Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

[jgr]

Well let us look at your assertion for a moment of Colossians 1:23

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1. If we are to take Paul at face value in English- then the gospel was preached to every created thing (creature) under heaven!
That means every ant, flea, fly etc. Odds of that? 0%

The word creature is ktisis and created things is the secondary definition.
The primary definition is the act of creating- and that is nonsensical that believers are preaching to pottery being made or whatever.

So the first two definitions of creature just cannot fit the bill of what Paul is saying!

But wait! There is a tertiary definition. And that is ordinance or institution!

now how about under heaven? well there are four english phrases and one of them is used as much as under heaven is "of heaven".

So now let us see which makes sense from Greek to English as which is more probable.

Paul saying that the gospel was preached to every created thing under heaven- human, plants and animals?

or did Paul say that teh gospel was preached to every institution "of" heaven, which means that the gospel has been preached to Israel, families and governments? Which Jesus said in the gospels that the gospel would go out to?

I will take Paul's word as it is in the original and not a 21st century misunderstanding of what Paul was saying. We all should look past simple English when it appears it is in conflict with what was possible to accomplishing how we understand English. We should be students of the original languages to gain better understanding of passages just like this!

Well off to my sons wedding. Will respond again Monday PM.

Colossians 1:23 excerpt from the Greek:

ἐν πάσῃ κτίσει τῇ ὑπὸ τὸν οὐρανόν
"...in all creation under heaven..."

2937 [e]
ktisei
κτίσει
creation
N-DFS

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon in 2937 above:

ἐν πάσῃ (Rec. adds τῇ) κτίσει τῇ ὑπό τόν οὐρανοῦ, among men of every race, Colossians 1:23

Notably excluding ants, fleas, flies, ordinances, and institutions.

Also some advice: Overuse of the exclamation key can cause its premature failure.

 

[nolidad]

Maybe not doctors - but abortion is certainly not a new invention nor something specifically carried out by doctors (but that's a whole 'nother story).

But you're again assigning your own reasons for how/why the text reads as it does. Why is there a separate standard applied?

Well Israel considered a person at teh moment of conception as do most Christians. so abortion was murder to them. It doesn't specifically say that but pronounces a murder charge for anyone who kills a baby in the womb.

I don't know why but thse last posts did not make it to my alert site, so I missed them.

 

[nolidad]

It seems to me that priests were instructed to cause miscarriages, though (based on this passage) if a man suspected his wife was unfaithful:

No it was God who caused the miscarriage and that is his business! There is nothing medical about drinking water with some dirt on the floor and being unfaithful that will cause a woman to have a miscarriage. this was inthe hands of the Lord!

 

[nolidad]

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon in 2937 above:

ἐν πάσῃ (Rec. adds τῇ) κτίσει τῇ ὑπό τόν οὐρανοῦ, among men of every race, Colossians 1:23

Notably excluding ants, fleas, flies, ordinances, and institutions.

Also some advice: Overuse of the exclamation key can cause its premature failure.

Thayer makes that but it is an implication and not supported by other lexicons and other Greek?English translations.

but even this is not held up historically. the far east, the celts the southern african nations had not had time to have the gospel sent to it as of that point in time! Not even all teh roman Empire had the gospel as of Colossians 1.

 

[mkgal1]

Well Israel considered a person at teh moment of conception as do most Christians. so abortion was murder to them.

Not according to the passages that Parousia70 already shared. Breath constituted life. See post #1219.

No it was God who caused the miscarriage and that is his business! There is nothing medical about drinking water with some dirt on the floor and being unfaithful that will cause a woman to have a miscarriage. this was inthe hands of the Lord!

Then why was a priest even involved? If the abortion were all God's doing - then certainly He didn't need husbands to go through the trouble of dragging their wives to a priest (who knows what was truly in that tincture).

Abortion: the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy. ~ Dictionary.com

BTW - it's interesting to me that - in this context - you chose to use the word "miscarriage" instead of "abortion". Technically - this was describing an abortion - NOT a miscarriage (but, again, that's all off topic - so we shouldn't continue this side topic).

But.....we're getting derailed on a side issue. The original point was that you are expecting things to be spelled out exactly in a specific way and refuse to see God's words that are clearly written ALL THROUGHOUT the OT and New that God NEVER desired there to be ANY discrimination or preferences between His worshipers. He desired for ALL to hear - and ALL to be able to come to Him.....EQUALLY.

 

[jgr]

Thayer makes that but it is an implication

Is your Greek superior to Thayer's?

and not supported by other lexicons and other Greek?English translations.

Which ones? Direct quotes, please.

but even this is not held up historically. the far east, the celts the southern african nations had not had time to have the gospel sent to it as of that point in time! Not even all teh roman Empire had the gospel as of Colossians 1.

Evidence? Direct quotes, please.

