Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

[nolidad]

We've been asking you for verses showing where God gave instruction for the division wall between Jew and Gentile. I haven't seen where He ever did.

And I told you there is not! The wall was not built until Herod built it.
Prior to Herod building it, it was the plaza surrounding the temple. The only wall in question is the wall seperating women from the men. Prior to near the time of Christ, it was called the inner court and outer court. Then it was called the court of the Jews and the court of women!

Same division in the synagogues system. Jesus visited synagogues and the temple numerous times! show me one place in either the OT or NT where God called the separation misogynist or racist and you win!

Women and Gentiles could only enter the inner court to present their sacrifice. They could not stay afterwards! God is mute on this practice.

Well I am off to my sons wedding. I won't be available till Monday PM.

 

[parousia70]

Well we know it had not reached the Celts, the Benelux nations, nor India nor china, nor what was to become Russia! In this case, the words whole world is in reference to the Empire of Rome! Context and history verify that!



Well I can tell you about teh hope of the rapture and resurrection in all generations, but that was not doctrine but desire.

Teh role of women is a didaskilos Paul instructed for all churches. He even said to those who are contentious about it- there is no other teaching in the church!

Yes Paul thought it could happen in his life, but was not authoritative about it. ! Thess. 4:15-17 is a simple statement and not a doctrinal declaration showing the order in the rapture. Also if the Apostles did really think the end of the world would absolutely occur in their lifetime- they certainly were teaching like it wasn't they were more involved in establishing doctrine and order int he churches instead of running around saying Jesus is coming any minute now!

Thanks for proving my point.
The inspired apostle Paul infallibly declared that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven by the mid-60s AD. Random, fallible 21st-century Internet guy Nolidad says ”No, Paul was wrong, that did not happen”

When faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite statements is true and correct, my money is on the apostle, every time.

And do you pick and choose what you wish to follow of Pauls declarative teachings?

Well, It’s clear now that you do.
Perhaps you posses the sole exception to your own rule?

That’s usually how it goes around here... there sure is a lot of “Do as I say, not as I do” on this board...

 

[nolidad]

Thanks for proving my point.
The inspired apostle Paul infallibly declared that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven by the mid-60s AD. Random, fallible 21st-century Internet guy Nolidad says ”No, Paul was wrong, that did not happen”

When faced with choosing which of these two polar opposite statements is true and correct, my money is on the apostle, every time.

Well let us look at your assertion for a moment of Colossians 1:23

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1. If we are to take Paul at face value in English- then the gospel was preached to every created thing (creature) under heaven!
That means every ant, flea, fly etc. Odds of that? 0%

The word creature is ktisis and created things is the secondary definition.
The primary definition is the act of creating- and that is nonsensical that believers are preaching to pottery being made or whatever.

So the first two definitions of creature just cannot fit the bill of what Paul is saying!

But wait! There is a tertiary definition. And that is ordinance or institution!

now how about under heaven? well there are four english phrases and one of them is used as much as under heaven is "of heaven".

So now let us see which makes sense from Greek to English as which is more probable.

Paul saying that the gospel was preached to every created thing under heaven- human, plants and animals?

or did Paul say that teh gospel was preached to every institution "of" heaven, which means that the gospel has been preached to Israel, families and governments? Which Jesus said in the gospels that the gospel would go out to?

I will take Paul's word as it is in the original and not a 21st century misunderstanding of what Paul was saying. We all should look past simple English when it appears it is in conflict with what was possible to accomplishing how we understand English. We should be students of the original languages to gain better understanding of passages just like this!

Well off to my sons wedding. Will respond again Monday PM.

 

[mkgal1]

Then why did God give those specific instructions in how to build the temple?

We've been asking you for verses showing where God gave instruction for the division wall between Jew and Gentile. I haven't seen where He ever did.

And I told you there is none! The wall was not built until Herod built it.
Prior to Herod building it, it was the plaza surrounding the temple. The only wall in question is the wall seperating women from the men. Prior to near the time of Christ, it was called the inner court and outer court. Then it was called the court of the Jews and the court of women!

Same division in the synagogues system. Jesus visited synagogues and the temple numerous times! show me one place in either the OT or NT where God called the separation misogynist or racist and you win!

Women and Gentiles could only enter the inner court to present their sacrifice. They could not stay afterwards! God is mute on this practice.

