Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

GW · Dec 14, 2002

OS,

All the verses I posted fully refute those ECFs who preached "delay." The earliest Church fathers (Paul, Peter, James, John) made "delay" an impossible teaching.

parousia70 · Dec 14, 2002

Hehe coug, I knew when you said "one last question" you were joking.  

Tell ya what, I'll answer your latest onslaught to the best of my ability, but but I'll pepper my answers with a few questions of you, in the hopes that you will extend me the same courtsey of answering them that I have extended you.

That's fair right? 

Originally posted by cougan
Is Jesus still reigning on his thrown today?

According to Isaiah 9:7, yes.

There will be no end to the increase of His (Jesus') government and peace.

In direct conflict with this scripture, You seem to think His government will one day end.

Why?

In whose name do you pray. for instance I might pray Father please forgive me of my sins in Jesus name amen.

I might do that as well. 

I am still trying to see which kind of preterist you are. Most that I have ran across say that ALL prophecy was fullfilled by 70AD.

And when pressed, most will agree that some prophesies, by their very nature, have no consumation point, but are in a continual state of ongoing fulfillment forever. (Isaiah 9:7 for example)

However, as a preterist I afirm the past fulfillment of all eschatological prophesies.

If we are in the new heaven and new earth then we can not sin because there is no more death nor sorrow nor crying. Last time I checked all these things are still happening.

If there is no sin in the New H&E, How exactly do you explain  the very real presence of Murderers, adulters, harlot mongers and various other "SINNERS" in and on the New H&E (Revelation 22:15)

Also Isaiah 65:17-23 affirms the very real presence of Birth, Ageing, Death and Sinners in the New H&E.

According to you, they can't be there, but acording to scripture, they are there.

I'll stick with scripture.

If your view holds to the rest I have delt with the age mentioned here is the one we are in right now according to your view. We are in our spiritually resurected bodies which did not occur until 70 AD. Therefore if this is your view we can not die anymore nor are we to marry anymore.

Preterists, like futurists, differ with eachother in certain aspects, so i can only speak for myself here.

Before AD 70 all who died in the HOPE of Christ wento to Sheol or Hades to await the resurrection into the presence of God. Since AD70, all who die in Christ are immediatly clothed in our resurrection bodies and ushered directly into heaven and so shall we ever be with the lord. 

As the scripture teaches:

'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' (Rev 14:13) 

acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

When did this happen

This is a good text! I'm glad you brought it up.

The Literal translation uses the greek word "MELLO, for "Will be" which literally means "ABOUT TO BE", or, to be on the very point of ocourring.

So acording to the text, way back in the 1st century, Paul INFALLIBLY CLAIMED that there was "ABOUT TO BE" a resurrection.

I  agree with Paul here, and in AD 70, it happened.

1cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When did this happen

AD70 

The "Change" was positional in nature. BEfore AD 70 all went to hades upon physical death. Since AD70 believers were changed positionally, covenantally, in the sight of God, no longer to be sent to a "Holding tank" awaiting redemption, but truly redeemed.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
When did this happen

No man today escapes having to confess Jesus is Lord.

All stand before Him, each in his own order.

If you disagree, please show from scripture how my view mandates that any man can somehow avoid having to stand before God and confess He is Lord?

1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

When did this happen

As this scripture teaches, the living were not to be caught up before, or at the same time as the dead, but at a "later" time. Scripture does not teach a "simultainous" raising of the living and dead. 

The resurrection of the dead is just that. The resurrection of the dead. nowhere does scripture teach a resurrection of the living. you have to be "dead" to be resurrected.

The dead were resurrected out of Hades into Gods presence in 70AD, THEN (at a later time) We alive are caught up when we shed this earthly tent and are clothed in our "house made without hands, eternal in the heavens".

There is no more Hades, when we physically die we are either clothed in our resurrection bodies that "God Gives us" (1Corinthians 15:38), or we are judged and cast in to the lake of fire where we remain, forever suffering  in our sin.

Mat 25:31 " When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:ff

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

If this already happend there is no need to try and teach or save anyone because according to verse 46 at that time all everyone was either sent to everlasting punishment or to eternal life in heaven.

Contrary to your asertion, the "everlasting gospel" which sole purpose is to call sinners to salvation, has no "use by" or "expiration" date. It is EVERLASTING.

Even in the New H&E, those inside the New Jeruslem call out to all outside the city who thirst to "come! drink the water of life freely". (Rev. 22) 

You say calling out to the lost ceases in the New H&E, scripture says it continues.

I'll stick with scripture 

I am curious do you partake of the Lords Supper? If you do why do you do it?

Yes I do.

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that Day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matt. 26:29; Mk. 14:25; Lk. 22:16-18)

Since A.D. 70, Christ takes the Lord's Supper with us in a new way, i.e., with new meaning. The Lord's Supper is no longer a somber remembrance, but it is a celebration feast. 

