Did Jesus make wine?

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EastChief

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This has been gnawing at me for quite some time. I work with some "Christians" who claim that Jesus did not make wine - it was grape juice since it did not have time to ferment. When I pointed out that he could raise people from the dead and do other various miracles, so why could he not make wine instantly? Their response was - he WOULDN'T make wine.

I've been trying to research this myself and and seem to only find arguments about the original Hebrew or Greek words which mean grape juice and not wine. I was just hoping someone here could present a definitive answer to this. Perhaps there isn't one, but I'm just sick of my co-workers berating others for drinking a glass or two of wine.

Thanks!
 
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Nazaroo

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EastChief said:
This has been gnawing at me for quite some time. I work with some "Christians" who claim that Jesus did not make wine - it was grape juice since it did not have time to ferment. When I pointed out that he could raise people from the dead and do other various miracles, so why could he not make wine instantly? Their response was - he WOULDN'T make wine.

I've been trying to research this myself and and seem to only find arguments about the original Hebrew or Greek words which mean grape juice and not wine. I was just hoping someone here could present a definitive answer to this. Perhaps there isn't one, but I'm just sick of my co-workers berating others for drinking a glass or two of wine.
Thanks!
One important point is to face up to the precariousness and fragility of your own position.

The only place where it can even be claimed that Jesus 'appears' to approve of 'wine' is at this wedding feast in the 'gospel' of John.

In the other synoptic gospels, Jesus is conservatively portrayed as a law abiding Jew in His lifestyle. The evidence of His 'drinking' alcoholic beverages or doing drugs for recreational purposes is weak at best, based upon Jesus' typically coy reply to accusations of His enemies, contrasting His ministry with that of the aesetic Nazarite John the Baptist and his reclusive followers in the desert.

When we come to examine the rest of John, we are first of all struck by its uniqueness in both the content, and the personality of Jesus as John presents Him.

The Jesus of John and the events surrounding Him are quite surrealistic, and Jesus' dialogue is so close in style to John's narrative that people have often found it difficult to decide where Jesus stops speaking, and John starts, as in John 3:16, where It seems rather obvious that John has begun speaking, and the incident with Nicodemus has ended, but where 'Red Letter' editions can't make up their mind if Jesus is continuing a long speech or John is now expounding the gospel in his narrative/commentary.

Similarly, when we come to the events described in John, there is the eiree feeling that parables in the synoptic gospels have become literal events in John, like the parable of Lazarus (Luke) versus the raising of Lazarus (John), the absence of such an important event in all the other gospels! If the 'SIGNS' that John speaks of Jesus doing were literal events, why are NONE of them recorded in the synoptics?

When we get to the story in John of Jesus turning water into wine, again the contextless anonymity, and the parable-like nature of the event (a 'feastmaster' who tests the wine, the 'ten' pots etc.) again gives it a spooky feeling of a metaphoric story, not meant to be taken at face value, but to be deeply penetrated and analyzed for its symbolic (SIGN) content and esoteric (metaphorical) meaning.

And like the parables found in the other synoptic gospels, many events in John's gospel have the form and function of actual parables: The incident of the Woman at the Well, as a foreshadowing of the salvation of the Samaritans in Acts, or the feeding of the 5000, as a foreshadowing of the 5000 saved at Pentacost. These 'SIGNS' are clearly meant to be mystical 'events' which hint of things that have nothing to do with Jesus earthly ministry, but rather events after the ressurrection.

Likewise, the story of the ten empty pots (ten Lost tribes of Israel, the diaspora spread among the Greeks) filled with new 'better' wine (think of the analogy of the old/new 'wine' given in the Synoptics, clearly bespeaks not of physical wine or physical pots, but of the New Covenant and Wedding of the Bridegroom/bride.

"My time is not yet come" and other clues in the dialogue point not to an event in Jesus' lifetime ministry, but to a veiled 'event' in the history of Christianity after the ressurrection. To fail to make these connections is to completely fail to understand John's 'gospel' and what it really is.

John's 'gospel' isn't a gospel at all in the sense of the other historical gospels, but is a 'gospel on the gospel' a deep esoteric and metaphorical interpretation of the Gospel filled with Christian mysticism, and meant to inspire us to see the magic underneath physical and historical events.

