Did Jesus save us from God?

[prophecy_uk]

Ligurian: "Because there is no forgiveness without repentance."


There is no repentance without a penitent heart, that is the knowledge of Christ that leads man to repentance, as on his own, he cannot repent...


Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[Clare73]

What does Leviticus have to do with Christianity?

You brought up the subject. . .

The same thing the sacrifices legislated in Leviticus had to do with Christianity, which sacrifices you said were heathen.

When some verses of the Bible contradict other verses, do you just assume you don't understand what they're saying? If you try to fit them together, which documents do you choose to twist?

It would be easier to show if you just presented an example.
Hint: context usually resolves what appear to some to be "contradictions."

 

[prophecy_uk]

Clare likes to talk about the old testament, but is somehow unaware of this testimony of the Lord:


1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.


1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

 

[prophecy_uk]

GF: "No, Jesus is God."


Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Clare73]

Clare likes to talk about the old testament, but is somehow unaware of this testimony of the Lord:

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

And how does that put the OT and NT in disagreement?

Context. . .
The man who thinks he knows something (by the standards of the world, 1 Corinthians 3:18),
does not know as he ought to know (sound instruction, godly teaching, 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
It is the one who tempers his knowledge with love towards God who shows that he is really known and accepted by God as one of his own redeemed (1 Corinthians 8:3).

Those pagan, but now new Corinthians, whose consciences were weak (thought idols were real gods) and, therefore, eating meat sacrificed on pagan altars and sold in the meat market, involved themselves in pagan worship and thus sinning against Christ, would be influenced by the example of the stronger, more knowledgeable Christians, and though the new Christian feels it to be wrong, in eating the meat that has been offered to an idol, he wounds his weak conscience (1 Corinthians 8:12), blunts it so that it gets used to doing wrong, which can result in moral tragedy.

Worldly knowledge puffs up, but love for the brethren makes allowances for their immaturity in knowledge of the faith.
However, worldly knowledge and immature knowlegde of the faith are not really what is going on here.

Do you have something vested, in the name of charity, in defending immature knowledge. . .say, as allowing one to move around between the supposed "contradictions" in the Scriptures, as a refuge for denying Biblical accountability?

 

[Clare73]

GF: "No, Jesus is God."
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Indeed. . .but it is not faith's own works that save, it is only the faith itself which saves
(Ephesians 2:8-9).

The works are part of the growth in holiness of the Christian life after the one-time transaction of salvation, which itself is by faith apart from its works. (Romans 4:5)

 

[Ligurian]

Know what I notice about Paul's gospel?... the sacrificial system where sinful man was trying to be cleansed by blood sacrifice. That's a heathen thing.

But here's what the Father says about that:

Isaiah 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Isaiah 43:24-26 Neither hast thou purchased for Me victims for silver, neither have I desired the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou didst stand before Me in thy sins, and in thine iniquities. 25 I, even I, am He that blots out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and thy sins; and I will not remember them. 26 But do thou remember, and let us plead together: do thou first confess thy transgressions, that thou mayest be justified.LXX

Why don't you consider those verses of Isaiah worth noting?
Or Psalms 51:16-17, Micah 6:7-8 and Jeremiah 7:4-7, etc.?
Why else do you think the Pharisees killed the Prophets?

What does Leviticus have to do with Christianity?

You brought up the subject. . .

The same thing the sacrifices legislated in Leviticus had to do with Christianity, which sacrifices you said were heathen.

Your guy Paul says the law is nailed to the cross... so how do you figure that Leviticus has anything to do with Christianity... since Paul tears down Leviticus with his own bare hands?

It would be easier to show if you just presented an example.
Hint: context usually resolves what appear to some to be "contradictions."

"Here then, there is a clear statement and assertion of the Christian doctrine of vicarious atonement, cast in the Egyptian idioms of the Isis-Osiris cycle. To continue, Harmachis now prepares for the next stages of his mystical ascent; the elderly priest departs leaving him alone in the temple."
The Visions of Harmachis: Initiation, Anacalypsis and Gnosis in the Egyptian Occultism of H. Rider Haggard
(No, I don't endorse it... think of this as a starting point.)

 

[prophecy_uk]

Clare: "And how does that put the OT and NT in disagreement?"



The old testament shows all the Lord came to fulfil, and shows the Jews unable to do the commandments of God, and also having commandments to hate their enemy, along with killing of them, and killing in the law.


Now, we do one thing, we look forward, and it is a new testament, new creature, one that is harmless, and one that believes in the risen Lord, in a new soft heart which is the new covenant, God gave the heart of flesh and the Holy Spirit.