It is the "Wedding supper of the Lamb" 

 

parousia70 · Dec 14, 2002

By the way Coug,

You promised you would address Luke's Chronology of events in His paralell account of Matt 24.

Can I expect you to do that any time soon?

Also, Before you unleash your next stockpile of questions on me, please check out

 THIS LINK

 To see if they have already been answered there.

In the Victory of Christ,

P70

cougan · Dec 16, 2002

parousia70 I will answer you questions to the best of my ability and understanding. I am not the type to keep asking questions without answering those posed by the other party. It would not be fair. I just poped in here to tell you that. I will be slow at responding over the next couple of weeks because I have a lot going on. I don't just throw down words really fast I take time to think about what I am posting. So give me time.

Cougan

parousia70 · Dec 16, 2002

Thanks Coug, I appriciate your willingness to dialogue with me instead of interrigate me.
Take all the time you need.

P70

armothe · Dec 17, 2002

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I really couldn't care less what seems to you.

 

And I don't care what the "end times" seemed to persons such as Eusebius, Polycarp, & Ignatius. They are uninspired, period.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
 How is it that you think we have more resources than John and Paul's disciples?

Because I do not believe John and Paul's disciples had a complete copy of the inspiried Word of God - the Bible. You think Barnabas had a copy of LUKE or MICAH?
Nor do I think the majority of those living in the 2nd, or 3rd century had more resources than we do today.

Originally posted by OldShepherd  
Who are these "bunch of philosphers". Are you referring to the first cent. Christians, many of whom were brutallly tortured and murdered for their faith? Ignatius, John's disciple, for instant.

 

Justin Martyr, Theophilous, Tatian, Tertullian were all well-educated (philosophers) heathens at one point. In time they were converted to Christianity - much like us today. Their writings are still uninspired, however.

Originally posted by OldShepherd
"copies of fragments", indeed. How is it then, if all they had were fragments that you have a complete Bible in your hand? Might want to learn a few facts about the Bible and the early church.

 

Yes, indeed. How many Christians from 100-300AD do you think had a complete copy of the Bible....all inspired 66 books? And here's a fact about Christian History...it took almost 200 years to finalize the canon. On another note, these early Christians also had to deal with uninspired writings as well.

I maintain that present day christians have more resources, and more accurate information than the early christians did. Hence, we should be coming to more educated conclusions regarding God's Word.

-A

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 18, 2002

Originally posted by judge [/i]
 Did ou Lord promise to return in power and glory, in His kingdom in the first century? C.S. Lewis thought so, and if we read the plain meaning of the text it certainly appears so.

C.S. Lewis said, "The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible." (Essay "The World's Last Night" (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)QUOTE]Originally posted by judge
 Did ou Lord promise to return in power and glory, in His kingdom in the first century? C.S. Lewis thought so, and if we read the plain meaning of the text it certainly appears so.

C.S. Lewis said, "The apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else. This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible." (Essay "The World's Last Night" (1960), found in The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)

Eph replies...

Of course IF you look at it in the wrong context like you have done...You'll come away convinced your correct....!

This might make you feel vindicated in whatever it is you do "believe"...But it wouldn't be keeping with the scriptural account...

Your subject for example is from MATT 24:34...But Jesus wasn't speaking about the people standing around him in ear shot..Jesus was speaking about the "generation that would be alive" when ALL these things mentioned in the verses prior...would be happening...! That isn't 1st century Christians then..but LAST Days people living then..!

Notice MATT 24:35..and Matt 24:36..Go together...!

No one knows the day and the hour when heaven and earth shall pass away...BECAUSE of REV 20:3..and REV 20:7:8...no one knows how long the "little season " satan is loosed will last...!

Matt 24:34...is the completion of a different subject that Jesus was speaking on...What it would be like in the last days...Prior to his coming...!

Re view the 3 direct questions asked to Jesus by the Apostles in Matt 24:3...! then break down the 3 answers given in their PROPER context..and order they are answered in...!

Hope that helps...!

parousia70 · Dec 18, 2002

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777

Your subject for example is from MATT 24:34...But Jesus wasn't speaking about the people standing around him in ear shot..Jesus was speaking about the "generation that would be alive" when ALL these things mentioned in the verses prior...would be happening...! That isn't 1st century Christians then..but LAST Days people living then..!

Matt 24:34...is the completion of a different subject that Jesus was speaking on...What it would be like in the last days...Prior to his coming...!

