Did Jesus preach "hell"?

[Clare73]

Yes, by "he" I meant Paul. The gospels had not been written when Paul was writing the epistles, so I don't know if he had knowledge of that particular connection or not.

Remembering that Paul got his teaching from no man but from Jesus only.

 

[Clare73]

Scripture aside,

Scripture is never aside.

Jesus was a Jew. Would he have ministered about an afterlife according to Jewish tradition? If so that would be Sheol would it not?

Jesus' teaching on the afterlife would have been according to the Father, not according to the Jews.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No .. Jesus proclaimed that the kingdom of heaven was at hand .

 

[bornofGod888]

Remembering that Paul got his teaching from no man but from Jesus only.

Yet, Paul not only quoted Luke's gospel directly, but he also regularly quoted from the Old Testament scriptures. IOW, Paul's gospel didn't bypass the scriptures.

 

[Clare73]

If the gospels had not yet been written when Paul was writing his epistles,
then how did Paul directly quote Luke's gospel when writing his first epistle to Timothy?

"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." - I Timothy 5:18

Here, Paul cited two scriptures.

In the first instance, he cited Deuteronomy 25:4, where we read:

"Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." - Deuteronomy 25:4

In the second instance, he cited Luke 10:7, where we read:

"And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house." - Luke 10:7

In fact, the same exact underlying Greek word, "misthos" is used in both instances. IOW, in Luke's gospel, "misthos" is translated as "hire" and in I Timothy, "misthos" is translated as "reward":

[URL]http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3408&t=KJV[/URL]

It is also found in Mt 10:10.

With such being the case, how did Paul directly cite Luke's gospel if it wasn't in circulation yet? Of course, the correct answer to this question is that Luke's gospel was already in circulation at the time of Paul's writing of his first epistle to Timothy and Paul cited from it directly as "scripture".

So Paul is referring to both Matthew's and Luke's gospels as Scripture,
and then Peter grouped Paul's writings with "the other Scriptures." (2Pe 3:16)

So the record indicates that even while they were alive, the early church placed the gospels and Paul's writings on the same level of authority as the God-breathed writings of the OT.

 

[bornofGod888]

It is also found in Mt 10:10.

There, however, it reads "for the workman is worthy of his MEAT" and there is an entirely different underlying Greek word used ("trophē"):

Greek Lexicon :: G5160 (KJV)

As such, it was Luke's gospel which Paul was citing and this makes sense, seeing how they were travelling companions on some of his missionary journeys.

So Paul is referring to both Matthew's and Luke's gospels as Scripture, and then Peter grouped Paul's writings with "the other Scriptures." (2Pe 3:16)

So the record indicates that even while they were alive, the early church placed the gospels and Paul's writings on the same level of authority as the God-breathed writings of the OT.

Specifically Luke's gospel, but, yes, your point is valid.

 

[Clare73]

"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." - I Timothy 5:18

It is also found in Mt 10:10.

There, however, it reads "for the workman is worthy of his MEAT"
and there is an entirely different underlying Greek word used ("trophē"):

Greek Lexicon :: G5160 (KJV)

As such, it was Luke's gospel which Paul was citing and this makes sense, seeing how they were travelling companions on some of his missionary journeys.

So Paul is referring to both Matthew's and Luke's gospels as Scripture, and then Peter grouped Paul's writings with "the other Scriptures." (2Pe 3:16)

So the record indicates that even while they were alive, the early church placed the gospels and Paul's writings on the same level of authority as the God-breathed writings of the OT.

Specifically Luke's gospel, but, yes, your point is valid.

Trophe of Mt 10:10 means "nourishment," and misthos of 1Ti 5:18 and Lk 10:7 means "hire," "wage," "reward."
(Young's Analytical Concordance)

So you don't think "support," "hire," "wage," "keep," "living," "food" are all good words for trophe of Mt 10:10,
making it equivalent to the misthos of 1Ti 5:18 and Lk 10:7?

And while Paul was referring to the statement in Luke's gospel (10:7--misthos),
is its equivalency not also in Matthew's gospel (10:10--trophe),
placing Matthew's gospel also on the same level of authority as the God-breathed writings of the OT?

 

[1Feather]

Scripture is never aside.

It is in the context of my remarks. Please don't presume.

Jesus' teaching on the afterlife would have been according to the Father, not according to the Jews.

That isn't really an answer that can be qualified by the evidence in that Jesus did not write a single verse in what is today's new testament.

However, Jesus was born under Jewish law and was raised as a Jew. He taught in the temple and therefore the Jewish Bible would be relevant as would that what he would have ministered related to Sheol. Prior to the translations that referred to Hades and Hell.

 

[Clare73]

Scripture aside,

Scripture is never aside.

It is in the context of my remarks. Please don't presume.