The same as the law was not made for a righteous man, it was made for the lawless.


1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Why don't you consider those verses of Isaiah worth noting?
Or Psalms 51:16-17, Micah 6:7-8 and Jeremiah 7:4-7, etc.?
Why else do you think the Pharisees killed the Prophets?

Why do you not carefully read the text?

God regards the sacrifices of Israel as of dogs and swine because of Israel's faithlessness and disobedience, not because the sacrifices themselves are defiled. Israel was defiled.

Your guy Paul says the law is nailed to the cross... so how do you figure that Leviticus has anything to do with Christianity... since Paul tears down Leviticus with his own bare hands?

1) You brought up "sacrifices," not me, and the sacrifices are legislated in Leviticus.

2) To answer your question: Leviticus contained patterns of future forms. When the forms based on the patterns are completed, the patterns are no longer needed, are set aside, discarded (as the patterns of Leviticus are). .and the forms/substance (of the patterns) are now operative in the New Covenant of the NT. The patterns are discarded.

"Here then, there is a clear statement and assertion of the Christian doctrine of vicarious atonement,

Where is this statement?

Keeping in mind, my authority for divine truth is the Biblical text, nothing more, and any alleged contradictions within those Scriptures I will address, nothing more.

cast in the Egyptian idioms of the Isis-Osiris cycle. To continue, Harmachis now prepares for the next stages of his mystical ascent; the elderly priest departs leaving him alone in the temple."
The Visions of Harmachis: Initiation, Anacalypsis and Gnosis in the Egyptian Occultism of H. Rider Haggard
(No, I don't endorse it... think of this as a starting point.)

 

[Clare73]

Clare: "And how does that put the OT and NT in disagreement?"

The old testament shows all the Lord came to fulfil, and shows the Jews unable to do the commandments of God, and also having commandments to hate their enemy, along with killing of them, and killing in the law.

The NT text you presented, as my being unaware of in my discussion of the OT, contrasted the spiritual gifts with charity.

What does that have to do with my discussion of the OT?

Now, we do one thing, we look forward, and it is a new testament, new creature, one that is harmless, and one that believes in the risen Lord, in a new soft heart which is the new covenant, God gave the heart of flesh and the Holy Spirit.

The same as the law was not made for a righteous man, it was made for the lawless.


1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ligurian]

Esaias 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Why do you not carefully read the text?

God regards the sacrifices of Israel as of dogs and swine because of Israel's faithlessness and disobedience, not because the sacrifices themselves are defiled. Israel was defiled.

Well, duuuh.

The only reason for atonement-propitiation to be part of that priesthood-doctrine would be if Israel sinned... otherwise, there's no need for that whole sin-sacrifice and a scapegoat thingy.

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Matthew 5:19 says Commandments in the Kingdom of Heaven are able... not only to be taught against... but broken... all of the Sermon on the Mount is Kingdom Law. Therefore, Kingdom Law is the home-base of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And since the keeping of this Kingdom Law is how sheep are given the Holy Spirit
in John 14:15-17... it follows that Galatians 3:5 is an entirely different gospel.

 

[Ligurian]

The old testament shows all the Lord came to fulfil, and shows the Jews unable to do the commandments of God, and also having commandments to hate their enemy, along with killing of them, and killing in the law.

Here's the other half of that coin. Killing in the name of God. How does the conquest bypass thou shalt not covet, murder and steal? and by man shall his blood be spilled? much less turn the other cheek? People get all kinds of fancy with ways to get past the no spilling blood commandment... including getting someone else to do it for you... meanwhile your brother's blood is crying out to God against you. And Revelation says those who live by the sword will die by the sword. And slave-dealers will be slaves. Revelation gets to an eye for an eye... but it's done by God... the only one without sin who is able to cast the first stone. If Jesus says we have seen God when we've seen Him... Do we believe that kill everything that breathes is something Jesus would say?

 

[Saint Steven]

Ligurian: "Because there is no forgiveness without repentance." @Ligurian

There is no repentance without a penitent heart, that is the knowledge of Christ that leads man to repentance, as on his own, he cannot repent...

I disagree with both of you on those points.

Forgiveness has to be unconditional on the part of the one doing the forgiving.

Repentance simply means a change of direction. Typically a 180 degree U-turn. It can be purely rational with no emotion at all. To turn from sin, is to turn from sin. Stop doing this, start doing that. How much emotion is required in that?