Problem is Eph, according to scripture, 1st century Christians were "Last Days" people. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus and His apostles were living in the "Last Days" at the "end of the Age". (Heb 1:1-3, Acts 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:26, 1Corinthians 10:11)

To assert that Jesus was not speaking to His apostles in Matt 24, about things THEY THEMSELVES would see, is to twist scripture beyond all recognition.

parousia70 · Dec 18, 2002

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
Re view the 3 direct questions asked to Jesus by the Apostles in Matt 24:3...! then break down the 3 answers given in their PROPER context..and order they are answered in...!

Lets re view together shall we?

3 Questions:

1) When is the temple going to fall?

2) What will be the sign of your coming?

3) when is the end of the age?

Lets start with question #1

Matt 24:3a

When will "these things" be? (referring to temple stones being thrown down,vs 24:2 "See all these things?.....not one stone shall be left upon another")

Now, using Matt 24:4 and on, please show where Jesus answers this question #1?

 

cougan · Feb 2, 2003

Howdy Parousia 70 I am finally ready to start this thread moving again. I had 2 other threads I had been working on but there pretty much done now so I am ready to work on this one now. Before I do though I want make sure you are still watching this thread and are still interested to continue the discussion.

Cougan

OldShepherd · Feb 2, 2003

Originally posted by armothe

And I don't care what the "end times" seemed to persons such as Eusebius, Polycarp, & Ignatius. They are uninspired, period.

Uninspired? Irrelevant! Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of John, was John wrong? Did he teach his disciples wrong? IF Jesus returned in power in the first century, why did John's disciples and Pauls's disciples NOT know it?

Because I do not believe John and Paul's disciples had a complete copy of the inspiried Word of God - the Bible. You think Barnabas had a copy of LUKE or MICAH?
Nor do I think the majority of those living in the 2nd, or 3rd century had more resources than we do today.

Can you PROVE what you think or believe? Do you have any historical information that they did not have a complete Bible? First, the Qumran and Dead Sea scrolls PROVE that during the time of Christ the church had the same O.T. we have today. Scholars have proven that 95% of the N.T. can be reconstructed from the quotes in the early church fathers. All you are doing is regurgitating the false information that your church distributes, accepting it without question.

Justin Martyr, Theophilous, Tatian, Tertullian were all well-educated (philosophers) heathens at one point. In time they were converted to Christianity - much like us today. Their writings are still uninspired, however.

And so were ALL the teachers in whatever church you belong to. Nobody was born a Christian. What does that prove about what they taught after they became believers? Absolutely nothing!

Yes, indeed. How many Christians from 100-300AD do you think had a complete copy of the Bible....all inspired 66 books? And here's a fact about Christian History...it took almost 200 years to finalize the canon. On another note, these early Christians also had to deal with uninspired writings as well.

All the Christians I quoted did! Irrelevant about the canon! They did have the books which were in the canon.

I maintain that present day christians have more resources, and more accurate information than the early christians did. Hence, we should be coming to more educated conclusions regarding God's Word.

You think you can know more about God's word that John and Paul, and the one's they personally taught? And the church has been wrong for 2000 years and you are going to set it straight. Yeah, right!

sumbebhken de autoiV to thV alhyouV paroimiaV kuwn epistreqaV epi to idion exerama

The Thadman · Feb 3, 2003

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

There's a debate about the meaning of the Aramaic word in question ("Ü«ÜªÜÜ¬Ü", sharvtho): Does it mean "generation"? Or does it mean "family"?

It's an old friendly debate that judge and I've had for the past year or so (or has it already been a 1 1/2 to 2 years?).

Judge is probably one of the most knowledgeable people I've met online concerning Preterism, and I'm sure he'd be glad to list his views about the translation debate.

Here's my side:

http://www.AramaicNT.org/HTML/MARK/evidences/Generation.html

and

http://www.AramaicNT.org/HTML/ARTICLES/ShervthaGenea.html

should suffice

I'm going to be updating the pages today sometime, and I hope to have done so by the time everyone comes to read this article.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

judge · Feb 9, 2003

Hi eph! hope you are well!

These "end time" issues can be tricky, and many good people can disagree, so I appreciate the spirit of your reply. :wave:

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777

Your subject for example is from MATT 24:34...But Jesus wasn't speaking about the people standing around him in ear shot..Jesus was speaking about the "generation that would be alive" when ALL these things mentioned in the verses prior...would be happening...! That isn't 1st century Christians then..but LAST Days people living then..!

[/B]

It seems that the writers of the new testament thought that they were living in the last times, or the last days.

So I am not sure how we also can be livibg in the last days if they were? :scratch:

 

All the best and thanks again for your post

judge · Feb 10, 2003

Originally posted by The Thadman
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

There's a debate about the meaning of the Aramaic word in question ("Ü«ÜªÜÜ¬Ü", sharvtho): Does it mean "generation"? Or does it mean "family"?

It's an old friendly debate that judge and I've had for the past year or so (or has it already been a 1 1/2 to 2 years?).

