Did Jesus save us from God?

[Clare73]

The "gospel of peace" is reconciliation (peace) with God through remittance of our sin by faith in the person and atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ, which cancels our debt and makes us right with God's justice; i.e., at peace, enmity removed.

Know what I notice about Paul's gospel?... the sacrificial system where sinful man was trying to be cleansed by blood sacrifice. That's a heathen thing.

The book of Leviticus from the very mouth of God to Moses
(Leviticus 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1 etc., etc. etc.)
is a heathen thing?

Yours is not orthodox Christianity.
Yours is baloney.

 

[Clare73]

God's wrath is not restoration to righteousnss as you claim.

That wasn't my claim.

Once more, yours following:

I think of God's wrath like an intense all-consuming fire and us as a scrap of paper. no matter how pristine that paper is or how tainted it is it's going to burn up just the same and the paper doesn't stand a chance. But Christ transforms us so that the consuming fire is no longer something that will harm destroy or cause death but rather something that will heal, restore and cause life.

 

[Clare73]

I know that Luke isn't one of the Eleven Disciples from Galilee.

Good for you. . .

 

[ViaCrucis]

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:

Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, (Jesus)

Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Rev 14:19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia.

Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Your post seems to presuppose that I'm rejecting the idea of God's wrath.

I'm not.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ligurian]

The book of Leviticus from the very mouth of God to Moses
(Leviticus 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1 etc., etc. etc.)
is a heathen thing?

Yours is not orthodox Christianity.
Yours is baloney.

They asked for a King... that's a heathen thing. So, why are you surprised when Isaiah says they've chosen their own ways?

1 Samuel 8:7. And the Lord said unto Samuel, "Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.

And they chose Moses, too:
Exodus 20:19 and said to Moses, Speak thou to us, and let not God speak to us, lest we die.

Exodus 20:24-26 20 ...God is come to you to try you, that His fear may be among you, that ye sin not... 24 Ye shall make to Me an altar of earth; and upon it ye shall sacrifice your whole burnt-offerings, and your peace-offerings, and your sheep and your calves in every place, where I shall record My name; and I will come to thee and bless thee. 25 And if thou wilt make to Me an altar of stones, thou shalt not build them hewn stones; for thou hast lifted up thy tool upon them, and they are defiled. 26 Thou shalt not go up to My altar by steps, that thou mayest not uncover thy nakedness upon it.LXX

When they hired Hiram to dress the stones, and made linen breeches, they failed the test. So, God sent them Prophets.

Isaiah 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Isaiah 43:24-26 Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins, and in thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins; and I will not remember them. 26 But do thou remember, and let us plead together: do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Hosea 6:7 For I will have mercy rather than sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than whole-burnt-offerings.LXX

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, He saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and He saith unto him, Follow Me. And he arose, and followed Him. 10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto His disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard [that], He said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

 

[Ligurian]

Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, (Jesus)

Revelation 2:1-12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith He which hath the sharp sword with two edges; 13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, where Satan's seat: and thou holdest fast My name, and hast not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas My faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Numbers 23:1-7 And Balaam said to Balac, Build me here seven altars, and prepare me here seven calves, and seven rams. 7 ...Balac king of Moab sent for me out of Mesopotamia...LXX

Isaiah 2:20-21 For in that day a man shall cast forth his silver and gold abominations, which they made in order to worship vanities and bats; 21 to enter into the caverns of the solid rock, and into the clefts of the rocks, for fear of the Lord, and by reason of the glory of His might, when He shall arise to strike terribly the earth.LXX

 

[Clare73]

Know what I notice about Paul's gospel?... the sacrificial system where sinful man was trying to be cleansed by blood sacrifice. That's a heathen thing.

The book of Leviticus from the very mouth of God to Moses where the sacrifices are legislated
(Leviticus 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1 etc., etc.)
is a heathen thing?

They asked for a King... that's a heathen thing.

Non-responsive to my question.

 

[Ligurian]

They asked for a King... that's a heathen thing. So, why are you surprised when Isaiah says they've chosen their own ways?

1 Samuel 8:7. And the Lord said unto Samuel, "Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.

And they chose Moses, too:
Exodus 20:19 and said to Moses, Speak thou to us, and let not God speak to us, lest we die.

Exodus 20:24-26 20 ...God is come to you to try you, that His fear may be among you, that ye sin not... 24 Ye shall make to Me an altar of earth; and upon it ye shall sacrifice your whole burnt-offerings, and your peace-offerings, and your sheep and your calves in every place, where I shall record My name; and I will come to thee and bless thee. 25 And if thou wilt make to Me an altar of stones, thou shalt not build them hewn stones; for thou hast lifted up thy tool upon them, and they are defiled. 26 Thou shalt not go up to My altar by steps, that thou mayest not uncover thy nakedness upon it.LXX

When they hired Hiram to dress the stones, and made linen breeches, they failed the test. So, God sent them Prophets.

Isaiah 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Isaiah 43:24-26 Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins, and in thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins; and I will not remember them. 26 But do thou remember, and let us plead together: do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Hosea 6:7 For I will have mercy rather than sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than whole-burnt-offerings.LXX

Matthew 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, He saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and He saith unto him, Follow Me. And he arose, and followed Him. 10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto His disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard [that], He said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Non-responsive to my question.

Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon Me, O God, according to thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy compassions blot out my transgression. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I am conscious of mine iniquity; and my sin is continually before me. 4 Against Thee only have I sinned, and done evil before Thee: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged. 5 For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me.
6 For, behold, Thou lovest truth: Thou hast manifested to me the secret and hidden things of Thy wisdom. 7 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be purified: Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow. 8 Thou shalt cause me to hear gladness and joy: the afflicted bones shall rejoice. 9 Turn away Thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit in my inward parts. 11 Cast me not away from Thy presence; and remove not Thy holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Thy salvation: establish me with Thy directing Spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and ungodly men shall turn to thee. 14 Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation: and my tongue shall joyfully declare Thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, Thou shalt open my lips; and my mouth shall declare Thy praise. 16 For if Thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it: Thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings. 17 Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.
18 Do good, O Lord, to Sion in Thy good pleasure; and let the walls of Jerusalem be built. 19 Then shalt Thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, offering, and whole-burnt-sacrifices: then shall they offer calves upon Thine altar.LXX

 

[Clare73]

The book of Leviticus from the very mouth of God to Moses where the sacrifices are legislated
(Leviticus 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1 etc., etc.)
is a heathen thing?

Psalms 51:1 Have mercy upon Me, O God, according to thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy compassions blot out my transgression. 2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I am conscious of mine iniquity; and my sin is continually before me. 4 Against Thee only have I sinned, and done evil before Thee: that Thou mightest be justified in Thy sayings, and mightest overcome when Thou art judged. 5 For, behold, I was conceived in iniquities, and in sins did my mother conceive me.
6 For, behold, Thou lovest truth: Thou hast manifested to me the secret and hidden things of Thy wisdom. 7 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be purified: Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow. 8 Thou shalt cause me to hear gladness and joy: the afflicted bones shall rejoice. 9 Turn away Thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities. 10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit in my inward parts. 11 Cast me not away from Thy presence; and remove not Thy holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Thy salvation: establish me with Thy directing Spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and ungodly men shall turn to thee. 14 Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation: and my tongue shall joyfully declare Thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, Thou shalt open my lips; and my mouth shall declare Thy praise. 16 For if Thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it: Thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings. 17 Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.
18 Do good, O Lord, to Sion in Thy good pleasure; and let the walls of Jerusalem be built. 19 Then shalt Thou be pleased with a sacrifice of righteousness, offering, and whole-burnt-sacrifices: then shall they offer calves upon Thine altar.LXX

Non-responsive to my question. . .

 

[misput]

Yours is not orthodox Christianity.
Yours is baloney.

Orthodox Christianity has within it many creeds, doctrines and opinions of man and therefore contains much baloney also : )

 

[misput]

As a child, I was raised on baloney but as I became an adult I was offered much better food : )

 

[SkyWriting]

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

For those who believe.

 

[misput]

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

I see it as God saving us from His wrath through Himself in the person of Christ, God with us.

 

[Clare73]

Orthodox Christianity has within it many creeds, doctrines and opinions of man and therefore contains much baloney also : )

Are you agreeing with Ligurian in post #301?

By orthodox, I also include the Creeds.

 

[andreha]

"Did Jesus save us from God?" seems to be a common question/saying among those who believe in universal salvation.

But Romans 5:9 seems to indicate that's exactly what happened:

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him"

That certainly is a common perception. Many folks perceive God the Father as the stern one, and Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be more loving and caring. But that would be wrong, as the Trinity exists in perfect harmony, all being equally loving. I suppose it comes down to both the Spirit and the Son being more than willing to do the will of the Father. The Son offered His life so we may have life, and the Spirit reveals God's love to us.

 

[misput]

Are you agreeing with Ligurian in post #301?

No.

By orthodox, I also include the Creeds.

I figured u did, hook, line and sinker, because that is the way you were taught and unable to think outside of the orthodox box.
Let's not get into these until we chew on Rom.5 some more.

 

[Clare73]

No.

I figured u did, hook, line and sinker, because that is the way you were taught and unable to think outside of the orthodox box.
Let's not get into these until we chew on Rom.5 some more.

Chewed on. . .

 

[misput]

Chewed on. . .

Arkansas for study : )

 

[prophecy_uk]

How about the other way around, who saves you from the wrath of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb ( one same throne)...


Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

 

[Ligurian]

Know what I notice about Paul's gospel?... the sacrificial system where sinful man was trying to be cleansed by blood sacrifice. That's a heathen thing.

But here's what the Father says about that:

Isaiah 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Isaiah 43:24-26 Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins, and in thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins; and I will not remember them. 26 But do thou remember, and let us plead together: do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Because there is no forgiveness without repentance.

Matthew 5:22-24 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

The book of Leviticus from the very mouth of God to Moses
(Leviticus 1:1, 4:1, 5:14, 6:1, 8, 19, 24, 7:22, 28, 8:1, 11:1, 12:1, 13:1, 14:1 etc., etc. etc.)
is a heathen thing?

Yours is not orthodox Christianity.
Yours is baloney.

What does Leviticus have to do with Christianity?

Non-responsive to my question. . .

When some verses of the Bible contradict other verses, do you just assume you don't understand what they're saying? If you try to fit them together, which documents do you choose to twist?