Well I am off to my sons wedding. I won't be available till Monday PM.

Have you never considered that it wasn't God that wanted that division (since there is no support that He ever gave instruction to have the division, as you've admitted) - especially after reading all these passages that speak about unity of those that had "no other God but God" and sojourned with the Israelites and observed His feasts in the OT?

 

[mkgal1]

show me one place in either the OT or NT where God called the separation misogynist or racist and you win!

Well....I'm not to interested in "winning" as I am remaining true to Scripture.

Jesus seemed to have "spoken" more in deeds than words. ISTM that the best example I can think of as His demonstration of having desired equality for ALL to come and draw near to Him was His encounter with the SAMARITAN WOMAN ( a person hit at least twice by being identified as the groups that were typically marginalized in the first century Jerusalem era). Going by YOUR rules.....you'd have this person walled off from worshiping God - but Jesus sought her out (literally going out of His way) to be face-to-face with her.

 

[nolidad]

Have you never considered that it wasn't God that wanted that division (since there is no support that He ever gave instruction to have the division, as you've admitted) - especially after reading all these passages that speak about unity of those that had "no other God but God" and sojourned with the Israelites and observed His feasts in the OT?

• Well there was a thousand years that God and the prophets and Jesus had an opportunity to say that division in temple worship was not of HIm-= and in 1,000 years we have not one complaint about that! We have loads of complaints about hearts being far from him, turning the temple to a den of thieves, etc.etc but not a peep about teh court of teh Jews, the court of teh women and then later the Court of the Gentiles! Which prior to Herod building that outer wall- was simply outside the temple proper.

 

[nolidad]

Well....I'm not to interested in "winning" as I am remaining true to Scripture.

Jesus seemed to have "spoken" more in deeds than words. ISTM that the best example I can think of as His demonstration of having desired equality for ALL to come and draw near to Him was His encounter with the SAMARITAN WOMAN ( a person hit at least twice by being identified as the groups that were typically marginalized in the first century Jerusalem era). Going by YOUR rules.....you'd have this person walled off from worshiping God - but Jesus sought her out (literally going out of His way) to be face-to-face with her.

And I agree 100% that Jesus was bringing in a new way to enter worship! Where Jew, woman and Gentile could all equally worship god and without any building at all!

But that does not mean until the church was born that God had the divisions in place in the physical temple and never said boo about it. This is what stays true to Scripture!

 

[parousia70]

Well there was a thousand years that God and the prophets and Jesus had an opportunity to say that division in temple worship was not of HIm-= and in 1,000 years we have not one complaint about that! We have loads of complaints about hearts being far from him, turning the temple to a den of thieves, etc.etc but not a peep about teh court of teh Jews, the court of teh women and then later the Court of the Gentiles!

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...

They also had ample opportunity to denounce abortion but we can find not one peep or complaint about it in scripture....

Does that likewise mean God isn't against it?

Or is this reasoning you've laid out not meant to be applied consistently across all topics?

 

[nolidad]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning...

They also had ample opportunity to denounce abortion but we can find not one peep or complaint about it in scripture....

Well mostly because doctors in Israel did not practice abortion- but we do have a murder charge against anyone who punches a pregnant woman and causes her baby to die!

Also given the fact that God said to a prophet that before He was even formed He was known by God- makes a poweful case that life begins at conception and was known by God before conception.

 

[mkgal1]

• Well there was a thousand years that God and the prophets and Jesus had an opportunity to say that division in temple worship was not of HIm-= and in 1,000 years we have not one complaint about that! We have loads of complaints about hearts being far from him, turning the temple to a den of thieves, etc.etc but not a peep about teh court of teh Jews, the court of teh women and then later the Court of the Gentiles! Which prior to Herod building that outer wall- was simply outside the temple proper.

God is recorded as saying these things (and you admitted that you have NO SUPPORT - other than the fact it was there - for positing that God ever gave instruction for a division between Gentile worshipers and Jewish worshipers):

Isaiah 56 ~
Salvation for Foreigners
This is what the LORD says:
“Maintain justice and do what is right,
for My salvation is coming soon,
and My righteousness will be revealed.
Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,
“I am but a dry tree.”
For this is what the LORD says:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases Me
and hold fast to My covenant—
I will give them, in My house and within My walls,
a memorial and a name
better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name
that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD
to minister to Him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to be His servants—
all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it
and who hold fast to My covenant—
I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.
I will accept their entirely burned offerings and sacrifices on
my altar.​

My house will be known as a house of prayer for all peoples.