Judge is probably one of the most knowledgeable people I've met online concerning Preterism, and I'm sure he'd be glad to list his views about the translation debate.

Shlomo! (Peace!)

 

Hi thad!....well even though we disagree we can still try to be one in Christ!

 

You know...I sometimes get worried that I may be right about some teaching or other but someone else can still be a better representative of our lord than me!

If you knew me you'd know i just not trying to act all humble or anything too!

armothe · Feb 10, 2003

Holy revival of an old thread, Batman!

OldShepherd said this in Post #91
Uninspired? Irrelevant! Ignatius and Polycarp were disciples of John, was John wrong? Did he teach his disciples wrong? IF Jesus returned in power in the first century, why did John's disciples and Pauls's disciples NOT know it?

Okay, feel free to base your theology on uninspired writings then.
There is a chance that Polycarp and Ignatius misinterpreted what John said, much like you seem to be doing. You stick with Polycarp and Ignatius - I'll stick with John himself.

OldShepherd said this in Post #91 Can you PROVE what you think or believe? Do you have any historical information that they did not have a complete Bible? First, the Qumran and Dead Sea scrolls PROVE that during the time of Christ the church had the same O.T. we have today. Scholars have proven that 95% of the N.T. can be reconstructed from the quotes in the early church fathers. All you are doing is regurgitating the false information that your church distributes, accepting it without question.

Click to expand...

First of all. My church has stated no such thing. You have no idea what church I belong to, or even if I belong to a church. Your claims are unfounded.
However, I will post the history of the canon below so you can finally admit that the early (1st century) christian writers did not have a complete copy of the inspired Bible - like we do today.

AD 51-125: The New Testament books are written, but during this same period other early Christian writings are produced--for example, the Didache (c. AD 70), 1Clement (c. 96), the Epistle of Barnabas (c. 100), and the 7 letters of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110).

AD 140: Marcion, a businessman in Rome, teaches that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the OT, and Abba, the kind father of the NT. So Marcion eliminates the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he is anti-Semitic, keeps from the NT only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke's gospel (he deletes references to Jesus' Jewishness). Marcion's "New Testament"--the first to be compiled--forces the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four gospels and letters of Paul.

AD 200's: But the periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.

AD 367: The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Easter letter of 367.

AD 382: Pope Damascus, lists the New Testament books in their present number and order.

AD 300 - 400's:  Councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419), again define the same list of books as inspired.  This canon was once again reaffirmed by Pope Innocent I in (405); and again by the Council of Carthage in (419)

So here we have it, the Bible as we know it wasn't canonized until the 300s. Hence, we conclude that early Christians did not have the complete writings of the Bible as we do today. This allows us, today, to have a complete picture of God's word.
More info here: http://momo.essortment.com/cannonzationbib_rbnd.htm

OldShepherd said this in Post #91
And so were ALL the teachers in whatever church you belong to. Nobody was born a Christian. What does that prove about what they taught after they became believers? Absolutely nothing!

Click to expand...

You are correct. I take what anyone says to me about the Bible with a certain amount of skepticism. I trust only God's Word. If what I read in the word agrees with what somebody has told me, I consider their views valid. This is why I am skeptical about Polycarp and Ignatius' writings, wheras you seem to think that their writings are infalliable.

OldShepherd said this in Post #91
All the Christians I quoted did! Irrelevant about the canon! They did have the books which were in the canon.

Click to expand...

And I'll throw your comment right back at you. "Prove it".

Historical fact clearly states the complete Bible wasn't finalized until the 300's. You claim those living in the 50's-90's had a complete copy of the Bible. Prove it.

Oh, keep in mind the Dead Sea scrolls did not contain any books from the NT...

OldShepherd said this in Post #91
You think you can know more about God's word that John and Paul, and the one's they personally taught? And the church has been wrong for 2000 years and you are going to set it straight. Yeah, right!

Click to expand...

 

I don't claim to be directly inspired by God...as John and Paul were. But I can read their inspired writings and come awfully close to their meaning behind their thoughts...their writings.

As far as their students go, how often does a student agree with their teacher 100% of the time? You make the assumption that they do. As a matter of fact, you make a lot of assumptions.
I'm surprised you haven't asserted that Ignatius and Polycarp are inspired writings.

My claim still stands. We have a more complete copy of God's Word today, than the early Christians (50-100AD) had.

-A

armothe · Feb 14, 2003

I thought I'd post this as well:

AD 100:

Different parts of our New Testament were written by this time, but not yet collected and defined as 'Scripture'. Early Christian writers (for example Polycarp and Ignatius) quote from the Gospels and Paul's letter, as well as from other Christian writing sources.

Paul's letters were collected late in the first century. Matthew, Mark and Luke were brought together by AD 150.