The story of Jesus turning the water into 'wine' cannot be used to demonstrate Jesus' approval of alcoholic beverages, because it really has nothing at all to do with this, but it has the purpose of speaking secretly about the 'wine' of the gospel reaching the 'Lost House of Israel' "to whom I have been sent".

You are seeking scriptures or arguments to support social drinking or the recreational use of drugs. But there are none that will stand up to careful scrutiny in the light of Paul's teachings:

For instance, Paul said "avoid sexual immorality" five times, and most Christians get it.

Paul said "Be sober!" over thirty times, but due to a love of booze, most Christians DONT get it.
 
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HumbleMan

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Alcohol in itself is not sinful, nor is it to drink every so often. But to let it become master of your life is a sin.

Something else to consider, that while you may not have a problem with moderation, others around you may. This includes eating out at restaurants. We are told to not lead others into sin, and there's always a chance that the person at the table next to you may be a recovering alcoholic.
 
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BigNorsk

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No matter what you do, people will condemn you.

Luk 7:33-34 NET For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!' (34) The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

Clearly Jesus drank wine (and/or strong drink=beer), he clearly made wine, and wine was clearly used in the feasts of the Jews which Jesus observed. Wine was often referred to in positive ways. Drunkeness was not.

You run into pietistic present day pharisees all the time. It is true that we aren't to do things that cause our weaker brothers to stumble. Many weaker brothers fall into the idolatry of money; therefore, if we aren't to drink wine because there are people who are drunkards we shouldn't use money because many worship it. If there are people who are gluttons we should not eat. If there are people who speed we should not drive.

Hmmm. That doesn't seem to me to be very workable or even consistent with God's word.

Maybe we should drink but not get drunk, use money but not be greedy, eat but not be a glutton, drive but not speed. In that way our example will encourage our weaker brother to live properly. Yes, I think that's it. It seems to me to be much more consistent than the "do not" people. The Bible even mentions them.

Col 2:20-23 NET If you have died with Christ to the elemental spirits of the world, why do you submit to them as though you lived in the world? (21) "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!" (22) These are all destined to perish with use, founded as they are on human commands and teachings. (23) Even though they have the appearance of wisdom with their self-imposed worship and false humility achieved by an unsparing treatment of the body — a wisdom with no true value — they in reality result in fleshly indulgence.

Marv
 
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Nazaroo

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No Christian that I have met has 'perfect' doctrine.
That would make all Christians heretics, until their knowledge is perfected.

The key is flexibility and a willingness to learn, and be corrected.
But if you are going to remove the speck from someone else's eye,
please leave the log in your own eye at the door first.

I am firmly convinced that Jesus the Christ indeed came in the flesh. The meaning and purpose of the book of John is another matter, not directly related to the incarnation clearly described in the historical book(s) of Luke/Acts. While we are at it, I also interpret much of the words of Jesus recorded in John as literally true, which is more than many Christians can say, who have either misunderstood them, ignored them, or have never read them.

I have spent many years studying John, my favourite book in the New Testament, and I am sure that sentiment is shared by many Christians.
But I don't claim to have fully understood the book, or that what I have learned is error-free.

Perhaps you can shed some light on what you found difficult to understand in my previous post, or what you found you so strongly disagreed with.
We could start a thread on that topic and discuss it.

Peace to you, your brother in Christ, Nazaroo.
 
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FreezBee

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Nazaroo said:
The only place where it can even be claimed that Jesus 'appears' to approve of 'wine' is at this wedding feast in the 'gospel' of John.
hristians get it.

.....

Paul said "Be sober!" over thirty times, but due to a love of booze, most Christians DONT get it.

Ooh, Nazaroo, you know I don't like to do this, but Jesus instituted the eucharist, where wine was drunk - and certainly, Jesus never spoke out against having a glass or two!

As for Paul, well, "Be sober!" does not imply "Be completely dry!".

(Remember, Luther wrote: "Sin bravely!").

Okay, with this out of the way, as the heretic I am, I follow Nazaroo in his interpretation of John as a string of parables.