"...among men of every race" says nothing about where the gospel was sent, but rather who heard it. Where it was heard was immaterial. Travelers from a given nation who heard it in any other nation still qualify as "men of every race""in all creation under heaven".

The credibility choice:

1. Paul
2. nolidad

Easy decision.

 

[nolidad]

What scripture is that?
Surely You don't mean Exodus 21:22-25 do you?
For that scripture says the opposite. That scripture says that if the woman suffers a miscarriage but the woman is otherwise unharmed (no mischief follow), then the offender must simply pay her husband a fine for the loss of their "property"(the Fetus), if the woman dies,(mischief follows) then it's a murder charge.

You need to bone up on Hebrew Grammar and no a modern liberal interpretation.

the mischief refers to the nearest antecedant and that is the child. Also the Mosaic Law already had a written penalty for nayone harming another person (including women ) or that death follows the harm. Why would they need another one? No this is to cover the unborn child!

So, If you Take Paul's word as it is in the original, and admonish me not to apply a broader, secondary meaning not found in the original, I take it you also do not ascribe a broader meaning to Jesus' purposeful use of "oikoumené" than the original allows for?

Jesus, in the original Language Said:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the [Roman Empire] world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Surely you agree that we have no scriptural instruction, nor etymological rule, instructing us to broaden the specific, narrow meaning of oikoumené that Jesus' purposefully used, into the "Whole Globe" or "Entire Planet", or anywhere outside the Roman Empire's boundaries in the 1st century for that matter, correct?

First the tertiary meaning I showed you of Colossians 1:23 is found in the original languages and in many writings!

Now to Jesus eschatological statement in Matthew.

I am glad you did like the JW's do and insert words not in the original in paragraphs showing it is your opinion.

Well the gospel has been preached to all the Roman Empire of Jesus day (that is an acceptable translation if context warrants it), but the end has not come. So we must conclude (unless you believe Jesus could be mistaken) that He had a different focus than just the empire when He spoke this of the last days.

Also, God said He could raise up Children of Abraham for a pile of Rocks.
Should we then infer that Life begins with Rocks and therefore no rocks should be harmed because of their potential to become Children of Abraham?

If you cannot recognize an allegorical twist of phrase- this thread is not the place to help you with that problem.

Conversely, the notion that "Breath = Life" is used throughout scripture. The bible declares that God breathed life into man's body (Genesis 2:7). At least a dozen more verses indicate that breath is synonymous with life. Before 1st breath, there is no life, after last breath, again, no life... that seems to make a powerful case as well.

Well if you wish to use that verse to justify those who murder the unborn- we will see who is right before His throne!

But as for me I take god that He was intimate with Jeremiah before he was even conceived and that Paul was called to preach the gospel from His mothers womb!

 

[mkgal1]

Thayer makes that but it is an implication and not supported by other lexicons and other Greek?English translations.

Do you find somewhere in Scripture where the Gospel was to be preached to fleas; lizards; and other creatures? Because that's another method of interpretation available - allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture.

 

[mkgal1]

You need to bone up on Hebrew Grammar and no a modern liberal interpretation.

May I ask of you to please post without ad hominem remarks like this? Discussion is so much more enjoyable (and genuine & honorable) when statements are made and then supporting information is given. We're all learning. I'm fairly certain that NONE of us have it ALL figured out.

 

[nolidad]

It seems to me that priests were instructed to cause miscarriages, though (based on this passage) if a man suspected his wife was unfaithful:

Is your Greek superior to Thayer's?

Well only thayer implies that. No other lexicon does. It is not the translation of that phrase but a paraphrase. There is no other example of that word being translated as Thayer does.

Which ones? Direct quotes, please.

go to bible hub and you will see

Evidence? Direct quotes, please.

"...among men of every race" says nothing about where the gospel was sent, but rather who heard it. Where it was heard was immaterial. Travelers from a given nation who heard it in any other nation still qualify as "men of every race""in all creation under heaven".

The credibility choice:

1. Paul
2. nolidad

Easy decision.

Actually it is the opinion of Thayer, verses sound exegetical translations by many many others.

I will give you that it is remotely possible that people from every people group (if they traveled to Rome)
could have heard the gospel, but Rome had no dealings with India, China, Japan, The modern russian nations NOrth and South American people groups etc.etc.etc.

Once again that the Gospel was preached to every institution of heaven(which is a usage that is justified in other writings using this phrase in greek) just makes more sense in light of teh limitations of the day! Unless you have a Mormon bent and believe that about 6 B.C. Jews were able to build boats that there is no evidence of and crossed the Atlantic and settled the New World and that Jesus when He ascended into heaven took a hard right and preached to the Americas.