AD 200: Muratorian Canon

NT books recognized:
     Four Gospels
     Acts
     Paul's Letters
     James
     1 & 2 John
     Jude
     Revelation of John
     Revelation of Peter
     Wisdom of Solomon

AD 250: NT used by Origen

NT books recognized
     Four Gospels
     Acts
     Paul's Letters
     1 John
     1 Peter
     Revelation of John
     
NT books disputed
     Hebrews
     James
     2 Peter
     2 & 3 John
     Jude
     The Shepherd of Hermas
     Letter of Barnabas
     Teaching of Twelve
     Apostles
     Gospel of the Hebrews

AD 300: NT used by Eusebius

NT books recognized
     Four Gospels
     Acts
     Paul's Letters
     1 John
     1 Peter
     Revelation of John (authorship in doubt)
     
NT books disputed but well known
     James
     2 Peter
     2 & 3 John
     Jude

NT books to be excluded
     The Shepherd of Hermas
     Letter of Barnabas
     Teaching of Twelve
     Apostles
     Gospel of the Hebrews
     Revelation of Peter
     Acts of Peter
     Didache

AD 400: Council of Carthage

NT books recognized
     Four Gospels
     Acts
     Paul's Letters
     Hebrews
     James
     1 & 2 Peter
     1,2,3 John
     Jude     
     Revelation (of John)

-A

edpobre · Feb 18, 2003

14th December 2002 at 07:41 PM parousia70 said this in Post #82

According to Isaiah 9:7, yes.

There will be no end to the increase of His (Jesus') government and peace.

In direct conflict with this scripture, You seem to think His government will one day end.

Why?

Apostle Paul wrote that "...when ALL things are made SUBJECT to him, then the Son himself will also be subject to him who put ALL things under him, that God may be all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28).

Has this happened? If it has when did this happen? Did this happen in AD 70? If not, when will this happen?

And when pressed, most will agree that some prophesies, by their very nature, have no consumation point, but are in a continual state of ongoing fulfillment forever. (Isaiah 9:7 for example)

However, as a preterist I afirm the past fulfillment of all eschatological prophesies.

When you say "ALL eschatological prophecies" what do you mean? Do you mind listing these "eschatological" prophecies?

If we are in the new heaven and new earth then we can not sin because there is no more death nor sorrow nor crying. Last time I checked all these things are still happening.

Click to expand...

If there is no sin in the New H&E, How exactly do you explain  the very real presence of Murderers, adulters, harlot mongers and various other "SINNERS" in and on the New H&E (Revelation 22:15).

Also Isaiah 65:17-23 affirms the very real presence of Birth, Ageing, Death and Sinners in the New H&E.

According to you, they can't be there, but acording to scripture, they are there.

I'll stick with scripture.

Parousia70, Rev. 21:1 provides a picture of what the new heavens and new earth WILL look like. It says, "Also there was NO MORE sea."

If we are in the new heaven and new earth, why are there still SEAS all around us?

Rev. 21:3-5 describes the new heaven and new earth where everything is NEW and there is NO MORE death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor pain for the former things have passed away and God DWELLS with His people.

If we are in the new heavens and new earth, what is Saddam Hussein doing here? Why is Usama Bin Laden still going strong?

Rev. 21:10-25 describes the Holy City, the New Jerusalem.

If we are in the new heaven and new earth, where do we find his New Jerusalem?

Preterists, like futurists, differ with eachother in certain aspects, so i can only speak for myself here.

Before AD 70 all who died in the HOPE of Christ wento to Sheol or Hades to await the resurrection into the presence of God. Since AD70, all who die in Christ are immediatly clothed in our resurrection bodies and ushered directly into heaven and so shall we ever be with the lord. 

As the scripture teaches:

'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' (Rev 14:13)

Rev. 14:13 does NOT say that those who die in the Lord "are ushered directly into heaven." The verse says, "that they may rest from their labors and their works follow them."

In fact, there is NO verse in the Bible that supports your belief that those who die "in Christ" are ushered directly into heaven.

1cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When did this happen

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AD70 

The "Change" was positional in nature. BEfore AD 70 all went to hades upon physical death. Since AD70 believers were changed positionally, covenantally, in the sight of God, no longer to be sent to a "Holding tank" awaiting redemption, but truly redeemed.

Your belief that the "change" is "positional in nature" is an INTERPRETATION of what these verses say and that INTERPRETATION is FALSE. Please cite scripture to support your premise that the "change" is positional.

Verse 51 says "we shall NOT all DIE (sleep) but we shall ALL be CHANGED."

Verse 52 says "at the last trumpet (second coming of Christ), the DEAD shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE and those who are ALIVE will be CHANGED."

Verse 53 says the CHANGE is "from CORRUPTIBLE to INCORRUPTION and from MORTAL to IMMORTALITY."

