of torment of the lost. Can you explain why you would describe Abraham as being in hell?

Thanks for the reply.

KT

It was hinted when Jesus talk about rich young man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31).

Its a special place but no worries, they are resting there and not being tormented.

 

[trophy33]

The Ship of Theseus paradox considered exactly what it was that composed a "thing." I think a more basic example is when talking about Abraham Lincoln's axe. "It's just had 2 new handles and 3 new heads." The question is, it is really the same axe?

Now consider our bodies. I agree with your sci-fi transport beam analogy, but since those don't currently exist, I will try to stay with reality. Our human bodies are constantly dying and being recreated. Old cells die, new cells are created. We ingest food, and turn that food into building materials that constitute our bodies. And old parts of our body are turned into waste that goes into the toilet. So if after 10 yrs, 50% of the atoms in our bodies have been replaced, are we the same person? (I'd say, Yes).

It is artificial to draw a line between the body of a person and the memories or the brain of the person. All are composed of the same atoms and molecules. Memories are contained in the synapse connections between our neurons. And all these parts are again part of the great recycling process of food coming in, body being maintained, and waste going into the toilet.

KT

My point is not that we need our body to be the same. My point is that our consciousness must still continuously exist or else its not you anymore but a different person with the same form. It would also make no sense to reward or punish this new person for what you did, just because he has your form and your memories.

 

[Guojing]

Yes he did. This was a region in Sheol/Hades, (Paradise or Abraham's bosom) that got moved at the ascension of the Lord Jesus.

8 This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions (Or the depths of the earth)? [Eph 4:8-9 NIV]

People like to use this single verse to form their doctrine that Paradise is in heaven now.

It does not say anything even close to that. Those OT saints in Paradise were not even captives in the first place.