 

[mkgal1]

the mischief refers to the nearest antecedant and that is the child. Also the Mosaic Law already had a written penalty for nayone harming another person (including women ) or that death follows the harm. Why would they need another one? No this is to cover the unborn child!

This post makes me think of a certain experiment about how our minds work. Are you familiar with this? Count how many times the ball is passed from one team white member to the next white team member - then let me know your answer. Pay close attention and *don't* get distracted!:

 

[jgr]

Well only thayer implies that. No other lexicon does. It is not the translation of that phrase but a paraphrase. There is no other example of that word being translated as Thayer does.

There is no other example, because no other source disagrees with Thayer. If his rendering was inaccurate, there should be credible relevant commentary thereto somewhere.

There is none.

Actually it is the opinion of Thayer, verses sound exegetical translations by many many others.

"Many many others" that you're unable to produce?

 

[mkgal1]

Actually it is the opinion of Thayer, verses sound exegetical translations by many many others.

And this is YOUR opinion. So......where does that leave us? I'll believe St. Paul (of whom the Thayer's lexicon supports).

 

[nolidad]

Do you find somewhere in Scripture where the Gospel was to be preached to fleas; lizards; and other creatures? Because that's another method of interpretation - letting Scripture interpret Scripture.

You won't find that because that is not the translation of the passage.

The word Creature is:

κτίσις
Transliteration
ktisis
Pronunciation
ktē'-sēs κτίζω (G2936)

mGNT
19x in 3 unique form(s) TR
19x in 3 unique form(s) LXX
0x in 0 unique form(s)
κτίσει — 4x
κτίσεως — 8x
κτίσις — 7x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: creature (11x), creation (6x), building (1x), ordinance (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
   
   
   1. the act of creating, creation
      
      
   2. creation i.e. thing created
      
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
         
         1. anything created
            
            
         2. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
            
            
         3. the sum or aggregate of things created
            
   3. institution, ordinance

These are the ways the word ktisis is translated. I inserted flowers and bugs just simply because they are created things (no I do not believe that is what is called for)

BUT if you believe that the gospel was preached to every creature- you have to believe it means bugs and plants etc. for that is the usage for #2

And yes for symbols and parables Scripture does interpret itself- but to go from Greek to English we need expositories, and dictionaries and grammar guides!

 

[nolidad]

And this is YOUR opinion. So......where does that leave us? I'll believe St. Paul (of whom the Thayer's lexicon supports).

That is your choice. But I showed you just one other and it does not support the phrase "every race of man" as a legitimate translation. And bible Hub shows many other greek experts.

BTW You are believing Thayers opinion and not Pauls or mine!

 

[jgr]

You won't find that because that is not the translation of the passage.

The word Creature is:

κτίσις
Transliteration
ktisis
Pronunciation
ktē'-sēs κτίζω (G2936)

mGNT
19x in 3 unique form(s) TR
19x in 3 unique form(s) LXX
0x in 0 unique form(s)
κτίσει — 4x
κτίσεως — 8x
κτίσις — 7x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: creature (11x), creation (6x), building (1x), ordinance (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
   1. the act of creating, creation
      
      
   2. creation i.e. thing created
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
         1. anything created
            
            
         2. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
            
            
         3. the sum or aggregate of things created
   3. institution, ordinance

These are the ways the word ktisis is translated. I inserted flowers and bugs just simply because they are created things (no I do not believe that is what is called for)

BUT if you believe that the gospel was preached to every creature- you have to believe it means bugs and plants etc. for that is the usage for #2

And yes for symbols and parables Scripture does interpret itself- but to go from Greek to English we need expositories, and dictionaries and grammar guides!

Which of those definitions applies to Colossians 1:23?

And you still haven't told us how your Greek is superior to Thayer's.

 

[nolidad]

There is no other example, because no other source disagrees with Thayer. If his rendering was inaccurate, there should be credible relevant commentary thereto somewhere.

There is none.

Colossians 1:23 Multilingual: if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Click all the links and see for yourself!

 

[nolidad]

Which of those definitions applies to Colossians 1:23?

And you still haven't told us how your Greek is superior to Thayer's.

Well I don't have "my greek" so that is an irrelavent question. I just use lexicons, expositories and etymologies of words and draw conclusions.

Thayers use of all races of men- is an opinion of the phrase and not a translation. If you believe Him correct- defend it! I have shown you how other experts TRANSLATE the word and not opine on it!

 

[mkgal1]

So the first two definitions of creature just cannot fit the bill of what Paul is saying!

But wait! There is a tertiary definition. And that is ordinance or institution!

This explanation isn't even included in your preferred lexicon. IOW - it's based on YOUR reasoning - your opinion. I'll still remain with St Paul.

 

[mkgal1]

I just use lexicons, expositories and etymologies of words and draw conclusions.

It seems, first, beginning from a biased narrative and seeing what fits within that boundary.