Thus, the DEAD will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE or immortal and those who are ALIVE will be CHANGED from being corruptible to INCORRUPTIBLE or from being mortal to IMMORTAL.

Therefore, IF Christ's second coming (last trumpet) happened in 70 AD, do these verses apply ONLY to those who were dead or alive "in" Christ on or before 70 AD?

What do PRETERISTS of today look forward to IF the CHANGE from being MORTAL to being IMMORTAL does NOT apply to them? And I am sure it does NOT apply to PRETERISTS of today because you say that when a PRETERIST dies, he goes directly to heaven.

Again show me where the Bible gives the assurance that PRETERISTS of today, are "ushered directly to heaven" when they die.

1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

When did this happen

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As this scripture teaches, the living were not to be caught up before, or at the same time as the dead, but at a "later" time. Scripture does not teach a "simultainous" raising of the living and dead.

What you are saying is CONTRARY to what the Bible teaches.

Verse 17 is VERY explicit. It says, "then we who are alive and remain shll be caught up TOGETHER with them (the risen dead) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The resurrection of the dead is just that. The resurrection of the dead. nowhere does scripture teach a resurrection of the living. you have to be "dead" to be resurrected.

And nowhere does scripture teach that you have to be a "resurrected DEAD" to be "caught up in the clouds" to meet Jesus in the air. On the contrary, the Bible teaches that those who are ALIVE  "will be caught up TOGETHER with the DEAD" to meet Jesus in the air.

The dead were resurrected out of Hades into Gods presence in 70AD, THEN (at a later time) We alive are caught up when we shed this earthly tent and are clothed in our "house made without hands, eternal in the heavens".

Please show scripture to support this.

There is no more Hades, when we physically die we are either clothed in our resurrection bodies that "God Gives us" (1Corinthians 15:38), or we are judged and cast in to the lake of fire where we remain, forever suffering  in our sin.

Please show scripture to support this.

Contrary to your asertion, the "everlasting gospel" which sole purpose is to call sinners to salvation, has no "use by" or "expiration" date. It is EVERLASTING.

Even in the New H&E, those inside the New Jeruslem call out to all outside the city who thirst to "come! drink the water of life freely". (Rev. 22) 

You say calling out to the lost ceases in the New H&E, scripture says it continues.

I'll stick with scripture 

Again, what you re saying is CONTRARY to what the Bible teaches. God appointed A day on which He will JUDGE the world..." (Acts 17:31). That means that "on judgment day" the world as we know it will END. Jesus said that the gospel of the kingdom will be preached into all the world, then the END will come" (Matt. 24:14).

Therefore, if ALL eschatological propheices were fulfilled in AD 70, there would be no more need for preaching the gospel and all that is written in Rev. 21 would have been fulfilled as well.

I am curious do you partake of the Lords Supper? If you do why do you do it?

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Yes I do.

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that Day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matt. 26:29; Mk. 14:25; Lk. 22:16-18)

Since A.D. 70, Christ takes the Lord's Supper with us in a new way, i.e., with new meaning. The Lord's Supper is no longer a somber remembrance, but it is a celebration feast. 

It is the "Wedding supper of the Lamb" 

So you partake the Lord's Supper in his Father's kingdom, right? Can you tell me where this kingdom is? Isn't this the place where there is NO MORE pain nor crying nor dying.... (Rev. 21:1-5)?

Christ COMMANDED his disciples to partake of the Lord's Supper to proclaim his death TILL he comes (1 Cor. 11:26). 

Therefore, you PARTAKE of the Lord's Supper either as you said the "wedding supper of the Lord AT the Father's kingdom" or you PARTAKE of the Lord's supper to PROCLAIM his death TILL he comes.

Which is it Parousia70?

Ed

franklin · Feb 18, 2003

Hi y'all, I'm a little late on entering into the discussion at hand so I just thought I'd throw my hat in the ring for what it's worth and greetings to you all in His wonderful name.......

Clearly, Jesus taught that the timing of His Parousia would be in the first century. His disciples also believed He would come again in the first century. Clearly, those were the last days. If we are in the last days, I would have to ask, the last days of what?

John the baptist speaking to the Jews of his day:

Matthew 3:2, "...Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near." Luke 3:7,9, "Then said he to the multitude..O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laidevery tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

Jesus speaking to His twelve Apostles (telling them to preach to Israel)

Matthew 10:7, "...preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven has drawn near. " Matthew 10:23, "...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."

Notice Jesus told these 12 apostles that they would not have completed preaching to first-century Israel when the Son of man comes, which was during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 

Why would Jesus tell them they would not have completed preaching to first century Israel until the Son of man comes? 

edpobre · Feb 19, 2003

Yesterday at 10:24 PM franklin said this in Post #98

Clearly, Jesus taught that the timing of His Parousia would be in the first century.