And how would such a thing even be measured? Were you "sorry" enough to be forgiven? Could you have been more sorry? (of course) Were you sorry enough? (who knows?)

I agree that there is a place for brokenness, but it is not a requirement. IMHO

 

[prophecy_uk]

Ligurian: " Revelation gets to an eye for an eye... but it's done by God... the only one without sin who is able to cast the first stone"


We do not need to cast a stone, we have the stone in us who is offence to all who resist.

God does not do eye for eye, that is humans who had and lost human eyes.

God takes all unrighteousness away, when He makes all things wherein dwells righteousness, that is all that will be done.



"Steven: "Repentance simply means a change of direction. Typically a 180 degree U-turn. It can be purely rational with no emotion at all. To turn from sin, is to turn from sin. Stop doing this, start doing that. How much emotion is required in that?"



Because repentance is the gift of God, which is the Holy Ghost in a soft heart of flesh, and that contains all the emotion that God is then, against the hard heart of man that is without natural affection..


2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

2 Timothy 3:3
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

[Ceallaigh]

Because repentance is the gift of God, which is the Holy Ghost in a soft heart of flesh, and that contains all the emotion that God is then, against the hard heart of man that is without natural affection..

That brought to mind Acts of the Apostles 2:36-38

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[prophecy_uk]

I can play that game too..


Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Clare73]

Esaias 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Well, duuuh.

The only reason for atonement-propitiation to be part of that priesthood-doctrine would be if Israel sinned... otherwise, there's no need for that whole sin-sacrifice and a scapegoat thingy.

Back at you. . .

The sacrifices were to be offered in sincere repentance for God's acceptance.
Israel was offering them in unbelief and disobedience, hence to God they were defiled.

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Matthew 5:19 says Commandments in the Kingdom of Heaven are able... not only to be taught against... but broken... all of the Sermon on the Mount is Kingdom Law. Therefore, Kingdom Law is the home-base of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And since the keeping of this Kingdom Law is how sheep are given the Holy Spirit
in John 14:15-17... it follows that Galatians 3:5 is an entirely different gospel.

So you reject the NT gospel?

I'm thinking we don't have a basis for discussion.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[prophecy_uk]

To Clare, defiled is defiled, and clean is clean, and pure is pure..

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[Ligurian]

Esaias 66:3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX


Well, duuuh.

The only reason for atonement-propitiation to be part of that priesthood-doctrine would be if Israel sinned... otherwise, there's no need for that whole sin-sacrifice and a scapegoat thingy.

The sure mercies of David are only needed if Laws are there to be broken.
So... the Everlasting Covenant has nothing at all to do with Paul's gentile gospel.

Matthew 5:19 says Commandments in the Kingdom of Heaven are able... not only to be taught against... but broken... all of the Sermon on the Mount is Kingdom Law. Therefore, Kingdom Law is the home-base of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

And since the keeping of this Kingdom Law is how sheep are given the Holy Spirit
in John 14:15-17... it follows that Galatians 3:5 is an entirely different gospel.

The sacrifices were to be offered in sincere repentance for God's acceptance.
Israel was offering them in unbelief and disobedience, hence to God they were defiled.

So you reject the NT gospel?
I'm thinking we don't have a basis for discussion.

Repentence is physical not vicarious... God can't be bribed... especially in a system where the rich could be as sinful as they could afford to be.

Psalms 51:16-17 For if thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it: thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings. 17 Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise.

Esaias 66:2-3 For all these things are Mine, saith the Lord: and to whom will I have respect, but to the humble and meek, and the man that trembles at My words? 3 But the transgressor that sacrifices a calf to Me, is as he that kills a dog; and he that offers fine flour, as one that offers swine’s blood; he that gives frankincense for a memorial, is as a blasphemer. Yet they have chosen their own ways, and their soul has delighted in their abominations.LXX

Michaeas 6:6-8 Wherewithal shall I reach the Lord, and lay hold of My God most high? shall I reach Him by whole-burnt-offerings, by calves of a year old? 7 Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? should I give my first-born for ungodliness, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 Has it not been told thee, O man, what is good? or what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justice, and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God?LXX


Now where'd you get the idea that the circumcision has to either accept or reject the uncircumcision gospel? Other people's mail, not mine, Galatians 2:7-9.


I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, for the circumcision:

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and disciple always the Nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Matthew 10:5--Matthew 11:1 is one long commandment from Jesus to His Galilean Disciples, saying whom to teach and what to teach them:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel; and as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

Therefore, the 11 of Galilee were forever commanded this about Paul's gentiles: "Go not into the way of the gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not"