We could interpret the turning water into wine as that baptism with water works the same as baptism with the (wine) Spirit.

Also in the Qumran community only the elite were allowed to drink wine, the lower ranks were only allowed to drink water. Turning water into wine would then mean that all were members of the elite.

The metaphorical interpretations have the advantage of relevance for us today. To be honest (and heretic?), what is the value of the miracles of Jesus for us today? It's nearly 2,000 years ago, so if we do not interprete the miracle stories as parables, we end up with the gospels as mere ly stories about, what you could make people believe back then, they will have only historical and comical value.

Well, that's how I see it :)


May you all have a merry Christmas!

- FreezBee
 
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winsome

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Nazaroo said:
One important point is to face up to the precariousness and fragility of your own position.
And your own Nazaroo

Nazaroo said:
And like the parables found in the other synoptic gospels, many events in John's gospel have the form and function of actual parables: The incident of the Woman at the Well, as a foreshadowing of the salvation of the Samaritans in Acts, or the feeding of the 5000, as a foreshadowing of the 5000 saved at Pentacost. These 'SIGNS' are clearly meant to be mystical 'events' which hint of things that have nothing to do with Jesus earthly ministry, but rather events after the ressurrection.

I don't think the feeding of the 5,000 in Mark was a parable. Oh and John has the same number as Mark. And it was 3,000 saved at Pentecost not 5,000.

Nazaroo said:
Likewise, the story of the ten empty pots (ten Lost tribes of Israel, the diaspora spread among the Greeks)
Well 6 pots actually, but perhaps 4 tribes had been found by then.
 
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winsome

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EastChief said:
This has been gnawing at me for quite some time. I work with some "Christians" who claim that Jesus did not make wine - it was grape juice since it did not have time to ferment. When I pointed out that he could raise people from the dead and do other various miracles, so why could he not make wine instantly? Their response was - he WOULDN'T make wine.

I've been trying to research this myself and and seem to only find arguments about the original Hebrew or Greek words which mean grape juice and not wine. I was just hoping someone here could present a definitive answer to this. Perhaps there isn't one, but I'm just sick of my co-workers berating others for drinking a glass or two of wine.

Thanks!

According to a book I have Bible Manners and Customs "The people of this land know nothing of unfermented wine. There is no custom of drinking newly strained grape juice"

It was only Nazarites like John the Baptist who were forbidden alcohol.
 
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Natman

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BigNorsk said:
Maybe we should drink but not get drunk, use money but not be greedy, eat but not be a glutton, drive but not speed. In that way our example will encourage our weaker brother to live properly. Yes, I think that's it. It seems to me to be much more consistent than the "do not" people. The Bible even mentions them.

Hmmm. You have brought up a good point.

I have given up drinking alcoholic beverages years ago based on the "do not cause your brother to stumble" philosophy. It seems that what you present here would actually present a BETTER witness.

If we want others to learn how to manage their money in a Godly manner, then we should manage our money (actually God's money) in an open and Godly manner so that it may be seen by others, not quit using money altogether.

If we want to teach others how not to become gluttonous with our food, we should eat responsibly and with gratefulness, stopping before we are over-stuffed but nourished, not starve ourselves (to death).

If we want other to see us as Christians that follow scripture and submit to our civil authorities, we should obey the laws and not drive our cars recklessly or speed. We should not give up our cars altogether.

If we want to teach others how NOT to over consume wine, then we should not be afraid to drink wine only to the point that it does not affect our sobriety. (I would still hold that other forms of refined alcohol or recreational drug use would not be accepted because they have only the purpose of dulling ones sobriety.)

I have more to say, but must leave for a while.
 
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5stringJeff

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There are a few passages that make it clear, to me, that God does not forbid drinking alcohol. Most have been mentioned, but I'll summarize:

1. Jesus creating wine in Cana. For those of us who, along with 1,900 years of orthodox Christians, believe that John's gospel is historical and authentic, there is no reason not to believe that Jesus turned the water into wine. Moreover, the master of the feast commended the groom at the wedding for having such good wine.