​

Deuteronomy 16:11-Rejoice before Yahweh your God in the place where He chooses to have His name dwell--you, your son and daughter, your male and female slave, the Levite within your gates, as well as the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow among you. V 19-20 ~ Do not deny justice or show partiality to anyone. Do not accept a bribe, for it blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. Pursue justice and justice alone, so that you will live and possess the land the LORD your God is giving you."​

Jesus spoke with actions. He tore down that wall of hostility - and eventually the entire literal Temple - (and He approached a Samaritan woman face to face).

People see and pay attention to what they wish to see, is my belief.

 

[mkgal1]

God had the divisions in place in the physical temple

A Brood of vipers had those divisions in place - not God.

See Luke 11:37–54, Matthew 23:1–39, Mark 12:35–40 and Luke 20:45–47.

 

[nolidad]

Those brood of vipers were not existing at the time of Solomons temple! No in the start of teh 2nd temple . They did not become that brood until around 10AD or so! So why did God remain silent on this one issue you are so hot about? He spoke of so many other wrongs- did He just forget????

 

[mkgal1]

Well mostly because doctors in Israel did not practice abortion

Maybe not doctors - but abortion is certainly not a new invention nor something specifically carried out by doctors (but that's a whole 'nother story).

But you're again assigning your own reasons for how/why the text reads as it does. Why is there a separate standard applied?

 

[mkgal1]

So why did God remain silent on this one issue you are so hot about? He spoke of so many other wrongs- did He just forget????

For some strange reason - you perceive Him to be "silent on this issue" - but for me - I see injustice and partiality mentioned all the way back to Genesis. I've shared quite a few passages on partiality and injustice that you have ignored (you seem to be overlooking what He said - or WORSE - giving God's stamp of approval on it when He specifically spoke out against it....just not using words that you expect or will accept).

 

[nolidad]

God is recorded as saying these things (and you admitted that you have NO SUPPORT - other than the fact it was there - for positing that God ever gave instruction for a division between Gentile worshipers and Jewish worshipers):

Isaiah 56:7 ~ I will bring them to my holy mountain,
and bring them joy in my house of prayer.
I will accept their entirely burned offerings and sacrifices on my altar.
and bring them joy in my house of prayer.
I will accept their entirely burned offerings and sacrifices on my altar.
My house will be known as a house of prayer for all peoples.

Deuteronomy 16:11-Rejoice before Yahweh your God in the place where He chooses to have His name dwell--you, your son and daughter, your male and female slave, the Levite within your gates, as well as the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow among you. V 19-20 ~ Do not deny justice or show partiality to anyone. Do not accept a bribe, for it blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous. Pursue justice and justice alone, so that you will live and possess the land the LORD your God is giving you."

All those are true- but not one of those said women could enter the inner court of gentiles could go past the outer court for worship!

The millenial temple will fulfill the promise his house will be a house of prayer!

 

[mkgal1]

All those are true- but not one of those said women could enter the inner court of gentiles could go past the outer court for worship!

Most people would realize that "do not deny justice or show partiality to anyone" would translate to NOT having separations of any kind between His worshipers. That's being partial. It's legalism that believes in loopholes.

 

[mkgal1]

The millenial temple will fulfill the promise his house will be a house of prayer!

There's no such thing.

He fulfilled His eternal Temple when the New Covenant was brought in. He is the cornerstone of that Temple (and we, as believers, are the other stones).

Written to the Gentiles in first century Ephesus:

Ephesians 2:19-22, "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the Chief Cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows.​

 

[parousia70]

Well let us look at your assertion for a moment of Colossians 1:23

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1. If we are to take Paul at face value in English- then the gospel was preached to every created thing (creature) under heaven!
That means every ant, flea, fly etc. Odds of that? 0%

The word creature is ktisis and created things is the secondary definition.
The primary definition is the act of creating- and that is nonsensical that believers are preaching to pottery being made or whatever.

So the first two definitions of creature just cannot fit the bill of what Paul is saying!

But wait! There is a tertiary definition. And that is ordinance or institution!

now how about under heaven? well there are four english phrases and one of them is used as much as under heaven is "of heaven".

So now let us see which makes sense from Greek to English as which is more probable.