I understand.

But an important principle is being overlooked in the context of your remarks.

And that is: there is no understanding the meaning of Scripture apart from itself.

Our conjectures outside the Scriptures do not give us the meaning of the Scriptures.

Jesus was a Jew. Would he have ministered about an afterlife according to Jewish tradition? If so that would be Sheol would it not?

Jesus' teaching on the afterlife would have been according to the Father, not according to the Jews.

That isn't really an answer that can be qualified by the evidence in that Jesus did not write a single verse in what is today's new testament.

Are you saying your conjecture is equivalent to the testimony of the apostle in the gospel?

However, Jesus was born under Jewish law and was raised as a Jew. He taught in the temple and therefore the Jewish Bible would be relevant as would that what he would have ministered related to Sheol. Prior to the translations that referred to Hades and Hell.

The testimony of the apostle in the gospel is that Jesus taught of the everlasting fire of Gehenna.

There was fire in the Hades of Sheol (Luke 16:24), but it is not stated there as everlasting, as it is in the gospel.

 

[seashale76]

Sheol = Hades = the grave
Hades =/= Gehenna
Gehenna = the lake of fire

The KJV translates Hell for the words Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, while in other translations, the word Hell is only used for Gehenna.

 

[Clare73]

Sheol = Hades = the grave
Hades =/= Gehenna
Gehenna = the lake of fire

The KJV translates Hell for the words Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, while in other translations, the word Hell is only used for Gehenna.

The KJV mistranslated Hades as hell.

There were two parts to Sheol:
1) Paradise = place of the righteous
2) Hades = place of the wicked

In the NT, there is Gehenna = hell.

 

[Knee V]

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), "Hades" was the Greek word chosen to be the translation of the Hebrew "Sheol". The writers of the New Testament, who used the LXX and who ministered to those who also used the LXX, used "Hades" when writing the New Testament to mean what it meant in the LXX.

Sheol = Hades = Hell
Gehenna = Lake of Fire

http://www.christianforums.com/t7774282-2/#post64147748

 

[Gregory Thompson]

In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), "Hades" was the Greek word chosen to be the translation of the Hebrew "Sheol". The writers of the New Testament, who used the LXX and who ministered to those who also used the LXX, used "Hades" when writing the New Testament to mean what it meant in the LXX.

Sheol = Hades = Hell
Gehenna = Lake of Fire

http://www.christianforums.com/t7774282-2/#post64147748

okay then show me this church that charges headlong at the gates of hell and those gates do not prevail .

 

[Joykins]

Seeing how Paul directly quoted from Luke's gospel as "scripture", I believe that it can also reasonably be proven or at least heavily suggested that the other gospels were already in circulation at that time, too. In fact, I believe that Luke pretty much told us as much himself. Yes, his gospel begins thusly

"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they :delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightiest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed." - Luke 1:1-4

Certainly Paul and whoever put the synoptic gospels into final form were drawing from the same sources (whatever went into Mark, and Q, probably, as well as sources we don't know about). What I can't say in certainty was that Paul was aware of the parable of the sheep and the goats specifically. He doesn't quote it. Then again, why would he?

 

[CherubRam]

I've been looking into the Koine Greek New Testament. Especially at the word "hell"

For instance

Matthew 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

I can see here that it says γεέννῃ when referencing "hell". γεέννῃ is the dative case of γέεννα (Gehenna)

In the Judaic (oral?) tradition of Gehenna (or as its called in Hebrew גהנם [GeHinnom]), which is defined as such:

purgatory, the spiritual realm in which the souls are cleansed from the blemishes brought about by their conduct while on Earth

A Rabbi describes what Gehenna is further:
Do Jews Believe in Hell? - What Is the Jewish Belief on Hell? - Death & Mourning

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Now, Jesus was a Jew and he preached to a Jewish audience. So when he used Gehenna, he meant the Jewish tradition of it.

In all cases where he mentions "hell", he is using "Gehenna", which does not mean "hell" or "hades" in the traditional sense.. more like a purifying realm or something.

I am confused, because I was always taught that Hell was real, and Jesus taught it. But did he?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

EDIT: If this has been covered before, please point me in the direction of the thread!!!

Orthodox Jews do not believe in a place called Hell.
Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)

Ha-des (hadez) [[Gr Haides ]] 1 Gr. Myth. a. The home of the dead, beneath the earth. b The god of the underworld.

She-ol (sheol) [[Heb shaal , to dig]] A place in the depths of the earth conceived of as the dwelling of the dead.

Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; it then was a place of constant burning of refuge.

Topheth is believed to be a location in Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where the Canaanites sacrificed children to the god Moloch by burning them alive.

Isaiah 30:33
Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready for the king. Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of burning sulfur, sets it ablaze.

Jeremiah 7:31-32
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.