Jesus did NOT teach that the timing of his second coming is in the first century. This is only what Preterists THINK of what the scriptures mean.

His disciples also believed He would come again in the first century.

There is NO indication in the Bible that the disciples believed this. Nevertheless, whether the disciples believed that Jesus would come in the first century or not does NOT make the belief that Jesus CAME in AD 70 true.

Clearly, those were the last days. If we are in the last days, I would have to ask, the last days of what?

We are in the "last days" BEFORE the end of the world  or Judgment Day (2 Peter 3:7,10) or the second coming of Christ (Matt. 24:30; 1 Thes. 4:16; 2 Thes. 1:7-8). Jesus called it "beginning of sorrows" (Matt. 24:8) or "at the very doors" (Matt. 24:33).

If one day to God is 1000 years to men (2 Peter 3:8), then "last days" to God could mean "thousand years" to men.

John the baptist speaking to the Jews of his day:

Matthew 3:2, "...Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven has drawn near." Luke 3:7,9, "Then said he to the multitude..O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laidevery tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

This verse does NOT say anything about the second coming of Jesus or judgment day occurring in the first century.

Jesus speaking to His twelve Apostles (telling them to preach to Israel)

Matthew 10:7, "...preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven has drawn near. " Matthew 10:23, "...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."

Notice Jesus told these 12 apostles that they would not have completed preaching to first-century Israel when the Son of man comes, which was during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Jesus was NOT talking about preaching ONLY to the first-century Israel. When Jesus comes again, the preaching of the gospel to all cities of modern-day Israel will STILL not have been completed with all the wars going on around Israel today.

Why would Jesus tell them they would not have completed preaching to first century Israel until the Son of man comes?

According to apostle Paul,  the WISDOM of God is HIDDEN in mystery (1 Cor. 2:7) which, according to Jesus, is GIVEN only to his DISCIPLES to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

The Bible is VERY clear about the second coming of Christ:

1) God appointed a DAY on which to JUDGE the world by Jesus (Acts 17:31). Of that DAY and HOUR, no one knows except the Father ONLY (Mark 13:32);

2) The heavens and the earth that NOW exist are reserved for fire UNTIL the DAY of Judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7);

3) The DAY of the Lord (Judgment DAY) will come like a thief in the night (no one knows) in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be BURNED up (2 Peter 3:10);

4) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will SEE the Son of Man COMING on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matt. 24:30; Acts 1:11);

5) In flaming FIRE taking vengeance on those who do NOT know God, and on those who do NOT obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These will be PUNISHED with everlasting destruction when he comes, in that DAY (2 Thes. 1:8-10);

6) And Jesus will send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they will gather TOGETHER his ELECT from the four winds, fom one end of heaven to another (Matt. 24:31);

7) For the Lord himself will descend ... with the trumpet of God. And the DEAD "IN" Christ will RISE first. Then we who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up TOGETHER WITH them (the risen dead) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What happens to those who are "IN" Christ (dead and alive) at the INSTANT of the last TRUMPET? Apostle Paul explains in 1 Cor. 15:51-53, thus:

(51)"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall NOT ALL sleep (die), but we shall ALL be CHANGED -

(52)in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the TRUMPET will sound, and the dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE (the living "IN" Christ) shall be CHANGED.

(53)For this CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION, and this MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY."

What happens AFTER Judgment Day? Apostle John describes what happens in Rev. 20:2:6, thus:

1) The Devil and Satan is BOUND for a thousand years;

2) The Devil and Satan is CAST into a bottomless pit so that he should deceive the nations NO MORE till the thousand years is finished;

3) Those who MET Jesus in the air (1 Thes. 4:16-17) shall REIGN with Christ a thousand years;

4) The rest of the DEAD (those who remained dead and those who died on judgment day) will NOT live again until the thousand years is finished.

From these verses, we CAN reasonably CONCLUDE that Judgment Day or the COMING of Christ did NOT happen in AD 70 because:

1) The PREACHING of the gospel of the kingdom CONTINUES. Jesus SAID that the gospel of the kingdom will be PREACHED into ALL the world..., and then the END will COME (Matt. 24:14). Ungodly men  are supposed to die when "the END" comes ;

2) Satan has NOT stopped working since the alleged coming of Christ in AD 70. He is supposed to be BOUND in the bottomless pit for a thousand years when "the END" comes;

3) The heavens and the earth that then existed BEFORE  70  AD are still the SAME heaven and earth that we see TODAY. The heavens and the earth that NOW exist are supposed to PASS away when "the END" comes.  

Recent archaelogical findings PROVE that the earth that existed during Jesus' time is STILL the SAME earth that exists TODAY.