Paul saying that the gospel was preached to every created thing under heaven- human, plants and animals?

or did Paul say that teh gospel was preached to every institution "of" heaven, which means that the gospel has been preached to Israel, families and governments? Which Jesus said in the gospels that the gospel would go out to?

I will take Paul's word as it is in the original and not a 21st century misunderstanding of what Paul was saying. We all should look past simple English when it appears it is in conflict with what was possible to accomplishing how we understand English. We should be students of the original languages to gain better understanding of passages just like this!

Well off to my sons wedding. Will respond again Monday PM.

OK... Lets take the language in the original Commission Spoken by Jesus to the disciples :
Matthew 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The word that Jesus purposefully chose to use for "The World" here in the original Greek is:

oikoumené: the inhabited earth
Original Word: οἰκουμένη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikoumené
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kou-men'-ay)
Definition: the inhabited earth
Usage: (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.

So, If you Take Paul's word as it is in the original, and admonish me not to apply a broader, secondary meaning not found in the original, I take it you also do not ascribe a broader meaning to Jesus' purposeful use of "oikoumené" than the original allows for?

Jesus, in the original Language Said:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the [Roman Empire] world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Surely you agree that we have no scriptural instruction, nor etymological rule, instructing us to broaden the specific, narrow meaning of oikoumené that Jesus' purposefully used, into the "Whole Globe" or "Entire Planet", or anywhere outside the Roman Empire's boundaries in the 1st century for that matter, correct?

 

[parousia70]

Well mostly because doctors in Israel did not practice abortion-

I don't know if that is correct or not... do you have any information to support this claim? I'll do some research myself and maybe we can compare notes later. And since Midwives were the primary care providers for Pregnancy, not Doctors, they would also likely be the ones to handle terminations, not doctors.

We do know that Priests practiced it, however. (Numbers 5:11-31)

but we do have a murder charge against anyone who punches a pregnant woman and causes her baby to die!

What scripture is that?
Surely You don't mean Exodus 21:22-25 do you?
For that scripture says the opposite. That scripture says that if the woman suffers a miscarriage but the woman is otherwise unharmed (no mischief follow), then the offender must simply pay her husband a fine for the loss of their "property"(the Fetus), if the woman dies,(mischief follows) then it's a murder charge.

Also given the fact that God said to a prophet that before He was even formed He was known by God- makes a poweful case that life begins at conception and was known by God before conception.

Conversely, the notion that "Breath = Life" is used throughout scripture. The bible declares that God breathed life into man's body (Genesis 2:7). At least a dozen more verses indicate that breath is synonymous with life. Before 1st breath, there is no life, after last breath, again, no life... that seems to make a powerful case as well.

Also, God said He could raise up Children of Abraham for a pile of Rocks.
Should we then infer that Life begins with Rocks and therefore no rocks should be harmed because of their potential to become Children of Abraham?

These conundrums always seem to pop up whenever I apply your given reasoning with any sort of consistency...

Curious.

 

[mkgal1]

Well mostly because doctors in Israel did not practice abortion

It seems to me that priests were instructed to cause miscarriages, though (based on this passage) if a man suspected his wife was unfaithful:

Numbers 5:14-22 ~ If jealousy overcomes him and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself, or if jealousy overcomes him and he is jealous of his wife who hasn’t defiled herself,15 then the man will bring his wife to the priest. He will bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He will not pour oil on it, nor offer frankincense with it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a grain offering for recognition in order to recognize guilt.16 The priest will bring her close and make her stand before the Lord.17 The priest will take holy water in a clay jar, and taking dust from the floor of the dwelling, the priest will place it in the water. 18 The priest will make the woman stand before the Lord, let the hair of the woman hang down, and place the grain offering for recognition, that is, the grain offering for jealousy, in her hands. The water of bitterness that brings the curse will be in the hands of the priest.

19 Then the priest will make her swear a solemn pledge, saying to the woman, “If no man has slept with you and if you haven’t had an affair, becoming defiled while married to your husband, then be immune from the water of bitterness that brings these curses. 20 But if you have had an affair while married to your husband, if you have defiled yourself, and a man other than your husband has laid with you”— 21 then the priest must make the woman utter the curse and say to the woman, “May the Lord make you a curse and a harmful pledge among your people, when the Lord induces a miscarriage and your womb discharges. 22 And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.”​