2. Jesus drank wine while establishing the Lord's Supper.

3. Jesus was called a drunkard (here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=18&end_verse=20&version=47&context=context and here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...e=33&end_verse=35&version=47&context=context). Hard to be called a drunkard if you're not drinking wine.

4. Paul instructed Timothy to drink wine for health purposes (here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=5&verse=23&version=47&context=verse). If there was an absolute prohibition on drinking alcohol, then Paul would be commanding Timothy to sin - in Scripture, no less!
 
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ebia

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winsome said:
According to a book I have Bible Manners and Customs "The people of this land know nothing of unfermented wine. There is no custom of drinking newly strained grape juice"
Indeed, they had no way of stopping the fermentation if they wanted to. Grape juice is a non-starter except for the few weeks a year when the grapes are fresh and you can drink it immediately it is pressed. If people actually did this, then they would have a term specifically for it.

The wedding story makes it quite clear that what Jesus supplied was wine, and good wine at that, not just grape juice.
 
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faiththatbreathes

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Yeah, that the guests could get drunk on.

And the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now." (John 2:9-10)

Apparently, the guests were a bit tipsy. And directly after this, John clearly states that this was a miracle performed by Jesus to reveal himself, not a parable told before Jesus's "time." Why would a parable be stated as being performed in Cana by Jesus? The effect was the faith of the disciples, not a lesson to be learned by all.

This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him. (John 2:11)

Being drunk on wine is severely reprimanded in scripture, yet drinking wine was an integral part of Biblical times, especially in such settings as weddings or ritual feasts. The only thing I can say to it is: balance in all things.

Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?


Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time? It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes . (Ecc. 7:16-18)
 
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Latreia

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gopjeff said:
There are a few passages that make it clear, to me, that God does not forbid drinking alcohol. Most have been mentioned, but I'll summarize:

3. Jesus was called a drunkard (here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=11&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=47&context=context

and here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=7&verse=33&end_verse=35&version=47&context=context). Hard to be called a drunkard if you're not drinking wine.

This is the most hilarious example of distortion of Bible verses to cast aspersions on Jesus. These two links are glaring examples of quotes of a few lines that are completely out of context with the verses leading up to them.

The poster would have you assume that "Jesus was called a drunkard" and says it twice!!!! What he doesn't say is that these quotes are from Jesus's own words, using analogies to demonstrate a lesson.

Here are links to the preceeding verses, which give us the true picture and not the juvenile attempts at distortions. I, for one, would like to have a link to the website that is promoting information like this with partial Bible quotes from selected verses that display degrading and false information if not shown in full context.

I can only think such a website must be malicious and anti-Christian. And I can't help wondering about the kind of person who would use it for their source of examples.

Here are the same two links to BibleGateway as the above, however, they do include the omissions of the previous verses in the chapters:

From Matthew:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2011:4-20%20;&version=47

From Luke:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%207:24-36;&version=47
 
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I hope this will help you out. In Bible times, water was unsafe to drink , in most cases. Therefore, it was necessary to sanitize the water by mixing it with wine (alcohol). The wine that Jesus made at the wedding feast, was alcoholic in nature. This is known for several reasons. First, the customs of Jesus day were to serve alcoholic drinks at a wedding feast. Traditionally, the best wine (most fermented) was served first. The last wine served was usually water mixed with wine. This is why the ruler remarked as he did. Secondly, the Greek word (oinos) means wine and has it's origin from the Hebrew word yahyin, which means, "effervesce ... intoxication - banqueting, wine". There is a different phrase used in the New Testament for grape juice, usually "fruit of the vine" .

Hope this helps.
 
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Nazaroo

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Lets get rid of the non-scientific myths.

(1) alcohol itself is NOT a food. It is a poison, and an industrial solvent.

(2) alcohol IS a drug. It is an addictive drug, which is directly linked to more unfortunate crimes and problems and injuries and deaths than any other single cause, except smoking.

(3) Water in the Middle East is far more healthy than water in North America. In Palestine and the desert, it comes from wells, and springs, as recorded in the bible. It is not at all like the polluted tropical rivers in Mexico. People in Palestine were not 'required' to drink alcoholic wine because there was no water. This is just non-historical rubbish. Even today, most North African and Arabian countries have banned alcohol for many hundreds of years, and they certainly DON'T rely upon 'wine' to provide critical water needs in the desert.

