Did the Founding Fathers get anything Wrong?

[Occams Barber]

Is that a Jeanne Dixon prophecy?

No crystal balls required.

PEW published the data in 2022- here's the report:
Modeling the Future of Religion in America

The steady reduction in US Christians is entirely consistent with what has been happening in the rest of the Western world. It's just taken the US a little longer to start to catch up. While Christian numbers are dropping, the 'No Religion' or 'None' group is increasing fairly dramatically.

What we're seeing is a rising indifference to things Christian.

OB

 

[Bradskii]

When I first read the Pew report I thought it was a bit generous to the future of religion in the US. For some reason they think that scenarios where believers end their identification with their old religion will just stop are some how plausible, especially given that the large size of the "None" category is largely driven by deconversion.

I think it'll mainly be driven by the offspring of religious people who are brought up in a secular world and decide to answer 'None' to the question of religion. Although they may still adhere to some of what they were taught.

I don't know what proportion of people are cultural Catholics or cultural Jews who might swell the numbers initially but then decide to bail out. It was quite a few years after I gave up religion before I put 'Atheist' in the required box. It was 'C of E' (Church of England) for quite some time. My wife took a lot longer and she was rarely in church (I was hardly out of it on a Sunday). 'But it was how I was brought up' was the usual excuse.

 

[Occams Barber]

I think it'll mainly be driven by the offspring of religious people who are brought up in a secular world and decide to answer 'None' to the question of religion. Although they may still adhere to some of what they were taught.

I don't know what proportion of people are cultural Catholics or cultural Jews who might swell the numbers initially but then decide to bail out. It was quite a few years after I gave up religion before I put 'Atheist' in the required box. It was 'C of E' (Church of England) for quite some time. My wife took a lot longer and she was rarely in church (I was hardly out of it on a Sunday). 'But it was how I was brought up' was the usual excuse.

My religious upbringing started - and ended - at my CofE infant baptism. It wasn't until my teenage years that I even thought about religion and decided I couldn't see the point.

In spite of this, like you, I still ticked the CofE box in my first few Census returns. CofE was never a belief, but it was a kind of 'brand'. I automatically identified as an Anglican in spite of my lack of belief.

I eventually woke up after 'No Religion' was included as an option in the early seventies.

OB

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think it'll mainly be driven by the offspring of religious people who are brought up in a secular world and decide to answer 'None' to the question of religion. Although they may still adhere to some of what they were taught.

I would include those as "deconversions". My point being that the major growth in "No religion" respondants to such questions comes from those raised with religion, many of which (like you and I) made that transition in adulthood.

I don't know what proportion of people are cultural Catholics or cultural Jews who might swell the numbers initially but then decide to bail out. It was quite a few years after I gave up religion before I put 'Atheist' in the required box. It was 'C of E' (Church of England) for quite some time. My wife took a lot longer and she was rarely in church (I was hardly out of it on a Sunday). 'But it was how I was brought up' was the usual excuse.

I went from being IDed as "Catholic" to "Atheist" in a minute or so, but that's only because I went a few years without belief or participation and still would have answered such questions as "Catholic" though lapsed. Fortunately, I cannot be legally required to answer that question.

 

[Bradskii]

My religious upbringing started - and ended - at my CofE infant baptism.

Mine ended at my confirmation classes. I hadn't realised up until then that people actually believed everything to the extent that they did. I'd just been paying it lip service up until then.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Mine ended at my confirmation classes. I hadn't realised up until then that people actually believed everything to the extent that they did. I'd just been paying it lip service up until then.

You guys are making me feel bad. I actually believed that stuff into adulthood. Then I didn't.

 

[Occams Barber]

You guys are making me feel bad. I actually believed that stuff into adulthood. Then I didn't.

On the other hand, having been a believer you probably understand the mindset of believers far better than I do. While I understand the generic reasons for religious belief, I have real trouble understanding how obviously rational individuals become believers.

OB

 

[Hans Blaster]

On the other hand, having been a believer you probably understand the mindset of believers far better than I do. While I understand the generic reasons for religious belief, I have real trouble understanding how obviously rational individuals become believers.

OB

I'm not sure I understand it either. I just believed what my parents told me about it and others who seemed to believe it as well, so I didn't think to challenge it. I lacked any "spiritual" experiences that might justify belief. I never studied the bible or theology that might serve to convince someone of it. Church and religion were boring and I just didn't care about them, yet I thought they were real and I had certain obligations related to them. Someday I will get to wasting as much time on CF as I wasted in church, but that is a while off.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm not sure I understand it either. I just believed what my parents told me about it and others who seemed to believe it as well, so I didn't think to challenge it. I lacked any "spiritual" experiences that might justify belief. I never studied the bible or theology that might serve to convince someone of it. Church and religion were boring and I just didn't care about them, yet I thought they were real and I had certain obligations related to them. Someday I will get to wasting as much time on CF as I wasted in church, but that is a while off.

We should start a thread. 'Why did you decide to become a Christian?' Or maybe that should be 'when?'

 

[Valletta]

It seems there is a faction of people who hold the Founding Fathers up to be almost gods (but certainly some kind of divine representative). So much so that they figure a 240ish yr old legal document is as applicable in today's culture as in one from that long ago.


I'm curious, is there anything you think that Founding Fathers really should have thought a bit harder on. So I'm thinking problems that they REALLY should have been able to foresee and not empowered.

For example (and I am NOT a historian so please feel free to eviscerate and enlighten me)....I don't understand how a judge appointed by a president would be permitted to try that same president in their court room. How is it that this did not have some kind of stop gap measure?

Thoughts? Other examples? Keeping in mind it I'm looking MOSTLY for examples that are not explicitly from our times but are problems that could have arisen back then (ie..nothing about AI...that kinda thing)

What was right as a framework for our country, as per the Constitution, was the three separate branches of government. They reckoned that something was needed to keep the bureaucracy in check. In hindsight requirements for government transparency and term limits, including those for appointed heads of agencies, would have been beneficial.

 

[Pommer]

What was right as a framework for our country, as per the Constitution, was the three separate branches of government. They reckoned that something was needed to keep the bureaucracy in check.

What “bureaucracy” existed in 1789?

In hindsight requirements for government transparency and term limits, including those for appointed heads of agencies, would have been beneficial.

“Term limits” don’t exist for government jobs…why force people who’ve proved effective, efficient and competent for the sake of “turnover is good!” thinking.
If they’re lousy at the jobs that they do, then there are other methods to get rid of them.

 

[Hans Blaster]

We should start a thread. 'Why did you decide to become a Christian?' Or maybe that should be 'when?'

I didn't decide (and this isn't that "free will" thing), my parents decided for me before I was even aware what it was to be Christian.

 

[Bradskii]

I didn't decide (and this isn't that "free will" thing), my parents decided for me before I was even aware what it was to be Christian.

Yeah, I guess that's right for almost all religious people. Certainly true in my case as well.