Why anyone would THINK that Christ CAME in 70 AD and LOSE the chance to IMMORTALITY and REIGN with Jesus, is beyond me!

Ed

franklin · Feb 19, 2003

Howdy Ed, Thank you for your post and comments brother.  I don't really have that much time at this moment to go through all of your quotes in your post but I must compliment you on your great efforts in refuting my premise to a futuristic return of Christ. 

your quotes at the end of your post:

The heavens and the earth that then existed BEFORE  70  AD are still the SAME heaven and earth that we see TODAY. The heavens and the earth that NOW exist are supposed to PASS away when "the END" comes.  

Recent archaelogical findings PROVE that the earth that existed during Jesus' time is STILL the SAME earth that exists TODAY.

Why anyone would THINK that Christ CAME in 70 AD and LOSE the chance to IMMORTALITY and REIGN with Jesus, is beyond me!

My question to you is, why would anyone think that Jesus taught anything less then the fulfillment of all the prophecies during the lifetime of His contemporaries?  Why are believers today looking for a physical king and a physical kingdom just like the Jews of the first century?   Do you believe that Christ is reigning now?  Why do you continue to interpret the 1000 years as literal years? Here is a brief article from David Curtis and then I'll try to cover the rest of your post sometime this week.

How heaven and earth passed away, by David Curtis

Question: Has heaven and earth passed away? Ridiculous you say? Let us ask another question: Do you believe the Old Covenant has been done away? I dare say you will say it has. Few believers in Jesus would deny he has established his New Covenant. If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away! Please read the words of Jesus:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).

Did you notice that Jesus said heaven and earth had to pass away before the law could pass?!? Yes, he really did say it; please, get your scripture right now and read it for yourself! Has the heaven and earth passed away? Well, obviously, physical heaven and earth haven't been destroyed. But read the text again will you? Jesus DID say until heaven and earth pass away the Old Law could not pass. Our choices here are limited. If we understand the "heaven and earth" as literal, physical heaven and earth then this means the Old Law is still in effect. Simply put the argument would go like this: If heaven and earth had to pass before the Old Law could pass; and if heaven and earth refers to literal, physical heaven and earth, then, since literal, physical heaven and earth still exist, [have not passed], it must be true that the Old Law has not passed. A person could say the Law here is the Law of Jesus; but this will not work because Jesus had not yet died to confirm his New Covenant. He was living under the Old Law at the time also. The Jews standing there were not concerned with the passing of Jesus' law. They did not believe he even had one! They were concerned with the Old Law! Finally, if this is speaking about the passing of Christ's law it contradicts the verses in the New Testament that teach Jesus' word will never pass away in Matthew 24:35.

On the other hand, if we understand the "heaven and earth" as figurative language, referring not to physical creation, but to something else, it is possible that this "heaven and earth" could pass away, allowing for the passing of the Law.

We have Jesus' own words as to when all prophecy was to be fulfilled. In Luke 21:22 our Lord spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem and said "These be the days of vengeance in which all things that are written must be fulfilled." In verse 32 he emphatically said "this generation will not pass away until all things take place." Verse 33 contains Jesus' statement that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will by no means pass away." In Luke 21:20-22. Jesus is speaking here of the destruction of Jerusalem, an event that was to occur forty years from the time that he spoke.

Luke 21 thus contains the identical elements of Matthew 5:17-18; the passing of heaven and earth, and the fulfillment of all prophecy emphatically placed within the context of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD! Note the perfect correlation of Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Revelation and Luke 21. They all tell of the time when all prophecy would be fulfilled; they all identify that time as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD!

The Jewish idiom "the law and the prophets" in Matthew 5:17-18 means the totality of the Old Testament revelation. Jesus said he did not come to destroy it but fulfill it. Jesus is saying here, in Matthew 5, that the old law has to be fulfilled, every jot and every tittle has to be fulfilled, before it can pass away. If 2 Peter 3 is based upon the Old Testament prophets, and it is, and if 2 Peter 3 has not been fulfilled, then we are still under the Old Covenant law. That is quite simple. Do you believe that we are in the New Covenant? If we are then the Old Covenant must have passed away. And if the Old Covenant has passed then 2 Peter 3 has been fulfilled. Let us explore the definition of the heaven and earth. Lets start by reading 2 Peter 3. Most Christians would say that this is the end of the world as we know it, the destruction of planet earth. It sure sounds that way doesn't it? That is how I had always seen it.

One of the major areas of difficulty in understanding correctly "heaven and earth" in the New Testament is the misunderstanding of how God referred to nations by this phrase in the Old Testament. Seeing the biblical concept of "heaven and earth" in the Old Testament will help us greatly in correctly understanding its use in New Testament passages. Rather than to assume that each time we encounter the phrase, we are to immediately think of this physical universe and its elements.

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