(4) Handling alcohol is NOT like handling money as an example to gamblers, or eating in a healthy fashion to assist gluttons by example. This is a ridiculous myth. By the same argument, you could 'handle' sexual immorality responsibly, by having sex with hookers moderately and wearing a condom, or by gambling on weekends, or by pigging out once a month and fasting.

The better analogy is abstinance, since the goal is sobriety. If I say to my son, don't fall off the dangerous cliff, I DON'T mean dance all around the edge as close as you think you can handle.

If I want to teach others about responsible handling of money, I DON'T spend it on recreational drugs, when children are starving even in my own neighbourhood. If I want to be a good example to a gambler, I DON'T gamble moderately, any more than idol-worshipping moderately can in any way be construed as fulfilling the commandment not to commit Idolatry.

(5) It is not impossible to prevent fermentation or preserve fruit, in the Middle East or anywhere else, there are multiple ways of doing so, which have been known since time immemorial. There are jars of jam, concentrated juices, and frozen cans on every shelf in every store in the world. And this was true (except for the frozen orange juice) since the times of the Greeks.

Very poor analogies people.

Now lets look at scripture:

(1) It is a linguistic FACT that the Greek word 'oinos' is used to refer to both unfermented and fermented juice. When necessary, or when the context is unclear, the distinction is made using the adjective 'new' or 'old'. This is demonstrable in the New Testament itself, in three obvious places: Luke 5:38, Matt 9:17, Mark 2:22.

(2) It is also a linguistic FACT that the Greek word 'oinos' is used to refer to both unfermented and fermented juice outside the New Testament independantly.

For instance, Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) in Meteorologica clearly refers to grape juice or 'must' (squeezings, "gleukos" ), as one of the kinds of 'oinos' ('wine').
"For some kinds of wine (oinos) for example, 'must' (gleukos), solidify when boiled....the sweet grape beverage ("glukus") which though called 'oinos' has no effects of alcohol, for it does taste like wine, but does not intoxicate like regular (Greek) 'oinos'.
(Aristotle, Meteorologica 384. a. 4-5, 388. b.9-13, See also 388 a. 34 )
In this text Atristotle explicitly informs us that unfermented grape juice was called 'oinos', - 'wine', though it was non-alcoholic.

Likewise, Athenaeus, the Grammarian (A.D. 200) explains in his Banquet that:
The Mityleneans have a 'sweet wine' ('glukon oinon') what they called prodromos, and others call it protropos.. " Later on he recommends this sweet, unfermented 'protropos' for the dyspeptic: "Let him take sweet wine, either mixed with water or warmed, especially that kind called 'protropos', the sweet virgin 'glukus', as being good for the stomach; for sweet sweet oinos does not make the head heavy."
(Athenaeus, Banquet 1,54, 2,24,)
Here unfermented sweet wine ('glukos oinos') is called 'virgin' and 'lesbian' because its alcoholic potency is zero.

Christians too, refer to freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice as 'oinos'.
For example, Papias, bishop of Hierapolis at the close of the apostolic age, describes the current extravagant view of the millenium as a time when...
"...vines will grow each with ...ten thousand clusters on each tweig, and ten thouseand grapes in each cluster, and each grape, when crushed, witll yield 25 jars of 'oinos' (juice).
(Cited in Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5, 33, 3-4)

Likewise, the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint/LXX) translates the Hebrew word for grape-juice "tirosh" at least thirty-times using the Greek word 'oinos', without 'new'. (Ernest Gordon, Christ, the Apostles and Wine. Exegetical Studies Philidelphia 1947)


Now the four examples given above, when examined are ambiguous:

(1) The Wine at Cana is a SIGN, meant to represent the New Teaching (New Wine) poured into the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel (the Ten Pots).

(2) No scripture actually records Jesus drinking alcoholic wine, even at the Last Supper.

(3) Jesus answers accusations against Himself in His typical cagey way, as with the taxes to Caesar, and regarding His authority to do the things He does.

(4) Paul is probably referring to safe healthy grape-juice, not an alcoholic beverage.
 
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